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      03-18-2010, 07:32 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Remember BMW runs a dynamic ignition system which tries to advance timing as much as possible (to configurable limits) without knock. If the knock control system is not working as expected, it's feasible the ECU could advance timing too much without detecting the resulting knock.

One way around this would be to tune conservative timing limits although that defeats the purpose somewhat of dynamic ignition control.

Ion sensing knock control is far more complex than acoustic sensing knock control - as I understand it, it allows the ECU to model cylinder pressures, temperatures and so on to detect knock (and which would also give it the ability to predict knock as well) - if methanol has different burn and pressure characteristics, I can see how this could affect the knock control system.

One real valid point brought up earlier by LMB is the whole failure scenario - if that meth pump fails, you are royally screwed unless the ECU can somehow detect the failure and apply corrections to address the failure (I've seen this with aftermarket ECUs like Motec and Autronic, but probably not possible with the Siemens ECU in its BMW configuration)...
Correct, it does have different burn rate than 91 octane unleaded gasoline.

In fact, the burn rate for Methanol is 2.5x faster.

Methanol also burns at lower temperature than gasoline.(43 deg F)

If you use methanol as a fuel in any spark ignition engine, it can offer an increased thermal efficiency and increased power output (compared to unleaded gasoline) due to its high octane rating (114), and high heat of vaporisation. However, due to it's low energy content of 19.7 MJ/kg and stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 6.42:1, that means your fuel consumption (by volume or mass) will be much higher than hydrocarbon fuels. The extra water produced by methanol also makes the incoming air charge rather 'wet', and that creates a formic acidic by-product during combustion. Formic acid accelerates the wearing of valves, valve seats, the aluminum cylinder head, and the aluminum engine block. (which is exactly what the S65 engine is made of)

Methanol is one of the most toxic/corrosive substances on the Earth. I have no idea why some of you guys would ever put this harsh chemical into your engine ON PURPOSE.

Methanol contains a ton of soluble and insoluble contaminants. These soluble contaminants, (halide ions such as chloride ions), have a large effect on the corrosivity of alcohol based fuels like Methanol. Halide ions increase corrosion in two ways:

a) they chemically attack passivating oxide films on several metals (especially aluminum) causing pitting corrosion.

and

b) they increase the electrical conductivity of the fuel.

The increased electrical conductivity promotes electric, galvanic, and ordinary corrosion in the fuel system. Soluble contaminants, such as aluminum hydroxide (a product of corrosion by halide ions), will clog up a modern fuel system over time.

Methanol is also hygroscopic, which means it will absorb water vapor directly from the atmosphere. (like brake fluid does) This causes a natural in consistently in the quality of Methanol. Absorbed water dilutes the fuel value of methanol (although, it may still help suppress engine knock), it is not smart to tune an internal combustion gasoline engine on Methanol for use as an additional fuel source. The half-life of Methanol that has been exposed to air is very short. (a few weeks) If the water/meth solution sits up for too long, it may cause a phase separation of methanol, where the chemical actually breaks down.

There are no OEM applications of Methanol (or water/meth) injection on a production car by any automobile manufacturer.

Every supercharged or turbocharged super car in existence (from the Corvette ZR1 to the Bugatti Veyron) manages to run just fine on 91 octane unleaded gasoline without fear of detonation.
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      03-18-2010, 07:51 AM   #46
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Le mans blue, Your PM storage is full. Maybe you keep it like this on purpose because you don't like PM's...

I had some automotive questions for you.Do you accept to answer ??
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      03-18-2010, 08:04 AM   #47
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b) they increase the electrical conductivity of the fuel..
Isn't this property alone enough to negatively effect the Ion Sensing Knock Control?
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      03-18-2010, 08:10 AM   #48
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Isn't this property alone enough to negatively effect the Ion Sensing Knock Control?
Since ions are electrically charged particles, I would think so.
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      03-18-2010, 10:18 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by 05SCM3 View Post
That is what I understood Sal's comment to mean all along. Basic logic and reading comprehension, without unnecessary inferences intended to create absolutes for argument purposes, suggested to me at least that is what he was saying. Unless mistaken, I never saw "running meth will blow an S65 engine PERIOD." That was how his comments were cast so they could be challenged and argued.

Then again, I am the same guy who will never understand why it is so important and so satisfying to some to draw lines in the sand, argue, and chest thump over matters that are truly inconsequential in the grand scheme of life . . . .
My God, we are having a conversation on a sports car forum, a claim was made that needs answers. It has nothing to do with drawing lines in the sand, chest thumping, etc. Either way the sarcastic, chest beating crap is coming from BOTH sides, if that's how you look at it.

If you look at Sal's claims that Meth WILL blow the motor, they are fundamentally flawed, even if his claims how Meth affects ion-flow are true, do you know the knock suppressant characteristics of Meth? I know you do because you ran 14psi with it on your S54 with 91. They are as high as C16 race fuel, now unless the ion-flow KD completely turned off and then somehow added TONS of timing or made the ECU go totally lean, apparantly 12.6 is okay at redline with that boost level on 91 octane, then that motor is not gonna blow from the Meth, if anything it will protect it, that is the ONLY question here, we don't need an entire novel about why you don't need Meth if the hardware is immaculate, we get that, this is a completely different discussion. How in the world would this engine knock from too much timing and then blow up if it has such a high octane suppressant?

Yes you read it wrong Stephan, according to him it "WILL" happen, hence the reaction you saw here, I'm surprised that surprised you, lol.

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hope this is finally put to bed and I sincerely hope ESS and Gintani don't have the same problems. However, this is likely as it is rumoured that a few people are trying to add methanol to their kits also and the inevitable WILL happen. If this happens then it's likely your tune will blamed!
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      03-18-2010, 10:22 AM   #50
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Great thread. I fully agree that Methanol would not be a feasible tuning solution for the S65. People might argue that the Water/Meth mixture will not be that aggressive and that cylinder-heads, valves, etc. will be clean on an engine where Meth ist used. They are - due to oxidation.
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      03-18-2010, 10:25 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
My God, we are having a conversation on a sports car forum, a claim was made that needs answers. It has nothing to do with drawing lines in the sand, chest thumping, etc. Either way the sarcastic, chest beating crap is coming from BOTH sides, if that's how you look at it.

If you look at Sal's claims that Meth WILL blow the motor, they are fundamentally flawed, even if his claims how Meth affects ion-flow are true, do you know the knock suppressant characteristics of Meth? I know you do because you ran 14psi with it on your S54 with 91. They are as high as C16 race fuel, now unless the ion-flow KD completely turned off and then somehow added TONS of timing or made the ECU go totally lean, apparantly 12.6 is okay at redline with that boost level on 91 octane, then that motor is not gonna blow from the Meth, if anything it will protect it, that is the ONLY question here, we don't need an entire novel about why you don't need Meth if the hardware is immaculate, we get that, this is a completely different discussion. How in the world would this engine knock from too much timing and then blow up if it has such a high octane suppressant?

Yes you read it wrong Stephan, according to him it "WILL" happen, hence the reaction you saw here, I'm surprised that surprised you, lol.
The wording might not be correct, but bottom line everything is explained already in this thread. At least so that I could understand.
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      03-18-2010, 11:21 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Remember BMW runs a dynamic ignition system which tries to advance timing as much as possible (to configurable limits) without knock. If the knock control system is not working as expected, it's feasible the ECU could advance timing too much without detecting the resulting knock.

One way around this would be to tune conservative timing limits although that defeats the purpose somewhat of dynamic ignition control.

Ion sensing knock control is far more complex than acoustic sensing knock control - as I understand it, it allows the ECU to model cylinder pressures, temperatures and so on to detect knock (and which would also give it the ability to predict knock as well) - if methanol has different burn and pressure characteristics, I can see how this could affect the knock control system.

One real valid point brought up earlier by LMB is the whole failure scenario - if that meth pump fails, you are royally screwed unless the ECU can somehow detect the failure and apply corrections to address the failure (I've seen this with aftermarket ECUs like Motec and Autronic, but probably not possible with the Siemens ECU in its BMW configuration)...
Great points, however when you add FI, as you know, MANY things are adjusted, namely timing, too much timing is normally what kills these motors with FI, something Meth can keep in check, not the other way around, even if the ion-flow knock system is affected the octane is there if it adds more timing for some odd reason, do we actually know that's what ion-flow does when meth is used, and why it would blow a motor, do you not see the contradictions here? C16 has different burn characteristics too, I wonder how that affects this complex knock control system.

I agree as well about the failure scenario, that doesn't affect my situation as my car is not tuned aggressively for Water/Meth. I am not a big fan of running pure Meth, but many have done it successfully, and some not so much do to many of the reasons pointed out in this thread.
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Last edited by DLSJ5; 03-18-2010 at 11:48 AM.
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      03-18-2010, 11:26 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by e.n335 View Post
The wording might not be correct, but bottom line everything is explained already in this thread. At least so that I could understand.
I'm not surprised you would take that position.
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      03-18-2010, 12:07 PM   #54
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I don't get it Drew, why are you asking this? You know exactly whose car it was and you know exactly how long it was running. You probably see and talk to him at least once per week when you were getting your kit installed at Gintani. Why are you asking Sal when you can get the answer directly from the car's owner?

This thread is getting absolutely annoying. It's the typical BS that keeps going on and will never end. When somebody -- with considerable tuning expertise -- says anything that contradicts what you guys want to hear, a whole gang of the same people -- who have absolutely no tuning expertise -- come in and destroy the thread. I'll say the same thing Jason said in Drew's thread. Stop this crap now or else this thread will be closed and infractions may be issued.
Because he knows what Sal claimed up there is bullshit. I'm not going to sit here and defend my self because I know the reason, other people are in denial of what cased the blow up.

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How come everyone is keeping the owner of the car a secret...
I mean it is really obvious, and anyways, "The best is yet to come... " for the new kit that the owner is putting on the car
No one is keeping the owner a secret, basically everyone knows my car is at Gintani but they have no idea what I am doing there... Well, most don't.
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      03-18-2010, 12:46 PM   #55
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Just so everybody knows, I deleted some comments. We told you before that all the drama some like to cause has to be dropped. This thread is about the possible affection of meth infection to the S65, nothing less, nothing more!

This thread also is interesting and does have potential to provide useful information for many members, regardless their personal preference. It's not interesting enough to be kept open despite ongoing arguments, though. So, consider this the very last warning to drop this nonsense or the thread's gone.

We'll have another look at some posts and then decide whether they're infractionable or not. Let me also add that some posts got deleted just because they quoted inappropriate comments, so I'd like to thank these members for understanding!


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      03-18-2010, 12:58 PM   #56
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What gas does the factory tune on? Different gases burn differently, 91, 93, different gas pumps have different burn ratings etc just like meth has a different burn rating... Will this cause the motor to blow?
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      03-18-2010, 01:05 PM   #57
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In EU standard is 93 to provide full power, 91 minimum. If you want to apply Meth it will not be the problem when you have an appropriate ECU tune ( being Meth failsafe ). Whether you should use Meth in general due to side-effects would be worth to be further discussed, IMO.
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      03-18-2010, 01:41 PM   #58
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Methanol can be used with FI if it is properly tuned for it. Anyone who runs it to aid in adding boost without proper tuning is asking for trouble. Safety features need to be applied to keep the motor safe anytime you run high psi and use a chemical additive injected into the motor for safety. Meth is also corrosive and will harm a motor over time if exposed to enough of it.

The questions customers should ask are what exactly is there to gain by running meth ? If you are going to consider it as an option then you should review the performance difference with and without and decide for yourself if the added risks are worth it. It should also be known what the vendor has done to keep the motor safe incase the meth system fails to perform properly.
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      03-18-2010, 01:45 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Methanol can be used with FI if it is properly tuned for it. Anyone who runs it to aid in adding boost without proper tuning is asking for trouble. Safety features need to be applied to keep the motor safe anytime you run high psi and use a chemical additive injected into the motor for safety. Meth is also corrosive and will harm a motor over time if exposed to enough of it.

The questions customers should ask are what exactly is there to gain by running meth ? If you are going to consider it as an option then you should review the performance difference with and without and decide for yourself if the added risks are worth it. It should also be known what the vendor has done to keep the motor safe incase the meth system fails to perform properly.
I think that's a fair assessment.
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      03-18-2010, 01:50 PM   #60
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what im hearing is more negative effects than positive...if meth is going to corrode the engine why use it?
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      03-18-2010, 01:54 PM   #61
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Those are questions that need to be answered. How many miles do you plan on keeping the car? How quickly will the Meth cause corrosion? How much extra power will it make? Am I willing to take the risk?

Doing any mod on an engine whether it's FI, Meth, or even an ECU tune, should cause an owner to at least access the risks and rewards of that modification.

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what im hearing is more negative effects than positive...if meth is going to corrode the engine why use it?
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      03-18-2010, 02:10 PM   #62
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How many miles do you plan on keeping the car?
I plan on keeping the car till the wheels fall off i mean why not i payed for it...but if i was keeping the car till around 50,000 sure i could go crazy with mods good or bad and whoever buys my car will be a very unhappy person if they decide to keep the car till lets say 100,000 miles....none the less it still corrodes slowly but surely...but this is IF i decided to get supercharged using meth today (~13,000 miles right now) and if my motor even lasted till 50,000 miles

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How quickly will the Meth cause corrosion?
I think this is THE question that needs to be answered! Also what effect the meth had on the part/parts that caused those motors to blow
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      03-18-2010, 02:12 PM   #63
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what im hearing is more negative effects than positive...if meth is going to corrode the engine why use it?
It really comes down to personal preference. Some people are willing to take the "risk" of running meth because they want the most power possible. Obviously adding more boost or running meth in the long term will put more stress on engine internals. If you care about your engines longevity, putting a S/C on in the first place is probably not the best idea, until we have independent reliability updates of these kits running 100k+ miles with no issues.
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      03-18-2010, 02:14 PM   #64
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I plan on keeping the car till the wheels fall off i mean why not i payed for it...but if i was keeping the car till around 50,000 sure i could go crazy with mods good or bad and whoever buys my car will be a very unhappy person if they decide to keep the car till lets say 100,000 miles....none the less it still corrodes slowly but surely...but this is IF i decided to get supercharged using meth today (~13,000 miles right now) and if my motor even lasted till 50,000 miles



I think this is THE question that needs to be answered! Also what effect the meth had on the part/parts that caused those motors to blow
Zero, my guess. For that short time Meth has been used corrosion should be no issue.
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      03-18-2010, 02:26 PM   #65
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Zero, my guess. For that short time Meth has been used corrosion should be no issue.
You are on the right track. I'm glad we have people like you on the board.
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      03-18-2010, 02:27 PM   #66
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Its not like the meth is going to be sitting in your motor and it also depends on how much you spray. The motor burns up gas very quickly (especially a high performance motor), it will also use up the meth quite quickly.
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