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      03-16-2010, 03:39 PM   #23
PunjabiM3
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This comes as no surprise to me. Good info!
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      03-16-2010, 03:42 PM   #24
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All I can say is, wow. That's pretty crazy... Oh well. Win some, lose some. Where's the technocraft rep??? Eric from PYSpeed?? I'd love to hear what you all have to say about these independent test results....

Last edited by pumper206; 03-16-2010 at 04:00 PM. Reason: In addition...
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      03-16-2010, 07:20 PM   #25
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I think overall it would be safe to say that the charge pipe provides no measurable performance gains ON THE ROAD based upon the results. The results may be different on a dyno - perhaps on a dyno with insufficient air flow, the larger volume of the Envy charge pipe might help? Who really knows...

In terms of performance, I wouldn't hand on heart say the stock charge pipe performs better as there are other factors that can affect acceleration results from road testing (e.g. is the road perfectly level, are small bumps in the road amplifying peaks/troughs in the acceleration data). My impression is that the car FEELS faster with the stock charge pipe, but my perception likely will be heavily influenced by the results I obtained.

So two things that are clear from this:
  • The Envy charge pipe doesn't give any noticeable performance gains ON THE ROAD (which of course is more important than on the dyno)
  • The Stock charge pipe appears to provide better intake air temperatures (albeit relatively minor). Given the materials used and extremely thin construction of the Envy charge pipe, this seems to be a reasonable result.
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      03-16-2010, 09:39 PM   #26
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Makes me feel a bit taken advantage of....The charge pipe seemed practical at the time of purchase but now doesn't seem to be after your testing. By the way, thanks for posting your results and going through all the trouble.
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      03-16-2010, 10:15 PM   #27
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Sorry pal , these results are a surprise to me as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pumper206 View Post
Makes me feel a bit taken advantage of....The charge pipe seemed practical at the time of purchase but now doesn't seem to be after your testing. By the way, thanks for posting your results and going through all the trouble.
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      03-16-2010, 11:21 PM   #28
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Can you do the same test for with and w/o the AFE scoops?
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      03-16-2010, 11:42 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardo629 View Post
Can you do the same test for with and w/o the AFE scoops?
Yes I plan to - I have Turner catless down pipes going on soon for which I am going to run similar tests...will do this at the same time and may also look at stock vs BMC air filter...
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      03-17-2010, 01:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xchosun1x View Post
interesting results...

it might just be in my head..but I really felt power gain and especially response from my charge pipe...

wonder what the deal is...
so does a noisy exhaust make you think you are going faster when you you gain like 3 hp. Go figure, we are all suckers, we want to believe as otherwise we vomit at the thought of throwing money away
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      03-17-2010, 01:53 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
I think overall it would be safe to say that the charge pipe provides no measurable performance gains ON THE ROAD based upon the results. The results may be different on a dyno - perhaps on a dyno with insufficient air flow, the larger volume of the Envy charge pipe might help? Who really knows...

In terms of performance, I wouldn't hand on heart say the stock charge pipe performs better as there are other factors that can affect acceleration results from road testing (e.g. is the road perfectly level, are small bumps in the road amplifying peaks/troughs in the acceleration data). My impression is that the car FEELS faster with the stock charge pipe, but my perception likely will be heavily influenced by the results I obtained.

So two things that are clear from this:
  • The Envy charge pipe doesn't give any noticeable performance gains ON THE ROAD (which of course is more important than on the dyno)
  • The Stock charge pipe appears to provide better intake air temperatures (albeit relatively minor). Given the materials used and extremely thin construction of the Envy charge pipe, this seems to be a reasonable result.
I believe that the Envy Charge pipe works when there is a 60 MPH fan blowing in front of the car in the dyno. Did you simulate this?
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      03-17-2010, 02:33 AM   #32
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not a surprise to me either. thanks for taking the time.

without trying to sound like a hater, i can't believe so many people bought into this from a performance perspective. as a cosmetic mod, it's nice though.
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      03-17-2010, 03:05 AM   #33
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Now I want to see some testing like this on a Dinan charge pipe!

Thanks for sharing!
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      03-17-2010, 03:08 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
I believe that the Envy Charge pipe works when there is a 60 MPH fan blowing in front of the car in the dyno. Did you simulate this?
Can you explain why a 60 mile an hour FAN blowing at a car on a dyno:

A) Simulates real world performance better than actually driving the car ON THE ROAD?
B) Would benefit the stock pipe moreso than the Envy pipe? If so, why? Is it because the fan might cool off the heat soak-prone Envy when the hood is up? (again not representative of real-world conditions)
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      03-17-2010, 03:43 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
Can you explain why a 60 mile an hour FAN blowing at a car on a dyno:

A) Simulates real world performance better than actually driving the car ON THE ROAD?
B) Would benefit the stock pipe moreso than the Envy pipe? If so, why? Is it because the fan might cool off the heat soak-prone Envy when the hood is up? (again not representative of real-world conditions)
Just that the fan simulates ram air at speed. There is no benefit to fitting a larger charge pipe to get power on a dyno, unless there is air velocity which will translate into more air being forced into eh engine. this is how they did their original testing at Gintani.

Give the guys a chance to answer this, no point in crucifying them until all angles are covered and debated.

I liked my Envy when I had it for a whole 6 days, went FI so had no need to keep it
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      03-17-2010, 04:44 AM   #36
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This testing is really appreciated. At least we agree it looks quite good.

I am dubious that the scoops will do any better, and they really are difficult to accurately/scientifically test. The stock air comes straight in and up from the driver side bumper intake, and it's large. The scoops attach to a less direct airpath where they must make some 90-degree turns through smaller diameter tubing. I just can't see scoops helping at all.

You have to make sure the main bumper intake is fanned just as much as the scoops when you test or the results will be BS. Before initiating, you should hold a hand-held anemometer in front of the scoops and the main driver side bumper intake to make sure you're distributing that air fairly.
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      03-17-2010, 04:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Yes I plan to - I have Turner catless down pipes going on soon for which I am going to run similar tests...will do this at the same time and may also look at stock vs BMC air filter...
Have you decided which software you're going to use with the catless pipes??
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      03-17-2010, 06:45 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
Just that the fan simulates ram air at speed. There is no benefit to fitting a larger charge pipe to get power on a dyno, unless there is air velocity which will translate into more air being forced into eh engine. this is how they did their original testing at Gintani.
I guarantee you that the car was receiving more "ram air" effect on this road test from 6,000 RPM to 8,300 RPM in 3rd gear (~100 MPH) than a 60 MPH fan would make. Read the OP, 3rd gear pull.

Forced air effects make very little difference once you go past the stock airbox. The greater factor would be intake air temperatures which are logged to be higher with the uninsulated pipe compared to the superior stock one.
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      03-17-2010, 07:02 AM   #39
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I am a little skeptical of a Virtual Dyno based on PG's findings. Having said that if you could share how you made your calculations I would love to give this a shot. I have the BT and a iphone, so this could be fun. I think I will reserve real dyno numbers for judgment though. Nice work.
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      03-17-2010, 09:30 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xchosun1x View Post
interesting results...

it might just be in my head..but I really felt power gain and especially response from my charge pipe...

wonder what the deal is...

i also have a hi flow drop in and scoops.
It's probably because you were pressing the gas pedal with your "fast" sneakers on.
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      03-17-2010, 09:32 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxe92xx View Post
yeah i knew it was bullshit from the first thread about it....the stock system can not be beat!
That's right. RPI Scoops are next in the crosshairs
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      03-17-2010, 12:20 PM   #42
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From Charge Pipe in general any sense????
For what such greater money???
Write that 14 horses add?! It is lie???
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      03-17-2010, 03:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
I am a little skeptical of a Virtual Dyno based on PG's findings. Having said that if you could share how you made your calculations I would love to give this a shot. I have the BT and a iphone, so this could be fun. I think I will reserve real dyno numbers for judgment though. Nice work.
The ECU Power and Torque graph results are derived using the same method as the Virtual Dyno.

The issue with Virtual Dyno is that the configured torque limits in the ECU for whatever reason affect the "Actual Torque" values that are output. I've seen this in person whereby my original Powerchip tune did not have high enough torque limits configured. In this state the ECU was reporting the engine was making close to 500HP uncorrected. Since I have had the torque limits fixed, the ECU is now reporting making around 450HP which is far more believable - but this shows how the torque limits affect the "Actual Torque" values.

So this most definitely throws into question the accuracy of the values in absolute terms, however in relative terms, I think it is reasonable to assume that as long as the ECU tune remains constant, the "Actual Torque" values can be safely considered accurate as a relative measure.

In absolute terms, I would certainly take notice of the other values that are actual measurement-based values - e.g. intake air temperatures, air fuel ratios...without these being fairly accurate in absolute terms, the engine would not actually be able to perform correctly.

On the iPhone side, have a look for Dynolicious Log Box in the App Store - it is basically a logging application that logs accelerometer and GPS data and can log up to 100 samples per second. You can export the data and then use the raw data for whatever purpose you need.

Note that the acceleration values presented are not corrected whatsoever - the correction factor for the stock pipe was actually slightly lower than for the envy pipe so applying them would have worked in the stock pipe's favour.
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      03-17-2010, 03:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
The ECU Power and Torque graph results are derived using the same method as the Virtual Dyno.

The issue with Virtual Dyno is that the configured torque limits in the ECU for whatever reason affect the "Actual Torque" values that are output. I've seen this in person whereby my original Powerchip tune did not have high enough torque limits configured. In this state the ECU was reporting the engine was making close to 500HP uncorrected. Since I have had the torque limits fixed, the ECU is now reporting making around 450HP which is far more believable - but this shows how the torque limits affect the "Actual Torque" values.

So this most definitely throws into question the accuracy of the values in absolute terms, however in relative terms, I think it is reasonable to assume that as long as the ECU tune remains constant, the "Actual Torque" values can be safely considered accurate as a relative measure.

In absolute terms, I would certainly take notice of the other values that are actual measurement-based values - e.g. intake air temperatures, air fuel ratios...without these being fairly accurate in absolute terms, the engine would not actually be able to perform correctly.

On the iPhone side, have a look for Dynolicious Log Box in the App Store - it is basically a logging application that logs accelerometer and GPS data and can log up to 100 samples per second. You can export the data and then use the raw data for whatever purpose you need.

Note that the acceleration values presented are not corrected whatsoever - the correction factor for the stock pipe was actually slightly lower than for the envy pipe so applying them would have worked in the stock pipe's favour.

Great - thanks for the info - I will play around with it. I have Dynolicious and the Log Box app already. I am not sure though is is calibrating for me properly though. I played around with Dynolicious last fall and all my numbers were very inconsistent. I tried it with a stock filter, then an AA filter, then a MS filter - all pretty much the same results (418-425). Then I added an AA exhaust and still in the same range.
I have not played around with the Log box yet though so I will see how that goes.

Cheers
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