Details about the Heathcare reform package that's being voted on Sunday?

[ragingclue]

We've got a whole subculture here in the states who have perfected mooching to the point where their aim in life is to never hold a legitimate job.... We just made it easier for each and every one of them to justify why NOT to get off their asses and contribute to society.

I agree that catastrophic and life-threatening care should be issued regardless, but other than that, they can go ahead and contribute to society before wasting the money of those who have actually made something of their lives. And it's not just about the money, either. The quality of care will go down, so instead of a majority of the country receiving adequate care, and a minority not receiving adequate care, we'll now have 100% of the population receiving subpar care. Is that really a solution?

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by cycler

I make $165,000 a year. My wife makes $95,000 a year and she will be at $105,000 within a year. Yes I am over the $250K mark. However here is some food for thought and maybe you will understand why Im angry that I would have to pay a little more in taxes to help all those needy folks who already benefit from my taxes right now.

1) I have my own business with a partner for the last 10 years and we each took out $500K to help grow the business
2) Im still paying my student loans as is my wife. Total left $30,000
3) I have a mortgage
4) Two car payments
5) Motorcycle payment
6) 1 child to raise and another one on the way so I have to put away for 2 college funds
7) put away money for retirement

Now take my first comment of the $500k that I took out as well as my partner did to help pay for the business. I as well as my partner are responsible for that money. If we cant repay it we lose everything. Our houses, our cars, our credit. If I do repay it society benefits because my taxes will help them. I am helping them now but will those same people be helping me if I lose my house. If I lose my cars. If i cant put away money for my childrens education. No they will not be there to help me. Instead the government will just suck more money out of others. So excuse me if I dont agree with the redistribution of wealth. I risk my life and money so the pond scum who dont contribute anything to society can have a better life. By the time Im taxed on my income and pay for my bills I will be on the same level as someone making $50K a year. Lets see $85,500 in taxes, $7,000 in cadillac tax on health care, $13,000 extra in taxes because I make over $250K combined with my wife. Thats $105,500 in taxes that I have to pay. And you think I need to pay more because i make a good living. Now dont forget my mortgage of $36K a year, my loan of $48K a year. My car payments of $13,440 a year, my motorcycle payment $3,600 a year, college fund for kids $20,000 a year. All that equals to $226,540. Im left with $33,460 a year until I repay my loan of $500k, my morgage of $36K a year and my kids college fund for the next 16-18 years. And ony then will I start really living. But you still think I need to give a few extra dollars to my fellow citizens.

Wouldn't you rather have your income taxes go to paying for healthcare to fellow citizens then where it goes now? Interest on foreign loans....

[shpirate87]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Wouldn't you rather have your income taxes go to paying for healthcare to fellow citizens then where it goes now? Interest on foreign loans....

You do realize that the two are not mutually exclusive and that the former will increase the latter?

[cycler]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Wouldn't you rather have your income taxes go to paying for healthcare to fellow citizens then where it goes now? Interest on foreign loans....

I dont mind my income tax going to pay for fellow citizens because not all have earned as I have. That being said, when is enough enough. How much do I have to give before its way to much. If 1/3 of my income isnt enough then thats to bad. I have a family that I take care of. My wife and I earn that money so we can enjoy life. Not divide it up amongst everyone so that we may all be equal. Im sorry Im not one of those do gooders. The government makes up new programs that use my tax dollars. But there has to be some sort of limit. Soon I will be living the same life as someone who makes 50K a year. So techinally if I can work less and make 50K and live like the guy who busts his ass and takes risks and makes $260k I might as well throw my business away and work as a manager at the GAP

[UncleWede]

I hear they give a killer discount at the Gap, and there's clothes for the whole family!!!!


j/k

[xbook]

Originally Posted by cycler

I dont mind my income tax going to pay for fellow citizens because not all have earned as I have. That being said, when is enough enough. How much do I have to give before its way to much. If 1/3 of my income isnt enough then thats to bad. I have a family that I take care of. My wife and I earn that money so we can enjoy life. Not divide it up amongst everyone so that we may all be equal. Im sorry Im not one of those do gooders. The government makes up new programs that use my tax dollars. But there has to be some sort of limit. Soon I will be living the same life as someone who makes 50K a year. So techinally if I can work less and make 50K and live like the guy who busts his ass and takes risks and makes $260k I might as well throw my business away and work as a manager at the GAP

Again with the outrageous hyperbole. Really, you'll be taxed 75% of your income?

[cycler]

Originally Posted by xbook

Again with the outrageous hyperbole. Really, you'll be taxed 75% of your income?

Let me explain something to you once and for all because I see you love using the term hyperbole. When our income is $260K a year and I pay $105,500 in taxes that for me my freind is enough. What I choose to with my HARD EARNED MONEY is my business. How I spend it is MY BUSINESS. Dont look at what I make and tell me that Im blowing things out of proportion. After my $105,500 is paid.....leave me alone. If I want to donate my money that my business. If I want to invest it, my business. But its people like you who think that counting others peoples money or rather hoping people like myself get taxed more so people like you can up your living standards. Once again I took loans out to build a business that is flourishing. I TOOK THE RISK NO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. And Im happy I can live the way I live in these economic times. But neither you or anyone else will be there to bail me out if my business flops and I cant pay the bills. But they will certainly be there when my business is doing well so that I can spread the wealth. Bottom line me and my family alone should reap the rewards not you or anyone else after I pay my taxes that equal $105,500 which Obama will raise. Your to busy telling me how I should spend my money or how not spend my money by making your comments "who told you to buy a 2010 bmw" None of your business. When the pond scum come out of the woodworks and actually work a little instead of sitting home and expecting handouts and then they see how difficult work is maybe just maybe they will stop blowing it on ridiculous and outlandish toys that others have who can afford it. Maybe I should be taxed a little more so that your state can get out of the shit hole also. But until then Mr. Socialist, go have a coke and a smile and SHUT THE FUCK UP

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Originally Posted by cycler

Let me explain something to you once and for all because I see you love using the term hyperbole. When our income is $260K a year and I pay $105,500 in taxes that for me my freind is enough. What I choose to with my HARD EARNED MONEY is my business. How I spend it is MY BUSINESS. Dont look at what I make and tell me that Im blowing things out of proportion. After my $105,500 is paid.....leave me alone. If I want to donate my money that my business. If I want to invest it, my business. But its people like you who think that counting others peoples money or rather hoping people like myself get taxed more so people like you can up your living standards. Once again I took loans out to build a business that is flourishing. I TOOK THE RISK NO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. And Im happy I can live the way I live in these economic times. But neither you or anyone else will be there to bail me out if my business flops and I cant pay the bills. But they will certainly be there when my business is doing well so that I can spread the wealth. Bottom line me and my family alone should reap the rewards not you or anyone else after I pay my taxes that equal $105,500 which Obama will raise. Your to busy telling me how I should spend my money or how not spend my money by making your comments "who told you to buy a 2010 bmw" None of your business. When the pond scum come out of the woodworks and actually work a little instead of sitting home and expecting handouts and then they see how difficult work is maybe just maybe they will stop blowing it on ridiculous and outlandish toys that others have who can afford it. Maybe I should be taxed a little more so that your state can get out of the shit hole also. But until then Mr. Socialist, go have a coke and a smile and SHUT THE FUCK UP

I think he's from Zimbabwe living in California. Not to interrupt the argument, just sayin'

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by cycler

Let me explain something to you once and for all because I see you love using the term hyperbole. When our income is $260K a year and I pay $105,500 in taxes that for me my freind is enough. What I choose to with my HARD EARNED MONEY is my business. How I spend it is MY BUSINESS. Dont look at what I make and tell me that Im blowing things out of proportion. After my $105,500 is paid.....leave me alone. If I want to donate my money that my business. If I want to invest it, my business. But its people like you who think that counting others peoples money or rather hoping people like myself get taxed more so people like you can up your living standards. Once again I took loans out to build a business that is flourishing. I TOOK THE RISK NO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. And Im happy I can live the way I live in these economic times. But neither you or anyone else will be there to bail me out if my business flops and I cant pay the bills. But they will certainly be there when my business is doing well so that I can spread the wealth. Bottom line me and my family alone should reap the rewards not you or anyone else after I pay my taxes that equal $105,500 which Obama will raise. Your to busy telling me how I should spend my money or how not spend my money by making your comments "who told you to buy a 2010 bmw" None of your business. When the pond scum come out of the woodworks and actually work a little instead of sitting home and expecting handouts and then they see how difficult work is maybe just maybe they will stop blowing it on ridiculous and outlandish toys that others have who can afford it. Maybe I should be taxed a little more so that your state can get out of the shit hole also. But until then Mr. Socialist, go have a coke and a smile and SHUT THE FUCK UP

Curious, would you mind sharing the line of business you are in?

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

The quality of care will go down, so instead of a majority of the country receiving adequate care, and a minority not receiving adequate care, we'll now have 100% of the population receiving subpar care. Is that really a solution?

Last time I checked USA is ranked fairly low by WHO and yet still spends the most on healthcare.

[solefald]

Originally Posted by cycler

LWhen our income is $260K a year and I pay $105,500 in taxes that for me my freind is enough.

I am sorry, but $105,500 is 40% of $260,000. I pay just as much on a much lower income, and I am not even being self-employed.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

Last time I checked USA is ranked fairly low by WHO and yet still spends the most on healthcare.

By what measures? Infant mortality rate? Yeah we suck at that. Otherwise, the care that we provide in the US is actually awesome. I don't think you'll find more Critical Care beds any where else in the world (20% in the US compared to 5% in the ROW)

In all honesty, the US Healthcare system is so fucked up. Majority of the healthcare dollars are spent on the last 10% of someone's life and we are paying through nostrils on complications that could have been preventable if we had a good public health / preventive care system in place. Just by reducing the number of obese people, there would have been a lot less money spent on healthcare.

The other two fundamental issues are:

1. We tend to "FIGHT" the disease instead of learning to live with them. You see people go through horrible, horrible chemotherapy, radiation therapy, surgery, etc just to live one day longer but their quality of life is non-existent. Guess how much money is spent on things like that? There is a point where there is a real diminished margin of return and that's when someone should consider hospice and maximize comfort.

2. People go to their doctors with ridiculous expectation while they don't want to take charge of initiating the change. I don't even want to get into that.

Unless people change their attitude, nothing will change, at least not with what's proposed in this so-called "reform"

[MrRoboto]

Originally Posted by Kev

I don't think you'll find more Critical Care beds any where else in the world (20% in the US compared to 5% in the ROW)

As you would expect in a 'for profit' system.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

As you would expect in a 'for profit' system.

A lot of the critical care beds are at Academic Centers that are not focused on making money. If you look at Haborview Medical Center in Seattle, which is the county hospital, most of the people in the unit are not insured.......

[solefald]

Originally Posted by Kev

A lot of the critical care beds are at Academic Centers that are not focused on making money. If you look at Haborview Medical Center in Seattle, which is the county hospital, most of the people in the unit are not insured.......

Academic Centers are still for profit, be it medicare, some other insurance or not. UCSD medical center CEO makes $600K/year. I don't believe a non-profit CEO could make that much.

[Kev]

Originally Posted by solefald

Academic Centers are still for profit, be it medicare, some other insurance or not. UCSD medical center CEO makes $600K/year. I don't believe a non-profit CEO could make that much.

most of the academic centers are non-profit, but the definition of non-profit does not mean the administrators aren't going to make big bucks. If you want to change that, Medicare / Medicaid should do something about it. Instead, they are chasing after doctors and cutting their reimbursement.

[cycler]

Originally Posted by solefald

I am sorry, but $105,500 is 40% of $260,000. I pay just as much on a much lower income, and I am not even being self-employed.

That amount will include the extra taxes I have to pay for our income being above $250K as well as a cadillac tax of $7,600 that we will have to pay for our health care because its a $40k a year policy.

As far as what I do for a living. My wife is a teacher and I own a company that designs and distributes titanium and stainless steel ophthalmic and thorasic instruments

[cycler]

Originally Posted by solefald

Academic Centers are still for profit, be it medicare, some other insurance or not. UCSD medical center CEO makes $600K/year. I don't believe a non-profit CEO could make that much.

UCSD Shiley Medical in San Diego is one of my customers

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by Kev

In all honesty, the US Healthcare system is so fucked up. Majority of the healthcare dollars are spent on the last 10% of someone's life and we are paying through nostrils on complications that could have been preventable if we had a good public health / preventive care system in place. Just by reducing the number of obese people, there would have been a lot less money spent on healthcare.

Bingo. This is one thing that Obama is absolutely spot on about. There needs to be a paradigm shift in how we go about treating disease. I think I saw a statistic that more than $100 billion a year is spent on diabetes treatment, a number that is expected to double or triple over the next decade. Shocking for a disease that could be prevented so easily by a proper diet and early management.

[scollins]

Originally Posted by pman10

Bingo. This is one thing that Obama is absolutely spot on about. There needs to be a paradigm shift in how we go about treating disease. I think I saw a statistic that more than $100 billion a year is spent on diabetes treatment, a number that is expected to double or triple over the next decade. Shocking for a disease that could be prevented so easily by a proper diet and early management.

But the problem it is not something that legislation, not even a "universal, totally free" health care system can provide. The mentality of many that live here is the "I need a pill for that so I can have my cake and eat it too." We are a society that has taken the lack of personal responsibility to new heights. We sue at the drop of a hat for any perceived or real injustice. We want the fast weight loss pill, the easy buck, the no-risk-high-return investments.

"Can't you just give me a pill to cure my diabetes? Why do I have to give up fast food, candy bars and gallons of Coca Cola? And you expect me to exercise too? Bwahahahahahaha!!!!! Come on doc, just give me a pill to make it all better."

Even if you aren't at the extreme of the above example, likely you are procrastinating or not doing something you know you should for your health. I personally need to eat a little better, exercise a little more and lose some weight. But I make up every excuse in the book to not do those things, or just say "I'll get to it tomorrow. Today I'm too busy with [insert work, play, driving, napping, watching TV, whatever, here]."

Real change needs to begin with the patient, and that has little to do with whether they can afford to see a doctor or not....

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by scollins

But the problem it is not something that legislation, not even a "universal, totally free" health care system can provide. The mentality of many that live here is the "I need a pill for that so I can have my cake and eat it too." We are a society that has taken the lack of personal responsibility to new heights. We sue at the drop of a hat for any perceived or real injustice. We want the fast weight loss pill, the easy buck, the no-risk-high-return investments.

"Can't you just give me a pill to cure my diabetes? Why do I have to give up fast food, candy bars and gallons of Coca Cola? And you expect me to exercise too? Bwahahahahahaha!!!!! Come on doc, just give me a pill to make it all better."

Even if you aren't at the extreme of the above example, likely you are procrastinating or not doing something you know you should for your health. I personally need to eat a little better, exercise a little more and lose some weight. But I make up every excuse in the book to not do those things, or just say "I'll get to it tomorrow. Today I'm too busy with [insert work, play, driving, napping, watching TV, whatever, here]."

Real change needs to begin with the patient, and that has little to do with whether they can afford to see a doctor or not....

You raise a very good point. Change must absolutely begin with the patient.

That being said, I disagree that it has to come completely from within. In an ideal society, yes, that would be true. But as you yourself admitted, that is precisely the problem with our society - there is no inherent will stay healthy, for the large part. The healthy eaters, the exercisers: we are all in the minority. Years of initiatives promoting healthy living, be it via advertisements, educational methodologies, etc have largely failed in the United States.

I think the only thing that will work now is to incentivize the system. In other words, create a system where citizens are rewarded by the government for eating and living in a healthy manner. For example, tax credits for those that run marathons. Or subsidies on mountain bike purchases. Or heck, subsidize healthy foods (like salads at Whole Foods!)Some of these already exist, but they need to be more rigorously pursued.

In our money-happy society, only the pursuit of the "$" will result in any lasting changes.

[NoKids]

Originally Posted by cycler

You are so ignorant its not even funny. Did you even take the time to read my post. Yes I have all those obligations to pay. And once complete it will be well worth it. I wasnt crying about it because YES I TOOK OUT THAT RESPONSIBILITY. However if I cant pay it back I loose everything while still paying those new taxes Obama fucks a lot has imposed. And there is no one helping me. Yet if I repay it I am still paying those taxes that our socialist piece of shit president is imposing because in his eyes we all need to be equal. I dont want to sound pompus or like Im better than anyone. However I pay for insurance and will be on the same level as people getting it for free or paying a lot less than me. I will have to wait 3-5 months to see a specialist if god forbid anything happens. Excuse me if I want preferential treatment if I actually pay for Type A+ insurance yet will be on the same level as someone who just sucks from the system like pond scum.

So my point is if i dont repay Im fucked and all those benefiting from my taxes will not be there to help me. Yet they are certainly there looking for a handout when Im making money.

As for you Nokids you are probably one of those have nots that want what others have who have busted their asses and put their lives and finances on the line to achieve what they have. And once we have what we have people like you and our president feel the need to redistribute the wealth. Oh and by the way I dont only have one 2010 bmw, I have a 2009 as well. So if were calling me a big shot I might as well let you know everything I have.

i'm sorry you're so upset cycler. i didn't mean to set you off or anything. my comment was simply to advise you that i didn't give a shit about your problems. that's all.

we cool?