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      03-17-2010, 10:47 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
It's cool, we're all sharing opinions. I bear no ill will to anybody who disagrees with me. (I've been wrong too many times).



Comfort is relative - here is what I mean. All M3's have had a high standard spec, and could be loaded with every single comfort feature available on the 3 series of their era.

If you mean suspension comfort, there is a big difference between crashy and compliant. Where the E46 crashed through small road imperfections (potholes, expansion ridges) and fidgeted on bumpy roads, the E90 is more composed and more compliant over small imperfections. That speaks of better bushing selection and much better dampers.

Similar story with the E36, was a tad crashy yet at the same time rolled a little too much stock. I had a chance to drive my ex-E36 back to back with my then-current E46 ZHP (a car of similar size/weight/specs) over an unruly piece of heaved concrete highway and the ZHP was much more composed without giving away handling-wise - all down to dampers IMO.

EDC is the single most valuable option for a street driven E9x, IMO. Tightens down really well when in Sport mode - there is very little slack in that mode. It offers more comfort when you want, and the car simply handles better when you want. Has less understeer, more adjustable on the throttle, simply incredible on high speed sweepers. I find the combination mind blowing.



Granted. That's all we've got here in these discussions.

Because if yo go by the numbers, the E9x is a much more capable car, on and off the track.




I'm saying that's not saying much.

For example, the ZHP steering blowed the ZCP steering into the weeds. You need to try one to believe it, I thought it was better than the E36 M3. Delicate, feelsome, consistently weighed at all speeds.

We'll also have to wait for the E9x ZCP if you want to compare to the E46 ZCP.

Very valid points, besides the comfort. Comfort is not a determining factor for soul of a sports car. If you are taking comfort into consideration for soul... The C63 is a a car with a hell of a lot more soul than any M3 - but we know its not.
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      03-17-2010, 11:42 AM   #46
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Another observation: there are many little things that have been improved in the E9x M3s.

o The automatic windshield wiper mode functions a bit better. The E46 would be a little too late swiping or a little too early. The E92 seems to be perfect.

o There is not as big a difference from normal to Sport mode for the throttle response. I think the E92 has this implemented better.

o DSC is not as noticeable. When the E46 M3 DSC applied the brakes or fiddled with the throttle you could virtually come to a stop. And this is especially at times when you really didn't want to. The E92 M3 DSC seems to be less intrusive. Maybe it acts faster or is just smarter, but it doesn't stop you in order to keep the front and rear wheels from swapping places.

o The rev limiter doesn't completely cut the throttle on you in the E92 like it did in the E46. It's a "soft" limiter as opposed to a "hard" limiter. However, this is going by what others have said; I have not experienced this yet in the E92 M3.

o Some things that you had to go to the dealer to change -- like whether it takes one or two taps on the key remote to open all doors, DRL on or off, etc. -- you can now change yourself. Pretty cool, since dealers like to charge for this.

There's probably many more little things that have been improved that we don't know about. This, of course, should be expected in a new car, but I just wanted to mention it.

There's a few things they didn't improve, IMHO. The number one thing is that there is no oil dipstick.
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      03-17-2010, 12:36 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
Very valid points, besides the comfort. Comfort is not a determining factor for soul of a sports car. If you are taking comfort into consideration for soul... The C63 is a a car with a hell of a lot more soul than any M3 - but we know its not.
Actually, the C63 is on par as far as comfort features but rides much harsher than the M3, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.


But E46 and E90 differences aside, I am not totally sure either one qualifies as a true sports car. To my eyes, they are more like GT's with sporting intentions, and all the better for it - if I wanted a true sports car, I think I'd get an Elise or something like that.
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      03-17-2010, 05:42 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post

EDIT: BTW, the average M3 on the market is 3700 pounds. With your logic of increasing weight, the next M3 should be around 4000 pounds. The M3 after that should be 4300 pounds. Sorry man, thats not a valid argument. The difference between the E30, 36, 46 and 92 should not be looked at as "hey, its the pattern". Times have changed, technology has changed. These vehicles should be going lighter, not the other way around and then using the growth between E30 and E36 to justify it.
I don't know if it was the writer's logic but the reality of what goes on with each succession m3 model. While I agree, it would be nice that vehicles should be lighter with each version, the writer is pointing out that in reality it has never happened with the m3, but the opposite...its has gotten heavier every time. You can't berate him for pointing out the truth.

The only new model that I seen in recent years that weight less then the previous generation was the current 370Z, which actually weights close to the previous generation 350z.

Even 911s bump up in weight every successive version.
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      03-17-2010, 06:08 PM   #49
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I believe the new GT500 will be losing weight and will be as fast as us around the track
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      03-17-2010, 06:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
I don't know if it was the writer's logic but the reality of what goes on with each succession m3 model. While I agree, it would be nice that vehicles should be lighter with each version, the writer is pointing out that in reality it has never happened with the m3, but the opposite...its has gotten heavier every time. You can't berate him for pointing out the truth.
Thank you.

I was indeed simply pointing out that the E92 is not the worst offender of all the M3 generation changes - the E46 was just as guilty (yet is somehow hailed as this super-lightweight nimble fighting machine).

Given that the 3 series grows in size with each generation, even with the adoption of some lighter weight materials and some different construction techniques, I find it very unlikely that new generations will be lighter than the old ones. We should consider ourselves lucky if weight stays the same.

As long as the M3 is built off the 3 series platform, I expect that whatever weight trend the 3 series suffers from, the M3 will duplicate.


I've heard rumors the F10 M5 will again resort to an aluminum front structure as well as other measures to keep weight in check. I'll believe it when I see it...
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      03-17-2010, 06:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
I don't know if it was the writer's logic but the reality of what goes on with each succession m3 model. While I agree, it would be nice that vehicles should be lighter with each version, the writer is pointing out that in reality it has never happened with the m3, but the opposite...its has gotten heavier every time. You can't berate him for pointing out the truth.

The only new model that I seen in recent years that weight less then the previous generation was the current 370Z, which actually weights close to the previous generation 350z.

Even 911s bump up in weight every successive version.
Hey war,

not berating him bro, but I honestly dont see the next M3 being 4000 pounds. I really dont. It dosnt make sense. And the one after will be 4200-4300 pounds? No way man.

I am a big advocate of looking at the past and questioning the future, but there will be a tipping point. And I believe that tipping point will be on the next M3. I think it will be the same weight, if not lighter than the E9x.

I actually thought the E92 would be the tipping point but I was a bit off, I gave them too much credit as far as implementing newer technologies to go lighter. They are fighting an uphill battle with safety regs and luxury demands.
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      03-17-2010, 06:48 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Thank you.

I was indeed simply pointing out that the E92 is not the worst offender of all the M3 generation changes - the E46 was just as guilty (yet is somehow hailed as this super-lightweight nimble fighting machine).

Given that the 3 series grows in size with each generation, even with the adoption of some lighter weight materials and some different construction techniques, I find it very unlikely that new generations will be lighter than the old ones. We should consider ourselves lucky if weight stays the same.

As long as the M3 is built off the 3 series platform, I expect that whatever weight trend the 3 series suffers from, the M3 will duplicate.


I've heard rumors the F10 M5 will again resort to an aluminum front structure as well as other measures to keep weight in check. I'll believe it when I see it...
adc, somehow this is off track. Look Im not saying the E92 is the worse offender or its not a good car. I own one and love it and I encourage anyone who wants a sports coupe to get one.

Let me clarify this... The E92 is cool, but the E46 was cooler in its time. I might be over defending the E46 and that might be because I dont believe for a second that its glory was artificial - which is what triggered this convo.

Again, theres TONS of cars out there with V8s. How many have high revving I6s??? Thats what made the E46 special and to me, the engine on a car has a lot more to do with a cars "soul" than how granny feels on her way to the market.

Just sayin.

That high revving Inline 6, the tight/stiff suspension, the gearbox, the steering feel, the sound of the I6 screaming (no engine sounds like that), the raspy exhaust... all this made the E46 more special than the E92. But again, thats just an opinion
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      03-17-2010, 08:51 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperlativE90 View Post
Does the e90/2 m3 have the same "soul" or sheer balance that the e46 m3 did?
I know the v8 produces much more power, but the e46 was in equilibrium with a high revving straight 6 and outstanding handling and that is why it was so successful.

I might be giving up my 335i for an e46 m3 or maybe if im lucky I can get a good deal on an e90/2.
Just wanted to get some opinions...

Thanks in advance!

I know this is in a way a very stupid question, as it is still an M3 and really such a beast... But I want advice from some of you who have first hand experience
Good questions, I've had the same decisions over the last couple of years. I sold my 335i coupe for an e46 M3. That was an easy decision - M cars are designed primarily for outstanding handling its not all about straight line acceleration. I now have an e92 M3 and it has everything the e46 lacked. Unfortunatley they forgot to bring the precison steering. Avoid the e46 SMG like the plague, it is lame. When driven hard the e92 has more soul, i think. Good luck.
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      03-17-2010, 10:52 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
You're welcome.

Here's the old gal:


She's beautiful.
And my oh my, the e30 never gets old!
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      03-18-2010, 02:17 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I have also owned a E36 M3, E46 M3 and E92 M3. Sorry but what you're saying makes no sense.

Add 400 pounds, add more luxury options, make people get navigation so they can have M-dynamic mode, take away the spirit of the M3 (high revving I6) and give it a V8, reduce feedback from the road, cater more to the luxury market....

and you think that has MORE SOUL?!?! what are you talking about here?

The E46 M3 was "artificial"?!?! Really? I'll tell you what, I'm glad you started that sentence with "In my opinion" because thats all it really is, your opinion. And its safe to say your opinion is fairly biased because of how much you value comfort.

You consider "taking grandma to the store" in comfort a factor for soul? If you are talking about which car is a smoother everyday driver, thats one thing. But to say it has more soul because your granny feels comfy is... I dont even know.

Jesus. This is the reason the M3 is becoming more and more of a slave to the luxury market.
Yes I did say in my opinion. Thank-you for stating yours. That's is what I love about our cars, we get so passionate about them!

But in my defense let me lay out my thinking less emotionally:

My opinion is that the soul of BMW has been to build sport sedans or at the most GT cars in the true Grand Touring sense. Cars that you can rack up 100's of miles a day in at high speed, in all conditions, on all roads, in relative comfort (comfort meaning control and physical comfort).

Now, again in my opinion, the E46 tried too hard to be a hard edged sports car rather than a true sports sedan in the BMW tradition. Here the logic behind that argument:

Suspension: When I owned it in Chicago I felt the suspension was too harsh for the roads there. It was almost grit your teeth harsh going over the frost heaves. Now, granted the car was new and it mellowed overtime and was less of an issue out west. But, despite the harsh suspension, the handling, while great, is not comparable to the E92 with EDC- which is much smoother with better handling.

Acoustics: I also loved the inline six, yet why was there a rasp? This is again just to make the car acoustically 'rougher' or the driving experience more raw. Nobody can tell me the rasp was not intentional. BMW spends 1000's of hours working on the acoustics for all their cars.

Hood Bulge: Total marketing, like they wanted to put a V8 in it eventually. The bulge was even called a 'power dome'. Totally unnecessary.

Engine Redline: Now I know from my own seat of the pants after 5 years of driving it, the stock E46 M3 did not produce more power above 7800 RPM or so. Yet we had a redline at 8200 RPM. Why? The M roadster and coupe both had the same engine with a much lower redline. Mike Miller from Bimmer Magazine and Roundel has stated his opinion the redline is total marketing. I agree. Let's not even start talking about the two bottom end recalls done on mine.

Refinement: For what it is worth all my M3's have been pretty stripped down. My present car has no I-Drive, and my E36 and E46 had manual seats with no sunroof. So, I like comfort but not at the expense of weight. Unfortunately my present M3 has a sunroof, but I bought it used. So no, I don't value comfort over performance. I value refinement with performance. This is my final argument: The E46 M3 designers deliberately chose to make the car less refined to give it a more sporting appeal.

So those are my arguments. Could BMW have made a smoother more refined, 'raspless' M3 that was just as fast as the E46 M3, without the hood bulge and just as much power with a lower redline? Of course. And, to my argument, that would be more of what BMW is about from the 2002 tii to the present E92 M3.


And who cares about grandma? I don't let her near my car!!

(EDIT: Of course I don't mean make lower revving engines! High revving engines are also a BMW tradition- just set the redline based on Engineering, not Marketing).
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      03-18-2010, 02:40 AM   #56
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LOL@PPLs opinions.

Simply put, which would you drive daily, and which would you rather drive on the track?
E92 for daily and E46 for the track. That should speak for 'soul', rather than excuses of why BMW did this and that.
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      03-18-2010, 02:47 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I have also owned a E36 M3, E46 M3 and E92 M3. Sorry but what you're saying makes no sense.

Add 400 pounds, add more luxury options, make people get navigation so they can have M-dynamic mode, take away the spirit of the M3 (high revving I6) and give it a V8, reduce feedback from the road, cater more to the luxury market....

and you think that has MORE SOUL?!?! what are you talking about here?

The E46 M3 was "artificial"?!?! Really? I'll tell you what, I'm glad you started that sentence with "In my opinion" because thats all it really is, your opinion. And its safe to say your opinion is fairly biased because of how much you value comfort.

You consider "taking grandma to the store" in comfort a factor for soul? If you are talking about which car is a smoother everyday driver, thats one thing. But to say it has more soul because your granny feels comfy is... I dont even know.

Jesus. This is the reason the M3 is becoming more and more of a slave to the luxury market.

Thank you so much

You really made me when I read that.

I do love these discussions though. Very insightful to read everyone's opinion.
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      03-18-2010, 10:26 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FruitCake View Post
Simply put, which would you drive daily, and which would you rather drive on the track?
Whichever I own at the time for both activities.

Neither is a purpose built track weapon, they are meant as daily drivers, street machines par excellence - that will also be fun on a track. So if I owned an E46 that's what I would track and have balls of fun in the process. Heck, I'd even track the X3 if they'd let me...


But if I showed up at the track I could chose between them, then I'd pick the keys to the E90 every time. You really have to experience what it can do when driven full out...
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      03-18-2010, 10:55 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
Yes I did say in my opinion. Thank-you for stating yours. That's is what I love about our cars, we get so passionate about them!

But in my defense let me lay out my thinking less emotionally:

My opinion is that the soul of BMW has been to build sport sedans or at the most GT cars in the true Grand Touring sense. Cars that you can rack up 100's of miles a day in at high speed, in all conditions, on all roads, in relative comfort (comfort meaning control and physical comfort).

Now, again in my opinion, the E46 tried too hard to be a hard edged sports car rather than a true sports sedan in the BMW tradition. Here the logic behind that argument:

You are complaining that the E46 M3 Coupe should have tried to be less like a sports car and more like a sports sedan?

Suspension: When I owned it in Chicago I felt the suspension was too harsh for the roads there. It was almost grit your teeth harsh going over the frost heaves. Now, granted the car was new and it mellowed overtime and was less of an issue out west. But, despite the harsh suspension, the handling, while great, is not comparable to the E92 with EDC- which is much smoother with better handling.


Acoustics: I also loved the inline six, yet why was there a rasp? This is again just to make the car acoustically 'rougher' or the driving experience more raw. Nobody can tell me the rasp was not intentional. BMW spends 1000's of hours working on the acoustics for all their cars.

The rasp on the E46 is loved and hated amongst BMW fans. I personally loved that sound. Was the rasp engineered? probably. Was the raspy sound unique to the M3? yes.

Was the sound of the current E9X M3 engineered? Of course. Hows this different? Because it sounds more like a generic engine? Because its not as unique as the E46? Thats not why I like the M3.


Hood Bulge: Total marketing, like they wanted to put a V8 in it eventually. The bulge was even called a 'power dome'. Totally unnecessary.

Ok. Does your E9X have side gills? Absolutely non-functional side gills? Yes it does. You can say "yea but they have turn signals on them." They could have used just lights with no gills. Hows this different than the hood bulge?

Engine Redline: Now I know from my own seat of the pants after 5 years of driving it, the stock E46 M3 did not produce more power above 7800 RPM or so. Yet we had a redline at 8200 RPM. Why? The M roadster and coupe both had the same engine with a much lower redline. Mike Miller from Bimmer Magazine and Roundel has stated his opinion the redline is total marketing. I agree. Let's not even start talking about the two bottom end recalls done on mine.

So lets take away another M3 characteristic and bring down that redline. Did the redline evolve to become a more functional and useful band of power as the M3 grew? Yes it did. These things start somewhere and develop as they move forward.

Refinement: For what it is worth all my M3's have been pretty stripped down. My present car has no I-Drive, and my E36 and E46 had manual seats with no sunroof. So, I like comfort but not at the expense of weight. Unfortunately my present M3 has a sunroof, but I bought it used. So no, I don't value comfort over performance. I value refinement with performance. This is my final argument: The E46 M3 designers deliberately chose to make the car less refined to give it a more sporting appeal.

So those are my arguments. Could BMW have made a smoother more refined, 'raspless' M3 that was just as fast as the E46 M3, without the hood bulge and just as much power with a lower redline? Of course. And, to my argument, that would be more of what BMW is about from the 2002 tii to the present E92 M3.

Are you serious? Are we really saying the E46 M3 should have had lower, less raspy exhaust note, lower redline and no hood bulge???

This is where I give up talking about this. Theres nothing to say.


And who cares about grandma? I don't let her near my car!!

(EDIT: Of course I don't mean make lower revving engines! High revving engines are also a BMW tradition- just set the redline based on Engineering, not Marketing).

End of the day, you like to be comfortable, refined and fast. I like how the car makes me FEEL when I drive it opposed to it being refined. Mostly everything you mentioned as negatives I see as absolute positives.
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      03-18-2010, 12:19 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
End of the day, you like to be comfortable, refined and fast. I like how the car makes me FEEL when I drive it opposed to it being refined. Mostly everything you mentioned as negatives I see as absolute positives.
I never said these things are negatives. I'm just sayin these things are tuned in. My point is the car could have been made either way and have the same performance. If they were negatives for me I wouldn't have kept the car almost 6 years. I would have kept it if I could because it was a unique car with a unique color and few options. And yes most of the character of the current M3 is tuned to feel as it does as well.

We have a difference of opinion, yet we are serial M3 owners and both own the current model, so don't throw me completely under the bus just yet.

This was a question of soul so that is totally subjective. Surprise! you have a different answer to the same question.

Enjoy your ride(s)!
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      03-18-2010, 12:47 PM   #61
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Exclamation I just vote with my wallet

None of these things are sports cars.
Sporty, yes.
I test drove the e46 when it came out and elected to keep my current car and modify it.
I bought an e92.
Says it all, doesn't it?
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      03-18-2010, 01:28 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
I never said these things are negatives. I'm just sayin these things are tuned in. My point is the car could have been made either way and have the same performance. If they were negatives for me I wouldn't have kept the car almost 6 years. I would have kept it if I could because it was a unique car with a unique color and few options. And yes most of the character of the current M3 is tuned to feel as it does as well.

We have a difference of opinion, yet we are serial M3 owners and both own the current model, so don't throw me completely under the bus just yet.

This was a question of soul so that is totally subjective. Surprise! you have a different answer to the same question.

Enjoy your ride(s)!
Dude,

You are the reason the real enthusiasts are frustrated with BMW. You don't get it and you never will. That's okay.. but don't buy an M car and gripe about it's sporting quirks. I love them, and I wish the e9X had more of them. M cars SHOULD be raw to the point of almost being full bore sports cars yet retain enough lux so you never forget your in a BMW. It's a fantastic balance BMW has done for years. The e46 had that in spades. So does the 9X but in a different way. Raspy exhaust? Really?

You should be driving a Panamera.
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      03-18-2010, 11:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stunnerable View Post
Dude,

You are the reason the real enthusiasts are frustrated with BMW. You don't get it and you never will. That's okay.. but don't buy an M car and gripe about it's sporting quirks. I love them, and I wish the e9X had more of them. M cars SHOULD be raw to the point of almost being full bore sports cars yet retain enough lux so you never forget your in a BMW. It's a fantastic balance BMW has done for years. The e46 had that in spades. So does the 9X but in a different way. Raspy exhaust? Really?

You should be driving a Panamera.
Dude, you are way off base. Lighten up, let's keep this fun, not a personal attack.
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      03-19-2010, 08:27 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
Dude, you are way off base. Lighten up, let's keep this fun, not a personal attack.
Well I must have done a poor job explaining my point because this was not intended as a personal attack. If it was taken as such I apologize.

My point was simple; The M3 is a balanced car between a real deal high performance sports car and a luxury car. If it was any more one trait in either direction it wouldn't be so special. I get flamed by some of my friends, and they are just trying to rattle my cage but their points hold water. They tell me how BMW's are for poser, overpaid image whores. Now, obviously I know that's not the case for everyone, but many BMW owners I know buy these cars as a statement. They go to the dealer and figure out what car holds the most respect, prestige and sometimes highest price tag.. and buy it. Many times it being an M car. Then, they complain about them because of a loud exhaust, harsh ride etc. This eventually gets to BMW's top brass and they soften the cars up because.. well, they want to make money.

Now, guys like me live for driving. Every single time I step into a car.. doesn't have to be a sports car.. I am in love with apexing every turn, practicing smooth transitions, heel and toeing etc. Guys like me buy the M3 because it's enough of a sports car to excite the senses.. the drivers feedback is exceptional and yet it's still enough lux to be comfortable for day to day commutes. As a driving nut and borderline race car driver.. which I intend on doing once I retire.. I wouldn't mind a little more harshness. The e46 was more inline with that idea. I love the hood bulge and side gills and loud raspy exhaust. It's all part of the sensory excitement.

I realize I did take a shot at you with the Panamera comment. Perhaps that was immature. However, if you honestly feel the way you do about the M3, why don't you get something that's a little more lux focused but still performs. Leave the M cars to the right buyer. We'll talk BMW into making them harsher. Probably not but one can dream!

No hard feelings.
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Last edited by Stunnerable; 03-19-2010 at 12:52 PM.
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      03-19-2010, 04:43 PM   #65
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This is my first M-car. But I have driven a few others, including the M3 E46.

Personally, I like the combination of performance and refinement of the E9X M3. But I'm demographicallly past the 'I want the M3 to be as hard core as possible" stage. I drive on country roads a fair but and doing about 25k / miles a year I do want a modicum of comfort in my GT. The e46 was more overtly sporting & I do subscribe to the view than in its era it was a more significant car, relatively, than the E9x M3 (which has a peer group now crowded w/ C61, Rs4, IS-F and soon the RS5).

I still wish BMW would offer a CS version for the make-it-hard-core set.

I suspect, given the Efficient Dynamics focus by BMW mgmt that the next M3 will be lighter & as well as more economical. Big reason, surely, for going back to an I6/V6 + FI & DI.
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      03-19-2010, 05:42 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft View Post
If you can keep both cars, do it! I've had my E46 for 7 years now and when my E92 gets delivered I won't be getting rid of my E46. It's like an old g/f you want to keep on the side while in another relationship lol. I just can't part with her. The E46 will become my winter beater and I'll probably drop an AA S/C in it since it's now outta warranty and won't be my daily driver.
It's always nice having a couple of different cars with unique characteristics to drive to keep from becoming bored of one.
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