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      03-17-2010, 07:45 PM   #23
Eugene-TAIWAN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth View Post
I think your comment is very childish and you of all people should roll with this discussion as Sal has made a bold statement and it would be to the benefit of the community to get a understanding of it. To state that methanol affects the knock protection is quite a statement would could do with a whole thread dedicated to it.



The only way I can imagine this to occur is that if methanol has different electrical properties to normal fuel and it changes the voltage between the gap of the plug and the ECU gets a wrong reading and thinks there is no knock when there is knock. This is highly unlikely in my humble opinion though but one possibility. If this is the case with car 2 which was tuned for the 91 octane on the SK2 kit but still broke the motor on the dyno due to the use of the methanol then surely a knock like that would be audible unless it was knocking all along and the dyno was the last straw or maybe the knock feature was removed from the software.

I am prepared to run a experiment on my S85 which also has a ion knock system and see how methanol will affect the knock readings. I will also try convince M&M to do the same on his S65. We both have flash tuning capability so it should not be so hard to do a Mythbusters test.

As a disclaimer and since I know the ban hammer is knocked around (excuse the pun) often I would like to say that I am a big fan of GPower and I think there S65 kit is the best of the four available and am even considering there kit of my S85 so in now way is this a bashing post.

Wow that sounds great! please keep us updated!!

Eugene
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      03-17-2010, 08:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I don't get it Drew, why are you asking this? You know exactly whose car it was and you know exactly how long it was running. You probably see and talk to him at least once per week when you were getting your kit installed at Gintani. Why are you asking Sal when you can get the answer directly from the car's owner?

This thread is getting absolutely annoying. It's the typical BS that keeps going on and will never end. When somebody -- with considerable tuning expertise -- says anything that contradicts what you guys want to hear, a whole gang of the same people -- who have absolutely no tuning expertise -- come in and destroy the thread. I'll say the same thing Jason said in Drew's thread. Stop this crap now or else this thread will be closed and infractions may be issued.
PG i dont think Drew is trying to bash or put down Sal in anyway... seems like an open discussion of why meth could blow a motor, which Sal stated it could....there doesnt really seem to be any attacking, and i dont think the owner of that g-power car can answer for Sal...

Im curious about this cause I am considering going with a water/meth setup
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      03-17-2010, 08:37 PM   #25
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Man. this is too funny...
Instead of soaking up the knowledge that is being graciously offered by Sal, some of you guys are attacking the man like he's some sort of nut case for suggesting that Methanol Injection is NOT exactly the greatest idea for tuning a forced induction BMW engine.

Seriously, it's an all too predictable pattern here guys. The moment someone says that methanol isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, some of you get all bent out of shape. Why? Because a few tuners in socal swears by it. I honestly think that has a lot to do with it. As I have repeatedly stated over and over again, a properly engineered forced induction supercharger or turbocharger DOES NOT REQUIRE THE USE OF METHANOL to make additional power or to reduce IAT's. (to delay the onset of detonation) For some reason, you guys are fixated on Methanol as the go to solution for these two purposes. The problem with that mindset, os that Methanol is not a free and easy "fix" at all.

In fact, Methanol only complicates the tuning for the guy writing the forced induction software, and if a Methanol pump or nozzle fails at high boost...bye bye engine. (fact)

It's a crutch that only adds unnecessary risk, and it lowers the overall chances of having a reliable trouble-free forced induction kit. (generally speaking)

More elaborate FI systems will tend to have more 'issues' with reliability over time. The FI kit manufacturer doesn't want that customer service hassle after the sale, and neither does the customer. A smart tuner/shop owner is very careful about what they will build for their customers. If you leave the build construction entirely up to the customer, you're asking for big trouble. Not only is that very time consuming (which will actually end up COSTING you money in the long run), but the potential back-end customer service headaches are simply not worth it at the end of the day. (not even close)

Believe it or not, sometimes the best answer to "Can you build this for me?" ...is NO. (well...if you're smart)

But then again, that would require someone who can actually articulate a viable reason WHY they won't build some elaborate setup that requires additional hardware, wiring, and tuning...because is not really necessary. (or that it might potentially CAUSE a problem later on if anything malfunctions)

Apparently, many of the people who are auguring with Sal, have never seen a highly-engineered BMW forced induction production kit before.

And while we're discussing tuning, I doubt that many of you truly understand that it's possible to build a low-boost BMW supercharger kit WITHOUT an intercooler.

The key word in that statement is low boost for anyone who isn't paying attention...

For the S65 engine, 4-5 psi of boost adds about 70 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

By contrast...9-10 psi of boost adds about 140 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

That's a HUGE difference in regards to tuning, so your FI intercooling methodology must adapt to this basic truth.

The average Air-to-air or water-to-air intercooling setup (on a BMW N54, S54, or S65) FI car approx. 60% efficient in mild weather conditions. (70 deg F /w/ less than 50% humidity) That means the intercooler will reduce the charged air temps by 60%.

Using simple math, an E9x M3 running 4-5 psi of boost and no cooling system on a 75 deg F day will have an IAT of approx. 140-150 deg F. Which is still in the safe zone (tuning wise) by a comfortable margin.

On the other hand...a 9-10 psi car with an intercooling system on a 75 deg F day will have IAT's of approx. 130-140 deg F. (after subtracting the effective intercooling heat reduction)

Anyone who says running no intercooling on a E9x M3 supercharger is dangerous on low boost...also needs to say its dangerous to run 9-10 psi of boost on a car with intercooling, as the IAT's are only about 10-20 deg F apart in reality. Compressing air molecules creates heat, and the more boost pressure that you cram into the engine...the more heat you are going to create. (which then needs to be neutralized)

The funny part that most BMW enthusiast don't seem to understand is this...

On some intercooling systems that are designed and packaged with an FI kit, (where no measurable IAT data was complied during R&D or the prototype testing phase), there is no definitive way to gauge how efficient the intercooler system actually is, so in theory, you could actually have the exact same IAT's on a higher 9 psi kit...and a low 4.5 psi kit.

If the cooling system on the high-boost car has a lower efficiency rating of say 50%, this is not only possible, it a very likely

Most people have no clue how efficient their cooling system is, because only a few FI providers even bother to actually test them in extreme conditions. A responsible FI provider will do extensive testing on the efficiency of their intercooling system, and they will record the results. That data will be used later on to fine tune the car. (since the efficiency of the FI intercooling system is not a complete 'mystery')

The heat reduction factor of any commercially viable FI kit should always be known upfront. That keeps the FI provider from wondering if their intercooler will be up to the task when the supercharger or turbocharger is experiencing extreme loads and high ambient air temps.

Doing your homework ahead of time, will also eliminate the need to implement unnecessary add-ons like Water/Methanol (to cool the IAT's), due to concerns about the efficiency of the intercooling method used, or the safety of the ECU tuning.

If everything was designed and tested thoroughly, there is absolutely no need to pile on additional engine intake cooling devices to keep the engine safe. The engine should remain safe under all operating conditions the day the kit is released for sale to the general public. Period.

The only time Water/Methanol should be used on a FI kit, is when the hardware package has not been properly engineered to maximize the available airflow, or the intercooling method fails to reduce the IAT's to manageable level for aggressive driving conditions. If no one is sure how effective the intercooling system will perform (in a very predictable manner), or the effective air flow is not as close to 100% for each application, then performance will suffer and a variety of overheating issues will crop up when the bar is raised.

FYI: The stock OEM cooling system on a stock 500hp 5.4-liter Mercedes E55 AMG is approx. 60% efficient on a 75 deg day. It runs IAT's in the 130 deg F range.

Just because a car has a cooling system doesn't mean its doing a great job. An undersized/poorly designed heat exchanger can greatly impact your intake charge cooling temps. I think most people just assume because it has SOME type of cooling, that it must be working really well....so and there is nothing to worry about right?

WRONG ANSWER.

The reason Sammyrusso never had any side effects from his cooling system failure (when he partially ripped his bumer off), is because his IAT's never reached the breaking point. (where his his intake air temps never surpassed the point where his car could not adapt) The threshold for high IAT's (where the S65 engine can no longer make any more power) with low-boost supercharged applications boost is approx. 220 deg F.

When Sammyrusso was tracking his car, it was ~60 deg F day plus an additional 70 deg F temps from the 5psi compressed airflow from the Vortech blower.

His motor was seeing about 130 deg F temps. After driving the car around the track for a while, he may have lost 15-20 HP because his intercooling system not working, but he was still never anywhere close to reaching the point where the car would have any issues.

How do I know this?

Because by his own account, Sammy's car never went into limp mode with the obligatory "Reduced Power" warning. (as it's designed to do) The M3 will shut down when the car is pushed too hard, for too long, in extreme conditions.

To wrap up...

Just because Sal's professional opinion doesn't 'jive' with your own pre-disposition on the use of Methanol, doesn't give you guys the right to demand an explanation that YOU will accept. Sal doesn't have to prove anything to you guys. He's a BMW tuner, and guess what...you're not.

If you want to talk to Sal on his level, here is my suggestion for anyone who wants to argue with him about Methanol (or BMW ECU tuning)...

a) Go back to college and get a degree in Software Engineering.
b) Apprentice under a well-known industry recognized Software Engineer that writes BMW ECU software for a living (at least 3-5 years), so that you can appreciate the complexities of what you can and cannot do with modern BMW ECU's.
c) Open your own BMW tuning shop, where you can build and tune any BMW car under the sun.
d) Come back here and resume your conversation with Sal...THEN you can tell him how wrong he is about Methanol and tuning...

Any takers?
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Last edited by Lemans_Blue_M; 03-17-2010 at 09:04 PM.
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      03-17-2010, 09:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I don't get it Drew, why are you asking this? You know exactly whose car it was and you know exactly how long it was running. You probably see and talk to him at least once per week when you were getting your kit installed at Gintani. Why are you asking Sal when you can get the answer directly from the car's owner?

This thread is getting absolutely annoying. It's the typical BS that keeps going on and will never end. When somebody -- with considerable tuning expertise -- says anything that contradicts what you guys want to hear, a whole gang of the same people -- who have absolutely no tuning expertise -- come in and destroy the thread. I'll say the same thing Jason said in Drew's thread. Stop this crap now or else this thread will be closed and infractions may be issued.
How come everyone is keeping the owner of the car a secret...
I mean it is really obvious, and anyways, "The best is yet to come... " for the new kit that the owner is putting on the car
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      03-17-2010, 09:39 PM   #27
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Oh God...

Methanol is a way to add OCTANE rating for safer power. Just like using RACE GAS.

I find this argument comical to say the least. I havent heard of much instances where methanol was purely the cause of a motor blowing, or at least ive never heard of it before.

All this argument and not ONE FACT has been stated on how methanol actually effects the knock system or blows motors. I keep reading that adding methanol will inevitably blow your motor, i just cant believe someone with vast knowledge can claim that.

Im not the most intellectual when it comes to this stuff but ive done my reading. I will be talking to a very well known tuner tomorrow about this and posting up some info.

Until then how about you guys show me some data of methanol directly causing a an S65 to blow. Oh wait, you can't.
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      03-17-2010, 09:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Man. this is too funny...
I feel the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Am I actually reading yet another thread, where an established BMW ECU tuner is having to argue with the same group of 20-something BMW enthusiasts from Southern California? Guys who have never built or tuned any BMW vehicle in their entire life? Is this really happening?
LMAO, i guess were all just dummies compared to him. We should all just listen to him and shut up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Instead of soaking up the knowledge that is being graciously offered by Sal, some of you guys are attacking the man like he's some sort of nut case for suggesting that Methanol Injection is NOT exactly the greatest idea for tuning a forced induction BMW engine.
Hello? He is stating methanol will blow your motor period. That requires an argument, a very big statement imo sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Seriously, it's an all too predictable pattern here guys. The moment someone says that methanol isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, some of you get all bent out of shape. Why? Because a few tuners in socal swears by it. I honestly think that has a lot to do with it. As I have repeatedly stated over and over again, a properly engineered forced induction supercharger or turbocharger DOES NOT REQUIRE THE USE OF METHANOL to make additional power or to reduce IAT's. (to delay the onset of detonation) For some reason, you guys are fixated on Methanol as the go to solution for these two purposes. The problem with that mindset, os that Methanol is not a free and easy "fix" at all.
Its called pump gas 91 octane, guys want an easy way of getting a higher octane rating. This has been done for years with no problem. As i mentioned before a tuner is supposed to tune the car properly without meth, meth is just an addition for more power/safety due to 91 oct availability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
In fact, Methanol only complicates the tuning for the guy writing the forced induction software, and if a Methanol pump or nozzle fails at high boost...bye bye engine. (fact)
Thats if the car is dependent on meth. And some meth kits have safety features against it. Some even have there own knock control. (fact)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
It's a crutch that only adds unnecessary risk, and it lowers the overall chances of having a reliable trouble-free forced induction kit. (generally speaking)
Again, the car is supposed to have a safe tune already. Meth is not adding risk, unless it is necessarily tuned for it and does not have built in safety features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Apparently, many of the people who are auguring with Sal, have never seen a highly-engineered BMW forced induction production kit before.
True, i forgot you have a 1200HP M3 that doesnt even run meth (in the middle of installing one now ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
And while we're discussing tuning, I doubt that many of you truly understand that it's possible to build a low-boost BMW supercharger kit WITHOUT an intercooler.

The key word in that statement is low boost for anyone who isn't paying attention...

For the S65 engine, 4-5 psi of boost adds about 70 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

By contrast...9-10 psi of boost adds about 140 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

That's a HUGE difference in regards to tuning, so your FI intercooling methodology must adapt to this basic truth.

The average Air-to-air or water-to-air intercooling setup (on a BMW N54, S54, or S65) FI car approx. 60% efficient in mild weather conditions. (70 deg F /w/ less than 50% humidity) That means the intercooler will reduce the charged air temps by 60%.

Using simple math, an E9x M3 running 4-5 psi of boost and no cooling system on a 75 deg F day will have an IAT of approx. 140-150 deg F. Which is still in the safe zone (tuning wise) by a comfortable margin.

On the other hand...a 9-10 psi car with an intercooling system on a 75 deg F day will have IAT's of approx. 130-140 deg F. (after subtracting the effective intercooling heat reduction)

Anyone who says running no intercooling on a E9x M3 supercharger is dangerous on low boost...also needs to say its dangerous to run 9-10 psi of boost on a car with intercooling, as the IAT's are only about 10-20 deg F apart in reality. Compressing air molecules creates heat, and the more boost pressure that you cram into the engine...the more heat you are going to create. (which then needs to be neutralized)

The funny part that most BMW enthusiast don't seem to understand is this...

On some intercooling systems that are designed and packaged with an FI kit, (where no measurable IAT data was complied during R&D or the prototype testing phase), there is no definitive way to gauge how efficient the intercooler system actually is, so in theory, you could actually have the exact same IAT's on a higher 9 psi kit...and a low 4.5 psi kit.

If the cooling system on the high-boost car has a lower efficiency rating of say 50%, this is not only possible, it a very likely

Most people have no clue how efficient their cooling system is, because only a few FI providers even bother to actually test them in extreme conditions. A responsible FI provider will do extensive testing on the efficiency of their intercooling system, and they will record the results. That data will be used later on to fine tune the car. (since the efficiency of the FI intercooling system is not a complete 'mystery')

The heat reduction factor of any commercially viable FI kit should always be known upfront. That keeps the FI provider from wondering if their intercooler will be up to the task when the supercharger or turbocharger is experiencing extreme loads and high ambient air temps.

Doing your homework ahead of time, will also eliminate the need to implement unnecessary add-ons like Water/Methanol (to cool the IAT's), due to concerns about the efficiency of the intercooling method used, or the safety of the ECU tuning.

If everything was designed and tested thoroughly, there is absolutely no need to pile on additional engine intake cooling devices to keep the engine safe. The engine should remain safe under all operating conditions the day the kit is released for sale to the general public. Period.
Seems like you are a production kit engineer? Is this true? Do you know everything certain tuners do while testing their kits? Of course tuners should be testing real world conditions and lots of other tests during R & D.

It seems like you are taking shots at certain companies. Judging from this argument blowing up after Drew's impressive actions, it is obvious. Is it true that you're favorite fi company is ESS? Does this have anything to do with your post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
The only time Water/Methanol should be used on a FI kit, is when the hardware package has not been properly engineered to maximize the available airflow, or the intercooling method fails to reduce the IAT's to manageable level for aggressive driving conditions. If no one is sure how effective the intercooling system will perform (in a very predictable manner), or the effective air flow is not as close to 100% for each application, then performance will suffer and a variety of overheating issues will crop up when the bar is raised.
Wrong again. Im putting a meth kit on my car after running 91 octane without meth for awhile. Are you saying my car has not been properly engineered? Is running 32psi aggressive enough for you? My car has never over heated nor even past optimal coolant temps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Just because Sal's professional opinion doesn't 'jive' with your own pre-disposition on the use of Methanol, doesn't give you guys the right to demand an explanation that YOU will accept. Sal doesn't have to prove anything to you guys. He's a BMW tuner, and guess what...you're not.
He has given no real explanation, no real proof has been posted. Sorry we cant argue with him and none of us have any education except for you.

No offense but what FI applications has he tuned? Im not too informed on who he is but i sure as hell will argue a point i believe is inaccurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
If you want to talk to Sal on his level, here is my suggestion for anyone who wants to argue with him about Methanol (or BMW ECU tuning)...

a) Go back to college and get a degree in Software Engineering.
b) Apprentice under a well-known industry recognized Software Engineer that writes BMW ECU software for a living (at least 3-5 years), so that you can appreciate the complexities of what you can and cannot do with modern BMW ECU's.
c) Open your own BMW tuning shop, where you can build and tune any BMW car under the sun.
d) Come back here and resume your conversation with Sal...THEN you can tell him how wrong he is about Methanol and tuning...

Any takers?
Is this a joke? Thats one of the most ridiculous things i have ever read..

You're the guy that stated PG's car was so impressive that it would destroy any car out there (that post was deleted after i responded saying "huh").


Wooo, that took alot out of me..

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      03-17-2010, 10:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I don't get it Drew, why are you asking this? You know exactly whose car it was and you know exactly how long it was running. You probably see and talk to him at least once per week when you were getting your kit installed at Gintani. Why are you asking Sal when you can get the answer directly from the car's owner?

This thread is getting absolutely annoying. It's the typical BS that keeps going on and will never end. When somebody -- with considerable tuning expertise -- says anything that contradicts what you guys want to hear, a whole gang of the same people -- who have absolutely no tuning expertise -- come in and destroy the thread. I'll say the same thing Jason said in Drew's thread. Stop this crap now or else this thread will be closed and infractions may be issued.
Hi PG!!!!

I like a lot of things you do! for the forum and all but this is pretty interesting. and I just has a feeling that your threatening words don't make me feel comfortable. I mean I am an international forum member and I think thats what make this forum so good(also yourself and the info you put into it). but words like stopping thread when YOU feel like its not interesting.

and I know I am NOT the only international forum member to feel this way.

sorry to be rude but its really honest.
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      03-17-2010, 10:09 PM   #30
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To the BMW tuners -- does the S65 knock detection system work by calculating the peak pressure point, or does it just compare the knock current/voltage against tabulated values?
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      03-17-2010, 10:10 PM   #31
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So, in summary....don't use meth on the S65 unless the ionic knock correction has been properly calibrated, right ?? That isn't so difficult to understand, and it certainly doesn't warrant saying that running meth will blow an S65 engine PERIOD.

People in the US (specifically 91 octane states) are always going to turn to meth to produce more power due to octane restrictions, or poorly engineered set-ups, or both . Whether or not meth will maintain good engine life is 100% up to the tuner's understanding of the car's ECU, and meth's impact on how the factory knock detection identifies a knock event .
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      03-17-2010, 10:25 PM   #32
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So, in summary....don't use meth on the S65 unless the ionic knock correction has beenproperly calibrated, right ?? That isn't so difficult to understand, and it certainly doesn't warrant saying that running meth will blow an S65 engine PERIOD.

People in the US (specifically 91 octane states) are always going to turn to meth to produce more power due to octane restrictions, or poorly engineered set-ups, or both . Whether or not meth will maintain good engine life is 100% up to the tuners understanding of the cars ECU, and meth's impact on how the factory knock detection identifies a knock event .
Damn Powertrip, that's a pretty good assessment of the situation brother.

I'm genuinely impressed with this post.
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      03-17-2010, 10:31 PM   #33
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Damn Powertrip, that's a pretty good assessment of the situation brother.

I'm genuinely impressed with this post.
Yep Powertrip seems like a smart man!
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      03-17-2010, 11:47 PM   #34
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What will the doubters say a couple years down the road? When people are still running water/meth with the proper tuning and having no problems? Nice try at the scare tatics.
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      03-17-2010, 11:53 PM   #35
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Any further posts in this thread that discusses any company vs. company drama will be deleted and infracted.
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      03-18-2010, 12:07 AM   #36
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A question. If you get the system tuned for 91 octane can you run 94 octane? In other words, is going up that far ok or is that risking problems? I run Sunoco 94 octane.

Is it better to tune for 94 and occasionally run 91 or tune for 91 and occasionally run 94?
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      03-18-2010, 12:24 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
KD? Especially if you use a small shot that most likely evaporates before it hits the CC?
whats KD CC etc? sorry I milk goats for a living
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      03-18-2010, 12:27 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
whats KD CC etc? sorry I milk goats for a living
"Knock Detection" and "Combustion Chamber"
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      03-18-2010, 12:32 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
A question. If you get the system tuned for 91 octane can you run 94 octane? In other words, is going up that far ok or is that risking problems? I run Sunoco 94 octane.

Is it better to tune for 94 and occasionally run 91 or tune for 91 and occasionally run 94?
that is very good for the car no problem just ger Sunoco
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      03-18-2010, 12:36 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoreHead View Post
A question. If you get the system tuned for 91 octane can you run 94 octane? In other words, is going up that far ok or is that risking problems? I run Sunoco 94 octane.

Is it better to tune for 94 and occasionally run 91 or tune for 91 and occasionally run 94?
No there would be no issues, and normally one might say that is a silly question, but based on this thread I understand your concerns. After reading this thread, someone could infer that race gas might shut off "KD" on your sophisticated S65 ECU engine management, and your engine will blow, I can assure you many here have ran race gas, even C16, no failures so far.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
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      03-18-2010, 12:48 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Man. this is too funny...
Instead of soaking up the knowledge that is being graciously offered by Sal, some of you guys are attacking the man like he's some sort of nut case for suggesting that Methanol Injection is NOT exactly the greatest idea for tuning a forced induction BMW engine.

Seriously, it's an all too predictable pattern here guys. The moment someone says that methanol isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, some of you get all bent out of shape. Why? Because a few tuners in socal swears by it. I honestly think that has a lot to do with it. As I have repeatedly stated over and over again, a properly engineered forced induction supercharger or turbocharger DOES NOT REQUIRE THE USE OF METHANOL to make additional power or to reduce IAT's. (to delay the onset of detonation) For some reason, you guys are fixated on Methanol as the go to solution for these two purposes. The problem with that mindset, os that Methanol is not a free and easy "fix" at all.

In fact, Methanol only complicates the tuning for the guy writing the forced induction software, and if a Methanol pump or nozzle fails at high boost...bye bye engine. (fact)

It's a crutch that only adds unnecessary risk, and it lowers the overall chances of having a reliable trouble-free forced induction kit. (generally speaking)

More elaborate FI systems will tend to have more 'issues' with reliability over time. The FI kit manufacturer doesn't want that customer service hassle after the sale, and neither does the customer. A smart tuner/shop owner is very careful about what they will build for their customers. If you leave the build construction entirely up to the customer, you're asking for big trouble. Not only is that very time consuming (which will actually end up COSTING you money in the long run), but the potential back-end customer service headaches are simply not worth it at the end of the day. (not even close)

Believe it or not, sometimes the best answer to "Can you build this for me?" ...is NO. (well...if you're smart)

But then again, that would require someone who can actually articulate a viable reason WHY they won't build some elaborate setup that requires additional hardware, wiring, and tuning...because is not really necessary. (or that it might potentially CAUSE a problem later on if anything malfunctions)

Apparently, many of the people who are auguring with Sal, have never seen a highly-engineered BMW forced induction production kit before.

And while we're discussing tuning, I doubt that many of you truly understand that it's possible to build a low-boost BMW supercharger kit WITHOUT an intercooler.

The key word in that statement is low boost for anyone who isn't paying attention...

For the S65 engine, 4-5 psi of boost adds about 70 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

By contrast...9-10 psi of boost adds about 140 deg F to the ambient air temps coming into the motor.

That's a HUGE difference in regards to tuning, so your FI intercooling methodology must adapt to this basic truth.

The average Air-to-air or water-to-air intercooling setup (on a BMW N54, S54, or S65) FI car approx. 60% efficient in mild weather conditions. (70 deg F /w/ less than 50% humidity) That means the intercooler will reduce the charged air temps by 60%.

Using simple math, an E9x M3 running 4-5 psi of boost and no cooling system on a 75 deg F day will have an IAT of approx. 140-150 deg F. Which is still in the safe zone (tuning wise) by a comfortable margin.

On the other hand...a 9-10 psi car with an intercooling system on a 75 deg F day will have IAT's of approx. 130-140 deg F. (after subtracting the effective intercooling heat reduction)

Anyone who says running no intercooling on a E9x M3 supercharger is dangerous on low boost...also needs to say its dangerous to run 9-10 psi of boost on a car with intercooling, as the IAT's are only about 10-20 deg F apart in reality. Compressing air molecules creates heat, and the more boost pressure that you cram into the engine...the more heat you are going to create. (which then needs to be neutralized)

The funny part that most BMW enthusiast don't seem to understand is this...

On some intercooling systems that are designed and packaged with an FI kit, (where no measurable IAT data was complied during R&D or the prototype testing phase), there is no definitive way to gauge how efficient the intercooler system actually is, so in theory, you could actually have the exact same IAT's on a higher 9 psi kit...and a low 4.5 psi kit.

If the cooling system on the high-boost car has a lower efficiency rating of say 50%, this is not only possible, it a very likely

Most people have no clue how efficient their cooling system is, because only a few FI providers even bother to actually test them in extreme conditions. A responsible FI provider will do extensive testing on the efficiency of their intercooling system, and they will record the results. That data will be used later on to fine tune the car. (since the efficiency of the FI intercooling system is not a complete 'mystery')

The heat reduction factor of any commercially viable FI kit should always be known upfront. That keeps the FI provider from wondering if their intercooler will be up to the task when the supercharger or turbocharger is experiencing extreme loads and high ambient air temps.

Doing your homework ahead of time, will also eliminate the need to implement unnecessary add-ons like Water/Methanol (to cool the IAT's), due to concerns about the efficiency of the intercooling method used, or the safety of the ECU tuning.

If everything was designed and tested thoroughly, there is absolutely no need to pile on additional engine intake cooling devices to keep the engine safe. The engine should remain safe under all operating conditions the day the kit is released for sale to the general public. Period.

The only time Water/Methanol should be used on a FI kit, is when the hardware package has not been properly engineered to maximize the available airflow, or the intercooling method fails to reduce the IAT's to manageable level for aggressive driving conditions. If no one is sure how effective the intercooling system will perform (in a very predictable manner), or the effective air flow is not as close to 100% for each application, then performance will suffer and a variety of overheating issues will crop up when the bar is raised.

FYI: The stock OEM cooling system on a stock 500hp 5.4-liter Mercedes E55 AMG is approx. 60% efficient on a 75 deg day. It runs IAT's in the 130 deg F range.

Just because a car has a cooling system doesn't mean its doing a great job. An undersized/poorly designed heat exchanger can greatly impact your intake charge cooling temps. I think most people just assume because it has SOME type of cooling, that it must be working really well....so and there is nothing to worry about right?

WRONG ANSWER.

The reason Sammyrusso never had any side effects from his cooling system failure (when he partially ripped his bumer off), is because his IAT's never reached the breaking point. (where his his intake air temps never surpassed the point where his car could not adapt) The threshold for high IAT's (where the S65 engine can no longer make any more power) with low-boost supercharged applications boost is approx. 220 deg F.

When Sammyrusso was tracking his car, it was ~60 deg F day plus an additional 70 deg F temps from the 5psi compressed airflow from the Vortech blower.

His motor was seeing about 130 deg F temps. After driving the car around the track for a while, he may have lost 15-20 HP because his intercooling system not working, but he was still never anywhere close to reaching the point where the car would have any issues.

How do I know this?

Because by his own account, Sammy's car never went into limp mode with the obligatory "Reduced Power" warning. (as it's designed to do) The M3 will shut down when the car is pushed too hard, for too long, in extreme conditions.

To wrap up...

Just because Sal's professional opinion doesn't 'jive' with your own pre-disposition on the use of Methanol, doesn't give you guys the right to demand an explanation that YOU will accept. Sal doesn't have to prove anything to you guys. He's a BMW tuner, and guess what...you're not.

If you want to talk to Sal on his level, here is my suggestion for anyone who wants to argue with him about Methanol (or BMW ECU tuning)...

a) Go back to college and get a degree in Software Engineering.
b) Apprentice under a well-known industry recognized Software Engineer that writes BMW ECU software for a living (at least 3-5 years), so that you can appreciate the complexities of what you can and cannot do with modern BMW ECU's.
c) Open your own BMW tuning shop, where you can build and tune any BMW car under the sun.
d) Come back here and resume your conversation with Sal...THEN you can tell him how wrong he is about Methanol and tuning...

Any takers?
Good for you LBM

Thats makes complete sense to me, well explained
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      03-18-2010, 02:29 AM   #42
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There is not enough check valves, flow valves or any other forms of failsafe for me to touch methanol again. It's all about VP Q16 or go home. [ballers on VP Import excluded]

reasons:
- seals on the pumps that can handle methanol usually swells over time no matter what the manufactures/vendors say
- if the pump goes boom, unless somehow the ECU switches to another map soon as it detects knock of lack of flow, your motors goes lean and boom
- if the pumps sticks open, well... it's like your motor just submerged itself under water
- methanol Boiling Point: 64.7 C, 148.4 F, uh huh, you try that in methanol line under your hood in the dead summer heat
- methanol absorbs water, yep, you get that awesome mix of methanol with x-amount of water everytime it sprays
- nozzel spray patter, maybe you do a 'direct port' on every single runner, other than that, some cylinders get more methanol than others
- voids warranty but some just don't care

I hard my fair share of playing with the stuff, even some nitromethane, I now fully understand why the top fuel and funny car tuners gets the big bucks tuning 95% nitromethane

Last edited by Dartanium; 03-18-2010 at 02:37 AM.
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      03-18-2010, 05:56 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
So, in summary....don't use meth on the S65 unless the ionic knock correction has been properly calibrated, right ?? That isn't so difficult to understand, and it certainly doesn't warrant saying that running meth will blow an S65 engine PERIOD.

People in the US (specifically 91 octane states) are always going to turn to meth to produce more power due to octane restrictions, or poorly engineered set-ups, or both . Whether or not meth will maintain good engine life is 100% up to the tuner's understanding of the car's ECU, and meth's impact on how the factory knock detection identifies a knock event .
That is what I understood Sal's comment to mean all along. Basic logic and reading comprehension, without unnecessary inferences intended to create absolutes for argument purposes, suggested to me at least that is what he was saying. Unless mistaken, I never saw "running meth will blow an S65 engine PERIOD." That was how his comments were cast so they could be challenged and argued.

Then again, I am the same guy who will never understand why it is so important and so satisfying to some to draw lines in the sand, argue, and chest thump over matters that are truly inconsequential in the grand scheme of life . . . .
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      03-18-2010, 05:59 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
I directed it toward Sal because he would probably know more about those specific questions, and he's the one who's saying that Meth could blow up your S65, not the owners of the cars, and frankly I'm amazed by the claim, but I am not an expert on ion-flow and I would say 99% of the enthusiasts here are not as well, lol. I have no ill toward Sal he is not offending me, I just had some simple/basic questions.

I think some important info can come out of this, but I'd like to know why the burning properties of Meth deactivate KD? Don't you? Would C16 race fuel do the same? It burns different than 91, etc.

But if KD is simply turned off to run a SC, then it would seem that Meth would actually help control knock, not the other way around, so some clarification is in order.

A main question is what was the timing set at on these two cars?
What actually happened? Cracked piston? Ring lands gone? Also now, unless I'm taking this out of context, Sal is hinting that race fuel could possibly do the same to the S65 KD?

It appears there is no middle ground here, no opinions, either Meth blows up the S65 and makes ion flow shut off for some reason or it doesn't, there is No definitive explanation here on how or why.
Remember BMW runs a dynamic ignition system which tries to advance timing as much as possible (to configurable limits) without knock. If the knock control system is not working as expected, it's feasible the ECU could advance timing too much without detecting the resulting knock.

One way around this would be to tune conservative timing limits although that defeats the purpose somewhat of dynamic ignition control.

Ion sensing knock control is far more complex than acoustic sensing knock control - as I understand it, it allows the ECU to model cylinder pressures, temperatures and so on to detect knock (and which would also give it the ability to predict knock as well) - if methanol has different burn and pressure characteristics, I can see how this could affect the knock control system.

One real valid point brought up earlier by LMB is the whole failure scenario - if that meth pump fails, you are royally screwed unless the ECU can somehow detect the failure and apply corrections to address the failure (I've seen this with aftermarket ECUs like Motec and Autronic, but probably not possible with the Siemens ECU in its BMW configuration)...
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