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      03-16-2010, 05:21 PM   #1
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Methanol injection: cure-all, or cancer?

Now for some further information on the G-Power failures.


First car:
The kit was sold as an SK I and then upgraded as an SK II during the install. G-POWER shipped this supercharger with the indication that the car should only get 100 AKI octane gas. It seems that this indication wasn’t clear enough or well communicated because the information never given to the end customer. The customer was driving with 91 AKI octane, the engine was knocking, the software couldn’t correct the ignition enough which had a bad consequence, the engine blew up… Anyway G-POWER helped the customer.

Second car:
The second kit was sold as an SK II with the setting for 91 AKI octane but was installed with Methanol injection. This was installed without permission. Methanol injection didn’t allow to measure the knocking correctly (because of the type of knock detection system these cars come with) so the engine blew up on the dyno…As with the first kit, customer was helped with the engine.

Lesson to be learnt for buyers of any supercharger kits - don't use Methanol!
1st Lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - don't listen to anyone and always supply a tune for worst case scenario!

2nd lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - If people use methanol or anything that is not authorised don't replace the engine - why? Once you replace an engine you have in some way accepted responsibility and you get blamed for the failure instead!

The first supercharger kit from the above is still on a car and the tune is for 100 AKI octance only yet owner was still running 91 Octane!!

I'm sure the above will cause some controversy but I can assure you, a few of us have done quite alot of research on this topic and aquired information from many sources. Explains why no other engine around the world blew because of knocking!

I hope this is finally put to bed and I sincerely hope ESS and Gintani don't have the same problems. However, this is likely as it is rumoured that a few people are trying to add methanol to their kits also and the inevitable WILL happen. If this happens then it's likely your tune will blamed!
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      03-16-2010, 07:15 PM   #2
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Well all I can say is I don't over heat!

however if the cutting was less I'd be happier but I can live with it. I mean you going to get a supercharger not an intake system.

thanks for the information on everything !
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      03-17-2010, 12:02 AM   #3
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Methanol injection: cure-all, or cancer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Now for some further information on the G-Power failures.


First car:
The kit was sold as an SK I and then upgraded as an SK II during the install. G-POWER shipped this supercharger with the indication that the car should only get 100 AKI octane gas. It seems that this indication wasn’t clear enough or well communicated because the information never given to the end customer. The customer was driving with 91 AKI octane, the engine was knocking, the software couldn’t correct the ignition enough which had a bad consequence, the engine blew up… Anyway G-POWER helped the customer.

Second car:
The second kit was sold as an SK II with the setting for 91 AKI octane but was installed with Methanol injection. This was installed without permission. Methanol injection didn’t allow to measure the knocking correctly (because of the type of knock detection system these cars come with) so the engine blew up on the dyno…As with the first kit, customer was helped with the engine.

Lesson to be learnt for buyers of any supercharger kits - don't use Methanol!
1st Lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - don't listen to anyone and always supply a tune for worst case scenario!

2nd lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - If people use methanol or anything that is not authorised don't replace the engine - why? Once you replace an engine you have in some way accepted responsibility and you get blamed for the failure instead!

The first supercharger kit from the above is still on a car and the tune is for 100 AKI octance only yet owner was still running 91 Octane!!

I'm sure the above will cause some controversy but I can assure you, a few of us have done quite alot of research on this topic and aquired information from many sources. Explains why no other engine around the world blew because of knocking!

I hope this is finally put to bed and I sincerely hope ESS and Gintani don't have the same problems. However, this is likely as it is rumoured that a few people are trying to add methanol to their kits also and the inevitable WILL happen. If this happens then it's likely your tune will blamed!
Thanks for providing some clarity on what happened.
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      03-17-2010, 01:20 AM   #4
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      03-17-2010, 01:22 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ca$hOnly View Post
Thanks for providing some clarity on what happened.
+1 thank you
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      03-17-2010, 01:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Second car:
The second kit was sold as an SK II with the setting for 91 AKI octane but was installed with Methanol injection. This was installed without permission. Methanol injection didn’t allow to measure the knocking correctly (because of the type of knock detection system these cars come with) so the engine blew up on the dyno…As with the first kit, customer was helped with the engine.

Lesson to be learnt for buyers of any supercharger kits - don't use Methanol!
1st Lesson to be learnt for suppliers of supercharger kits - don't listen to anyone and always supply a tune for worst case scenario!
You make some good points, and thanks for the explanation, but Sal this part needs A LOT of explaining. Why would the car be knocking in the first place? I can understand if you tuned the car for 100 octane only, but simply adding WM will blow your motor, how so?
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      03-17-2010, 01:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Hi Bob,

It's great to see someone actually analysing this.

First off - I'll go back to the fact that Alpina, an OEM manufacturer, use a very similar setup which is destined for the whole world. They know exactly what they are doing. Infact, I don't even need to say that.
There is no way Alpina would incorporate this type of design if it was going to compromise reliability in different climates. Remember, they offer a warranty.

Intercooler Location - engine remains nice and cool. Infact, oil temps just don't go high. A combination of excellent air intake system, by far the best and well thought out of all of the supercharger systems utlizing the stock air feeds and airbox concepts, highly efficient supercharger and very effective intercooler all combine to give a very cool running car.

The simple and basic fact is that there are G-Power kits all over the world and they work well. Between 100-150 kits have been sold for different climates and fuel qualities.

Do you have any evidence that the Gintani or ESS kits run lower charge temperatures, lower coolant temperatures and lower oil temperatures?

Let's not base this on speculation and base it on facts.

I will finish by asking a few statements and questions -

1. ESS E46 M3 uses a monster FMIC
2. Active Autowerke E46 M3 uses a monster FMIC
3. Alpina race car uses same overall setup as G-Power SK range - why did they not go the seperate circuit route? I mean this is a proper race car, surely they would want to have the most efficient setup protecting the engine for as long as possible from heat build up? Alpina race cars and OEM cars have enough money spent on them not to worry about small compromises.
4. Maybe cutting the front panel was a decision G-Power made for a reason? Sure it has a compromise but it's likely that the compromise was well worth it.
5. Look at the dyno graphs between all of the kits, notice how the G-Power has the fullest torque curve and one of the highest RWHP readings.

It's quite clear there are major OEM influences on the G-Power setup and everything has been done for a reason.

Front Panel and a few hours extra labour is not something that needs to compromised on.

We will also need to look into the two blown engines a little more closely which are the very reason why this kit has come under scrutiny. Some interesting facts will be revealed as to what exactly happened. It will be interesting to see how people's perceptions change!
Thanks Sal

Again I am no expert, I know what I know from researching since I bought an ESS VT2 575 kit for my DCT.

I think the G Power kit looks the best, but I suppose you just get a feeling from the people you work with. ESS, Gintani and G Power have kits that work, its unfortunate that GPower had an initial setback, but hey if the kit works and clients are happy then all good.

I would love to see a dyno done on the same day between G Power Gintani and ESS all with same boost of 6PSI and same RON fuel.

I would like to see operating temps of oil, coolant and all other data. Also db readings of sound of blower.

We can all agree that the following is best:
1. High whp
2. Quiet operation
3. Low Temps
4. Safe Tune iro fuel/air rations etc

This will be the final chapter in ending speculation of who the best is. HOWEVER you will probably find that where one is higher HP, it will be hotter and noisier or vice versa. Its a zero sum gae and I highly doubt one kit will excel in all three categories, but I would love to be proved wrong

There are forum members here with a kit from all three companies, why not coordinate this properly once and for all. Any one up to the job, it would make for the most popular thread of all time.

I am thrilled to be receiving my ESS kit, it ships in two days

Sexy times its nice!!!!
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      03-17-2010, 03:18 AM   #8
Sal@Evolve
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Oh I see! You're an ESS customer! No wonder you're having a pop at the G-Power!.....just kidding

The main point is that your joining the supercharger club and you will basically have one hell of a fast M3!

With regards to the individual brands, it's important that facts are made clear and any one brand is not given an unfair disadvantage.

As for testing them both against each other - that would be interesting!

Until then, you can do some testing of your own against my results once your charger is fitted.

In 24+ degC I did over 20 consecutive dyno pulls with no breaks. Oil temperature remained under 100 degC and coolant was no hotter than if I did the same thing on a NA setup. Also, the power remained consistent.
On the road (Private) - 6th gear pulls reaching the very top of the rpm range (yes, this is going very very fast) - no issues.

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 03-17-2010 at 03:31 AM.
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      03-17-2010, 03:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
You make some good points, and thanks for the explanation, but Sal this part needs A LOT of explaining. Why would the car be knocking in the first place? I can understand if you tuned the car for 100 octane only, but simply adding WM will blow your motor, how so?
Methanol burns differently. Combined with zero knock detection the inevitable will happen to ALL kits which don't knock running on petrol.

Other brands do not give permission to run methanol also.

I guarantee you though, people will use it and you will hear more stories of motors blowing.
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      03-17-2010, 07:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN View Post
well maybe he just doesn't understand it all.

but I have nothing to hide anyways
Eugene, you are a good sport with the right attitude!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
You make some good points, and thanks for the explanation, but Sal this part needs A LOT of explaining. Why would the car be knocking in the first place? I can understand if you tuned the car for 100 octane only, but simply adding WM will blow your motor, how so?
Drew, Sal does not have you questioning your decision to use WM on your Gintani SC does it?
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      03-17-2010, 09:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Methanol burns differently. Combined with zero knock detection the inevitable will happen to ALL kits which don't knock running on petrol.

Other brands do not give permission to run methanol also.

I guarantee you though, people will use it and you will hear more stories of motors blowing.
No offense Sal, this still needs a better explanation before one can make such a bold claim, you are basing this off of one cars experience? The car that blew up was it running Meth or a Water/Meth mixture? How long was it running it before it blew? What was the timing set at on that car? "Zero Knock" detection, how does running WM turn off the cars ability to activate KD? Especially if you use a small shot that most likely evaporates before it hits the CC?
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      03-17-2010, 09:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05SCM3 View Post
Drew, Sal does not have you questioning your decision to use WM on your Gintani SC does it?
No, but Sal seems like a smart/reasonable guy, the claim he is making is based on one car, that motor may have blown for other reasons. I have NEVER heard of a car blowing up because it was running Meth, but if there's something about this cars KD that turns off when WM is used, then that needs to be explained further, IMHO.
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      03-17-2010, 03:40 PM   #13
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What makes sense to me and what makes sense to you all depends on our understanding of how the MSS6x ECU's work.

We are not in the business of simply 'making things up'. Feel free to go and look into the technicalities yourself. You cannot argue with the ECU strategy and how the sensors work.

The v8 engine of the M3 uses a very sophisticated method to detect knock. Whilst the conmen method is to use a probe operation like, in plain speaking, a microphone that actually “hears” the knocking of the engine, the M3 uses the ion current of the spark plug to detect engine knocking.

When methanol injection is used in combination with a tuned software that uses the standard settings for the ion current measurement, the engine is not capable of recognizing engine knocking properly.

If you want to prove this theory to yourself, get a standard V8 and put methanol through it and see what happens.

If the knock detection system was similar to the older systems then no problem would arise.

I am not going to argue with anyone or force my opinion upon them. You either believe or you don't. Anyone who understands the ECU will confirm the above. The only thing I ask is that we do not rubbish each other's opinion without having some hard evidence first.

So I am saying, based on my understanding of the ECU, that methanol will cause problems with the knock detection system (and it does!).

If you want to rubbish that statement then please do so with some technical information rather than 'it doesn't make sense'.

It's no different than me trying to explain prime number theory to you and you coming back and saying it makes no sense. It makes no sense because you don't understand it.

No offence intended here but I will not be giving lessons on knock detection systems and the ball is now in your court to show me (and the rest of us) that methanol bares no effect on the knock detecion system. Good luck!
The more I explain the more information I will need to provide and then that information in turn will make no sense either.

Just as a final note - on this very forum another supercharger company has clearly stated that methanol should not be used with their setup. They obviously have reason for saying this.

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      03-17-2010, 03:46 PM   #14
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      03-17-2010, 03:51 PM   #15
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      03-17-2010, 04:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
What makes sense to me and what makes sense to you all depends on our understanding of how the MSS6x ECU's work.

We are not in the business of simply 'making things up'. Feel free to go and look into the technicalities yourself. You cannot argue with the ECU strategy and how the sensors work.

The v8 engine of the M3 uses a very sophisticated method to detect knock. Whilst the conmen method is to use a probe operation like, in plain speaking, a microphone that actually “hears” the knocking of the engine, the M3 uses the ion current of the spark plug to detect engine knocking.

When methanol injection is used in combination with a tuned software that uses the standard settings for the ion current measurement, the engine is not capable of recognizing engine knocking properly.

If you want to prove this theory to yourself, get a standard V8 and put methanol through it and see what happens.

If the knock detection system was similar to the older systems then no problem would arise.

I am not going to argue with anyone or force my opinion upon them. You either believe or you don't. Anyone who understands the ECU will confirm the above. The only thing I ask is that we do not rubbish each other's opinion without having some hard evidence first.

So I am saying, based on my understanding of the ECU, that methanol will cause problems with the knock detection system (and it does!).

If you want to rubbish that statement then please do so with some technical information rather than 'it doesn't make sense'.

It's no different than me trying to explain prime number theory to you and you coming back and saying it makes no sense. It makes no sense because you don't understand it.

No offence intended here but I will not be giving lessons on knock detection systems and the ball is now in your court to show me (and the rest of us) that methanol bares no effect on the knock detecion system. Good luck!
The more I explain the more information I will need to provide and then that information in turn will make no sense either.

Just as a final note - on this very forum another supercharger company has clearly stated that methanol should not be used with their setup. They obviously have reason for saying this.
You stated adding meth will blow your motor. That is not accurate at all. If your motor is not tuned correctly, your motor will blow. Adding meth is not going to cause your motor to blow. If anything it helps prevent that by increasing octane levels (which is a great thing for performance motors).

I understand the Ion current knock sensor device and what its specifications are. The tuners that can change the calibration values for the ion current measurements can change what parameters the ecu will recognize knock at. Adding methanol is a good and easy way to raise octane levels, your motor shouldn't be knocking if you have a good tuner already, adding meth to it doesnt mean the motor will start knocking.

Do you know what parameters the S65 knock detection software is set at? Do you know how methanol really effects the values being read?

You do know adding race gas burns differently as well, will this blow your motor as well?

For the final note. Has that company tested methanol and how it changes the values the knock system readings? That company also said they are against meth with the S54 motors, why is that?

Last edited by tazam3; 03-17-2010 at 04:19 PM.
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      03-17-2010, 04:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazam3 View Post
You stated adding meth will blow your matter.

That is not accurate at all. If your motor is not tuned correctly, your motor will blow. Adding meth is not going to cause your motor to blow.

But it's (the G Power kit) not tuned for methanol..... that's the whole point here! Methanol intefers with the knock detection system!

I understand the Ion current knock sensor device and what its specifications are. The tuners that can change the calibration values for the ion current measurements can change what parameters the ecu will recognize knock at.

If you understand the knock detection system then you will be able to explain what happens if you do use methanol and don't change the values.

Adding methanol is a good and easy way to raise octane levels, your motor shouldn't be knocking if you have a good tuner already, adding meth to it doesnt mean the motor will start knocking.

Who said anything about methanol being a bad thing? Let's be specific here. It's not very good for the V8 which has not been setup for it.

Do you know what parameters the S65 knock detection software is set at? Do you know how methanol really effects the values being read?

Yes and yes. That's why I also understand that if there is enough demand then the likes of G power and other companies will and can alter the tuning to cater for methanol. I will add that we are on of the only companies around that are making the S65 run on LPG. That certainly has it's 'effects'!

You do know adding race gas burns differently as well, will this blow your motor as well?

If it effects the knock detection system then anything is possible. Are we talking about the same burn? .

For the final note. Has that company tested methanol and how it changes the values the knock system readings? That company also said they are against meth with the S54 motors, why is that
I don't know, ask them.
,

Last edited by Sal@Evolve; 03-17-2010 at 04:38 PM.
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      03-17-2010, 04:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
,
Race gas depending on what type can burn like methanol. Some burn very fast and some burn very slow, do you think this will effect the knock system? In turn will this blow the motor?

What im trying to get at is that meth wont blow your motor. It is supposed to prevent it. If your motor is knocking then your tuner needs a better job. Ive never had a knocking problem and thats wit my S54 going through a vast number of setups.

Yes methanol might effect some knock control systems, however that also depends on what parameters that specific knock control system is set at. If your motor is tuned right (which its supposed to) then adding meth should have no negative effects at all.

But i do get what your trying to explain about the knock system, but simply stating adding meth will inevitably cause your motor to blow is not accurate.

Some tuners like to mention they dont use meth to sound like they tune better then others. I dont like that.
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      03-17-2010, 04:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazam3 View Post
Race gas depending on what type can burn like methanol. Some burn very fast and some burn very slow, do you think this will effect the knock system? In turn will this blow the motor?

What im trying to get at is that meth wont blow your motor. It is supposed to prevent it. If your motor is knocking then your tuner needs a better job. Ive never had a knocking problem and thats wit my S54 going through a vast number of setups.

Yes methanol might effect some knock control systems, however that also depends on what parameters that specific knock control system is set at. If your motor is tuned right (which its supposed to) then adding meth should have no negative effects at all.

But i do get what your trying to explain about the knock system, but simply stating adding meth will inevitably cause your motor to blow is not accurate.

Some tuners like to mention they dont use meth to sound like they tune better then others. I dont like that.
Theoritically you are correct in what you say about methanol but this is a very specific case with the type of system where general theory cannot be applied because one variable has drastically changed. We are being very very specific here. We are talking about the S65 motor only.

I have to agree. I don't like it when tuners say that either.

I'm not going to say anymore. The more I say the more I am likely to offend you and I really don't want to do that.

So we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm sure someone else will be along with hard evidence that methanol has no effect on the ion knock detection system.
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      03-17-2010, 05:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Theoritically you are correct in what you say about methanol but this is a very specific case with the type of system where general theory cannot be applied because one variable has drastically changed. We are being very very specific here. We are talking about the S65 motor only.

I have to agree. I don't like it when tuners say that either.

I'm not going to say anymore. The more I say the more I am likely to offend you and I really don't want to do that.

So we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm sure someone else will be along with hard evidence that methanol has no effect on the ion knock detection system.
Not getting offended.

Can you give hard evidence that methanol injected into the S65 causes the knock control to stop working? Can you also give hard evidence that methanol causes the S65 to blow?
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      03-17-2010, 06:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I don't get it Drew, why are you asking this? You know exactly whose car it was and you know exactly how long it was running. You probably see and talk to him at least once per week when you were getting your kit installed at Gintani. Why are you asking Sal when you can get the answer directly from the car's owner?

This thread is getting absolutely annoying. It's the typical BS that keeps going on and will never end. When somebody -- with considerable tuning expertise -- says anything that contradicts what you guys want to hear, a whole gang of the same people -- who have absolutely no tuning expertise -- come in and destroy the thread. I'll say the same thing Jason said in Drew's thread. Stop this crap now or else this thread will be closed and infractions may be issued.
I directed it toward Sal because he would probably know more about those specific questions, and he's the one who's saying that Meth could blow up your S65, not the owners of the cars, and frankly I'm amazed by the claim, but I am not an expert on ion-flow and I would say 99% of the enthusiasts here are not as well, lol. I have no ill toward Sal he is not offending me, I just had some simple/basic questions.

I think some important info can come out of this, but I'd like to know why the burning properties of Meth deactivate KD? Don't you? Would C16 race fuel do the same? It burns different than 91, etc.

But if KD is simply turned off to run a SC, then it would seem that Meth would actually help control knock, not the other way around, so some clarification is in order.

A main question is what was the timing set at on these two cars? What actually happened? Cracked piston? Ring lands gone? Also now, unless I'm taking this out of context, Sal is hinting that race fuel could possibly do the same to the S65 KD?

It appears there is no middle ground here, no opinions, either Meth blows up the S65 and makes ion flow shut off for some reason or it doesn't, there is No definitive explanation here on how or why.
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      03-17-2010, 07:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
This thread is getting absolutely annoying. It's the typical BS that keeps going on and will never end. When somebody -- with considerable tuning expertise -- says anything that contradicts what you guys want to hear, a whole gang of the same people -- who have absolutely no tuning expertise -- come in and destroy the thread. I'll say the same thing Jason said in Drew's thread. Stop this crap now or else this thread will be closed and infractions may be issued.
I think your comment is very childish and you of all people should roll with this discussion as Sal has made a bold statement and it would be to the benefit of the community to get a understanding of it. To state that methanol affects the knock protection is quite a statement would could do with a whole thread dedicated to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
I directed it toward Sal because he would probably know more about those specific questions, and he's the one who's saying that Meth could blow up your S65, not the owners of the cars, and frankly I'm amazed by the claim, but I am not an expert on ion-flow and I would say 99% of the enthusiasts here are not as well, lol. I have no ill toward Sal he is not offending me, I just had some simple/basic questions.

I think some important info can come out of this, but I'd like to know why the burning properties of Meth deactivate KD? Don't you? Would C16 race fuel do the same? It burns different than 91, etc.


It appears there is no middle ground here, no opinions, either Meth blows up the S65 and makes ion flow shut off for some reason or it doesn't, there is No definitive explanation here on how or why.
The only way I can imagine this to occur is that if methanol has different electrical properties to normal fuel and it changes the voltage between the gap of the plug and the ECU gets a wrong reading and thinks there is no knock when there is knock. This is highly unlikely in my humble opinion though but one possibility. If this is the case with car 2 which was tuned for the 91 octane on the SK2 kit but still broke the motor on the dyno due to the use of the methanol then surely a knock like that would be audible unless it was knocking all along and the dyno was the last straw or maybe the knock feature was removed from the software.

I am prepared to run a experiment on my S85 which also has a ion knock system and see how methanol will affect the knock readings. I will also try convince M&M to do the same on his S65. We both have flash tuning capability so it should not be so hard to do a Mythbusters test.

As a disclaimer and since I know the ban hammer is knocked around (excuse the pun) often I would like to say that I am a big fan of GPower and I think there S65 kit is the best of the four available and am even considering there kit of my S85 so in now way is this a bashing post.
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Last edited by GeorgeSmooth; 03-17-2010 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Disclaimer
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