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      03-15-2010, 05:39 PM   #23
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E46 -> E92 -> E46 -> E92 - Z4mc

Gentleman

I think you've all made very valid and honest comments. For me personally, I struggled all along with the comfort of the E92. I always missed that raw edge the E46 had. I would concede though, that the E92 is a better all round car for daily use. However, after going through the sequence of cars in the title, I think I'm happiest overall the the 4MC. Reason being, I get the rawness of the straight six, the lightness of the 4MC, plus some of the more modern additions the 4MC also has over th E46 M3. My only real criticisms of the Z are that it does try to go sideways much more readily than either M3 (not sure if its really a criticism, but it is harder to drive well than either M3 on the limit) and the bluetooth sucks.





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      03-15-2010, 06:19 PM   #24
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If you can keep both cars, do it! I've had my E46 for 7 years now and when my E92 gets delivered I won't be getting rid of my E46. It's like an old g/f you want to keep on the side while in another relationship lol. I just can't part with her. The E46 will become my winter beater and I'll probably drop an AA S/C in it since it's now outta warranty and won't be my daily driver.
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      03-15-2010, 06:53 PM   #25
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I miss the steering weight of the E46, but not the understeer. I could thrash my E46 without losing my license - and car - but then laws and enforcement have changed in the past few years. The basic problem with my E92 DCT, as with any current near-supercar, is that its dynamic capabilities are far too high to exploit on public roads. This is exacerbated in the case of the E9x by an extreme linearity which doesn't quite translate into the same fun as an E46.
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      03-15-2010, 08:07 PM   #26
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Thanks for all the great feedback everyone!
You really helped me form my decision, and have really got me thinking.
As I do live in Los Angeles, and this car will in fact be my daily driver, I think I am going to go with an e90 M3 if I find the right one for the right price.
You are all the best!

Cheers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
Handling, as far as I can tell for the little time I've had my E92 M3 is better than the E46 M3. The V8 engine is obviously much better -- power, torque (even better down low despite what some have said) and sound -- than the I6. Both are great engines though.

The E92 M3 is more comfortable and a bit quieter inside. If you like a more "raw" car the E46 M3 is it. But you could get even more of that (if that's what you're going for) with the Z4M coupe.

The new M3 is better is almost every way. It does not get as good gas mileage, but it's not that much worse. The steering on the new car is much lighter and does not have as much feel as the E46 M3 but you don't really notice it unless you're in a tight turn. I don't have the M button and so don't have the option of the harder steering so I can't comment on that. The E92 is a heavier car but you really don't feel it as much. I also have to say that I don't have DCT (40 some odd pounds I believe), nav, and I have the CF roof so my M3 is probably among the lighter (non-modded) new M3s.

I don't have the DCT but I've driven it a few times on test drives. I had the SMG in my E46 M3 and I can tell you there is no comparison -- the DCT is way better than SMG. That is, except when running all out, the SMG shifts were brilliant. The DCT doesn't give the same feel but it is still much faster and smoother shifting. It's just that the hard SMG shift at redline was special.

All in all, yes, the new M3 has soul. The two cars are different, but each in their own way are very special cars and I feel very lucky to be able to have driven both.

Cheers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I had 3 E46 M3s with SMG and much as I loved them all, I wouldn't go back to one from my E92 M3 DCT, its the better car in almost every respect...with more front end grip, better turn in, faster steering, more brutal acceleration, more grip overall, better brakes, better ride, more stable at high speed on uneven roads, quieter when cruising...plus other stuff.
On the down side the E9x range M3 uses more fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
The E92 M3 is a better car on paper. The E46 M3 (i had a competition model) has more M3 soul and sheer driving pleasure. Its more raw than the E92. Its lighter, its got the legendary inline-6 which is a much more special engine than the new V8.

Theres tons of cars out there with V8s that pump out crazy power. The E46 M3 was special because of its I6.

With that said, you will not be disappointed with a E92.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
Absolutely.

I have both. They are weekend toys. The E46 M3 feels a lot more special and an "occasion" to drive with its frenetic personality. The S54B32 inline-6 engine is a lot more eager to rev and feels more torquey on the low end. However, being 10 years old, it is rougher, louder, slower, and has less grip. The E90 is a good daily driver that's fast and smooth. It also has a quicker steering ratio and a lot of cool features like EDC, Bluetooth, HD radio, great Enhanced Premium audio (much better than the E46 base or HK), and a decent navigation system.

Now does the E46 have more soul... yes. But it has less balance in terms of handling; the E9x's wider front tires and superior front-end geometry reduce the amount of understeer at corner entry compared to the E46 M3.

If you want a daily driver, get the E90. If you want a weekend car, get the E46.
Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
To the OP, not a stupid question at all. I was very torn when I got my E90 and still have thoughts of getting an E46 again. I would sum it up like this: E46 has more spirit, finesse, and a more raw feel. E90 is overall more capable but has more of a brute force feel (a little more numb than the feedback you get in an E46.) Each is an extraordinary car, I sometimes look back on my E46 as the perfect blend of handling, power, steering feel, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calintexas View Post
I'm going to agree with others and say that my E90 is a much better daily driver than the E46. The EDC really works. The comfort setting is almost supple. Your passengers won't be doing the head jerk (SMG shift phenomena that you can mitigate but not completely control). I think the E46 is a bit better felling in the twisties because of less weight and a more connected (maybe direct) feel at the expense of substantial low speed suspension harshness. One thing about the SMG (especially when you are pushing it) is that you can tell there is a manual transmission and a regular clutch that you can control fairly directly with the throttle and the shift paddles. The DCT is much more like a true automatic in driving feel. Engagement of the wet clutch from start is very vague. It takes some getting used to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxe92xx View Post
the only negative is the weight....everthing is better compared to an E46, 6MT about the same clunkyness nothing to frown upon though
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack28 View Post
Very nice feedback guys... as a person coming from an e46 M3 and going to a e92 M3, its nice reading the feedback and experience from other E46 M3 owners to new E92 M3 owners like myself with the same situation!!! Very good info, especially as I'm waiting for my e92 M3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppin Fresh View Post
The only thing I miss is the steering feel on the E46 M3. The E92's steering feels softer but somehow makes me feel more confident when handling the curves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I had SMG on the E46 so I honestly have no idea how it compares to my current 6MT. I have driven a E46 6MT a few times and if I remember right it felt a lil more brute compared to the softer E92 6MT.

Ive driven a E92 DCT a few times as well and that felt sooo much smoother in shifting than SMG, almost too smooth. I know the DCT M3 is faster than the 6MT but i swear the 6MT FEELS faster. The DCT shifts are so effortless its like a continuous glide. Whereas the SMG felt JUST like a stick does; disengaging clutch, pulling out of gear, putting back in and engaging... but really fast!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
When the SMG was working at its best (my three SMG M3s were in and out of the shop for new clutches or clutch teach-ins on a regular basis) it was a brilliant system, feeling like a manual with the changes being quite controllable by the throttle pedal. At its worst its was a clunky system in traffic with slurred (clutch eating) changes at high speed when the system was out of adjustment or the clutch was starting to wear (@ ~15k miles).
OTOH the DCT is smooth and consistent and totally at home in traffic or blasting down country roads, blatting down the gears when hard on the brakes into a tight corner. For the money its the closest thing you can buy to racing car thats also good as a daily driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CATCH_M3 View Post
I came from an E46 M3 -> Z4M Coupe -> E92 M3 in about a 1.5-2 year period so I still have all 3 somewhat fresh in my mind. The E46 M3 & Z4M felt a bit similar. I wrote a comparison for the Z4M -> E92 M3. So I'll quote it here.. Having now owned the E92 M3 for 2-3 months, I can safely say if I could only own one of those 3 I would pick the E92 M3. Maybe because I have a bit more experience now (E46 M3 was my first manual car, and I was 19 when I bought it), this is the first car I have had the desire to really get into modding for. Perhaps that is because I now have the experience to know exactly how I want my car to feel, sound, look, etc. Maybe because I love it a bit more than the others?

Anyway here is the comparison:



Two things that stick out in my mind 2 months after are this:

-I got used to the servotronic. I like it now. (At least in sport setting; since I never drive it without.)
-I had the Z4M and E92 M3 simultaneously for a while. Eventually I didn't drive the Z4M as much; I noticed when I went back into it; it was definitely noticeably lighter.. However it handled a little bit more 'weirdly', not as planted. So it was a little harder to drive.
-When I switched back to the Z4M I noticed I started hitting the rev-limiter in 2nd gear ALOT. 7800 vs. 8400 RPM actually made a very noticeable difference when I was driving hard.

Hope this helps!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
The E92 is definitely a nice and comfortable car to drive. But I miss owning and driving the E46 for its raw power. Everytime I see a E46 my heart just sinks. It will remain a timeless design ... a beautiful car overall. I concur with 3XTR3M3. I always pushed the E46 to its limits (or my limits) but I find it very hard to do so with the E92. Probably I am seven years older. I just don't feel the E92 has the same stability the E46 had especially at high speed. I feel the E92 has more body roll.
To feel the same soul and pleasure as the E46 you need to have the E92 in sports mode in every setting. Given the undulations and the pot holes we have in Australia it is a tough as to have the suspension on "sports" setting for a daily driver. This is my humble opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I have to agree with everyone who's posted here. I loved the feel of my e46. It was more of "my" car. The e90 is a superior car in every measureable way, but lacks the soul of the e46. For me, only able to keep one car, the e90 is a much better choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I will disagree with some of the posters here, but if you are trying to get as many opinions as possible, here is mine:
- The E46 steering doesn't have more feel. The E90 is more boosted at low speeds but firms up very nice around 50-60mph which is very good, especially at speeds over 100 mph where the quick steering ration could have made the car very nervous/jumpy.
- The E46 engine did not feel as good around redline - felt harsher, as if it were straining a little. By comparison, the E90 seems to want to rip way past, its appetite for revs is much keener. I've always thought people who bumped up the rev limit on the E46 were crazy, but on the E90 I'd be inclined.
- The E46's performance envelope is much more accessible - I jumped in it and felt very comfortable throwing it around. The E90's limits are so high, it can get a little scary when you're really pushing. And the comparative lack of understeer means it feels very good, but you'd better be on your toes.

Did I like the E46? Hell yeah! I'm half thinking of getting a nice used example to go with a more extreme weekend toy (Caterham, Elise etc.). But as a daily driver / occasional trackday, the E90 beats the pants off the E46.

All in my opinion. I just drove my friend's E46 a few days ago, then jumped straight into my car - so the impressions are very fresh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
Handling, as far as I can tell for the little time I've had my E92 M3 is better than the E46 M3. The V8 engine is obviously much better -- power, torque (even better down low despite what some have said) and sound -- than the I6. Both are great engines though.

The E92 M3 is more comfortable and a bit quieter inside. If you like a more "raw" car the E46 M3 is it. But you could get even more of that (if that's what you're going for) with the Z4M coupe.

The new M3 is better is almost every way. It does not get as good gas mileage, but it's not that much worse. The steering on the new car is much lighter and does not have as much feel as the E46 M3 but you don't really notice it unless you're in a tight turn. I don't have the M button and so don't have the option of the harder steering so I can't comment on that. The E92 is a heavier car but you really don't feel it as much. I also have to say that I don't have DCT (40 some odd pounds I believe), nav, and I have the CF roof so my M3 is probably among the lighter (non-modded) new M3s.

I don't have the DCT but I've driven it a few times on test drives. I had the SMG in my E46 M3 and I can tell you there is no comparison -- the DCT is way better than SMG. That is, except when running all out, the SMG shifts were brilliant. The DCT doesn't give the same feel but it is still much faster and smoother shifting. It's just that the hard SMG shift at redline was special.

All in all, yes, the new M3 has soul. The two cars are different, but each in their own way are very special cars and I feel very lucky to be able to have driven both.

Cheers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I had 3 E46 M3s with SMG and much as I loved them all, I wouldn't go back to one from my E92 M3 DCT, its the better car in almost every respect...with more front end grip, better turn in, faster steering, more brutal acceleration, more grip overall, better brakes, better ride, more stable at high speed on uneven roads, quieter when cruising...plus other stuff.
On the down side the E9x range M3 uses more fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
The E92 M3 is a better car on paper. The E46 M3 (i had a competition model) has more M3 soul and sheer driving pleasure. Its more raw than the E92. Its lighter, its got the legendary inline-6 which is a much more special engine than the new V8.

Theres tons of cars out there with V8s that pump out crazy power. The E46 M3 was special because of its I6.

With that said, you will not be disappointed with a E92.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
Absolutely.

I have both. They are weekend toys. The E46 M3 feels a lot more special and an "occasion" to drive with its frenetic personality. The S54B32 inline-6 engine is a lot more eager to rev and feels more torquey on the low end. However, being 10 years old, it is rougher, louder, slower, and has less grip. The E90 is a good daily driver that's fast and smooth. It also has a quicker steering ratio and a lot of cool features like EDC, Bluetooth, HD radio, great Enhanced Premium audio (much better than the E46 base or HK), and a decent navigation system.

Now does the E46 have more soul... yes. But it has less balance in terms of handling; the E9x's wider front tires and superior front-end geometry reduce the amount of understeer at corner entry compared to the E46 M3.

If you want a daily driver, get the E90. If you want a weekend car, get the E46.
Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
To the OP, not a stupid question at all. I was very torn when I got my E90 and still have thoughts of getting an E46 again. I would sum it up like this: E46 has more spirit, finesse, and a more raw feel. E90 is overall more capable but has more of a brute force feel (a little more numb than the feedback you get in an E46.) Each is an extraordinary car, I sometimes look back on my E46 as the perfect blend of handling, power, steering feel, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calintexas View Post
I'm going to agree with others and say that my E90 is a much better daily driver than the E46. The EDC really works. The comfort setting is almost supple. Your passengers won't be doing the head jerk (SMG shift phenomena that you can mitigate but not completely control). I think the E46 is a bit better felling in the twisties because of less weight and a more connected (maybe direct) feel at the expense of substantial low speed suspension harshness. One thing about the SMG (especially when you are pushing it) is that you can tell there is a manual transmission and a regular clutch that you can control fairly directly with the throttle and the shift paddles. The DCT is much more like a true automatic in driving feel. Engagement of the wet clutch from start is very vague. It takes some getting used to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxe92xx View Post
the only negative is the weight....everthing is better compared to an E46, 6MT about the same clunkyness nothing to frown upon though
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack28 View Post
Very nice feedback guys... as a person coming from an e46 M3 and going to a e92 M3, its nice reading the feedback and experience from other E46 M3 owners to new E92 M3 owners like myself with the same situation!!! Very good info, especially as I'm waiting for my e92 M3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppin Fresh View Post
The only thing I miss is the steering feel on the E46 M3. The E92's steering feels softer but somehow makes me feel more confident when handling the curves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I had SMG on the E46 so I honestly have no idea how it compares to my current 6MT. I have driven a E46 6MT a few times and if I remember right it felt a lil more brute compared to the softer E92 6MT.

Ive driven a E92 DCT a few times as well and that felt sooo much smoother in shifting than SMG, almost too smooth. I know the DCT M3 is faster than the 6MT but i swear the 6MT FEELS faster. The DCT shifts are so effortless its like a continuous glide. Whereas the SMG felt JUST like a stick does; disengaging clutch, pulling out of gear, putting back in and engaging... but really fast!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
When the SMG was working at its best (my three SMG M3s were in and out of the shop for new clutches or clutch teach-ins on a regular basis) it was a brilliant system, feeling like a manual with the changes being quite controllable by the throttle pedal. At its worst its was a clunky system in traffic with slurred (clutch eating) changes at high speed when the system was out of adjustment or the clutch was starting to wear (@ ~15k miles).
OTOH the DCT is smooth and consistent and totally at home in traffic or blasting down country roads, blatting down the gears when hard on the brakes into a tight corner. For the money its the closest thing you can buy to racing car thats also good as a daily driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CATCH_M3 View Post
I came from an E46 M3 -> Z4M Coupe -> E92 M3 in about a 1.5-2 year period so I still have all 3 somewhat fresh in my mind. The E46 M3 & Z4M felt a bit similar. I wrote a comparison for the Z4M -> E92 M3. So I'll quote it here.. Having now owned the E92 M3 for 2-3 months, I can safely say if I could only own one of those 3 I would pick the E92 M3. Maybe because I have a bit more experience now (E46 M3 was my first manual car, and I was 19 when I bought it), this is the first car I have had the desire to really get into modding for. Perhaps that is because I now have the experience to know exactly how I want my car to feel, sound, look, etc. Maybe because I love it a bit more than the others?

Anyway here is the comparison:



Two things that stick out in my mind 2 months after are this:

-I got used to the servotronic. I like it now. (At least in sport setting; since I never drive it without.)
-I had the Z4M and E92 M3 simultaneously for a while. Eventually I didn't drive the Z4M as much; I noticed when I went back into it; it was definitely noticeably lighter.. However it handled a little bit more 'weirdly', not as planted. So it was a little harder to drive.
-When I switched back to the Z4M I noticed I started hitting the rev-limiter in 2nd gear ALOT. 7800 vs. 8400 RPM actually made a very noticeable difference when I was driving hard.

Hope this helps!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
The E92 is definitely a nice and comfortable car to drive. But I miss owning and driving the E46 for its raw power. Everytime I see a E46 my heart just sinks. It will remain a timeless design ... a beautiful car overall. I concur with 3XTR3M3. I always pushed the E46 to its limits (or my limits) but I find it very hard to do so with the E92. Probably I am seven years older. I just don't feel the E92 has the same stability the E46 had especially at high speed. I feel the E92 has more body roll.
To feel the same soul and pleasure as the E46 you need to have the E92 in sports mode in every setting. Given the undulations and the pot holes we have in Australia it is a tough as to have the suspension on "sports" setting for a daily driver. This is my humble opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I have to agree with everyone who's posted here. I loved the feel of my e46. It was more of "my" car. The e90 is a superior car in every measureable way, but lacks the soul of the e46. For me, only able to keep one car, the e90 is a much better choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
I will disagree with some of the posters here, but if you are trying to get as many opinions as possible, here is mine:
- The E46 steering doesn't have more feel. The E90 is more boosted at low speeds but firms up very nice around 50-60mph which is very good, especially at speeds over 100 mph where the quick steering ration could have made the car very nervous/jumpy.
- The E46 engine did not feel as good around redline - felt harsher, as if it were straining a little. By comparison, the E90 seems to want to rip way past, its appetite for revs is much keener. I've always thought people who bumped up the rev limit on the E46 were crazy, but on the E90 I'd be inclined.
- The E46's performance envelope is much more accessible - I jumped in it and felt very comfortable throwing it around. The E90's limits are so high, it can get a little scary when you're really pushing. And the comparative lack of understeer means it feels very good, but you'd better be on your toes.

Did I like the E46? Hell yeah! I'm half thinking of getting a nice used example to go with a more extreme weekend toy (Caterham, Elise etc.). But as a daily driver / occasional trackday, the E90 beats the pants off the E46.

All in my opinion. I just drove my friend's E46 a few days ago, then jumped straight into my car - so the impressions are very fresh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealDC View Post
Gentleman

I think you've all made very valid and honest comments. For me personally, I struggled all along with the comfort of the E92. I always missed that raw edge the E46 had. I would concede though, that the E92 is a better all round car for daily use. However, after going through the sequence of cars in the title, I think I'm happiest overall the the 4MC. Reason being, I get the rawness of the straight six, the lightness of the 4MC, plus some of the more modern additions the 4MC also has over th E46 M3. My only real criticisms of the Z are that it does try to go sideways much more readily than either M3 (not sure if its really a criticism, but it is harder to drive well than either M3 on the limit) and the bluetooth sucks.





DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft View Post
If you can keep both cars, do it! I've had my E46 for 7 years now and when my E92 gets delivered I won't be getting rid of my E46. It's like an old g/f you want to keep on the side while in another relationship lol. I just can't part with her. The E46 will become my winter beater and I'll probably drop an AA S/C in it since it's now outta warranty and won't be my daily driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
I miss the steering weight of the E46, but not the understeer. I could thrash my E46 without losing my license - and car - but then laws and enforcement have changed in the past few years. The basic problem with my E92 DCT, as with any current near-supercar, is that its dynamic capabilities are far too high to exploit on public roads. This is exacerbated in the case of the E9x by an extreme linearity which doesn't quite translate into the same fun as an E46.
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      03-15-2010, 08:16 PM   #27
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this man sure can multiquote!
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      03-15-2010, 08:27 PM   #28
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Good to see I'm not crazy, I agree with most everyone posting after a year with the E90. It is superior in every measurable way, but it's lacking soul. The S54 is a special motor, chainsaw on steroids...still remember the hair on the back of my neck standing up. You can barely hear the S65, total travesty.

The E90 is better at the track than I expected, but not as fun as my old riced out E46 (nearly as fast though).
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      03-15-2010, 09:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by CATCH_M3 View Post
this man sure can multiquote!
I just found out how to do it the other day and have been craving to do so ever since!
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      03-16-2010, 12:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
Good to see I'm not crazy, I agree with most everyone posting after a year with the E90. It is superior in every measurable way, but it's lacking soul. The S54 is a special motor, chainsaw on steroids...still remember the hair on the back of my neck standing up. You can barely hear the S65, total travesty.

The E90 is better at the track than I expected, but not as fun as my old riced out E46 (nearly as fast though).
I'm going through the same... keep my 05 e46 comp coupe or get a 2011 e90 (I'm now thinking e92... I just don't like the looks of the sedan nearly as much). I like the raw feel of the e46, but it would be nice to have the adjustable suspension and to be able to soften it up a bit on bumpy freeways. I also love my SMG and I've read a few posts saying the DCT is almost too smooth. Not sure I'd like that, I still want it to feel like a manual, not an automatic (I've never had mine out of S5 mode).

A question on the engine noise... is the engine/exhaust really quieter, or is there just more sound insulation in the e9x cabins? I'm considering an Eisenmann sport exhaust to keep the car from being too "refined". Of course, having not driven one, nor hearing an Eisenmann sport, I have no idea if I'd like it, or if I'd be fine with the stock exhaust. I'll likely do some test drives over the next month or so, or maybe rent one ($$$ to rent one though, but at least I'd be able to wring it out a bit, unlike the 3 min test drives you get at the dealers).

Decisions, decisions...

-David
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      03-16-2010, 01:23 AM   #31
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OK, let's talk about which has more soul, the E46 or the E92? Having owned both, it is no question the E92. Here's my humble opinion about the soul of both-

E46- IMHO, the E46 edginess is all artificial- it exists because the previous M3, the E36 (which I also owned) was deemed too 'soft' and not 'raw' enough by the critics. Next thing you know, the E46 comes out with an overly stiff suspension, exhaust 'rasp' and an SMG transmission that didn't just shift quickly, it literally speed shifts and rip bangs the entire drivetrain. Add unusual bulges (some purely cosmetic) and TADA- everyone starts making comparisons to the E30 M3 (sorry, but no). In reality, it was never meant for the track, besides brakes not up to the task, many other components needed beefing up to make it withstand the pressure of track driving- (not to mention the dreaded sub-floor failures). And finally, can we say that the rev limit was the ultimate marketing decision? (sorry, but in hindsight I think I agree with Mike Miller on this one).

OK, I loved my E46 as much as my E36, the engine at redline is a great treat (and yes 8K plus is cool vs. 7900 RPM)- but, much of the edginess is not real and therefore while a 'drama queen' her soul is staring at herself in the mirror.

Now, the E92 IMHO, is much more in keeping with the BMW tradition of a practical sports SEDAN, that can keep up with most anything on or off the track, but is happy to take you and Grandma to the store without wrinkling her dress. Yes, the brakes are still not up to full on track days, but I don't feel like anything is as artificial as before. I don't have an exhaust that says 'rasp' push harder, or a suspension that lets me feel every expansion joint in like a go kart. No, I drive smoothly and quietly without drama- I can hear the motor, but it's not in my face. Then when I get on it, it revs freely past 8K because this is not about marketing, this is about power, and with this V8 we (the engineers) at BMW have made the power live at peak RPM's where it just feels and sounds... soulfully awesome. And the suspension, can become tight, and tenacious without massive understeer because that is that fast way around a track and a good mountain road- liability be damned.

This is the Soul of BMW past and present...
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      03-16-2010, 01:42 AM   #32
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lol @ multi-quote


great thread, thanks for sharing your experiences
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      03-16-2010, 03:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
OK, let's talk about which has more soul, the E46 or the E92? Having owned both, it is no question the E92. Here's my humble opinion about the soul of both-

E46- IMHO, the E46 edginess is all artificial- it exists because the previous M3, the E36 (which I also owned) was deemed too 'soft' and not 'raw' enough by the critics. Next thing you know, the E46 comes out with an overly stiff suspension, exhaust 'rasp' and an SMG transmission that didn't just shift quickly, it literally speed shifts and rip bangs the entire drivetrain. Add unusual bulges (some purely cosmetic) and TADA- everyone starts making comparisons to the E30 M3 (sorry, but no). In reality, it was never meant for the track, besides brakes not up to the task, many other components needed beefing up to make it withstand the pressure of track driving- (not to mention the dreaded sub-floor failures). And finally, can we say that the rev limit was the ultimate marketing decision? (sorry, but in hindsight I think I agree with Mike Miller on this one).

OK, I loved my E46 as much as my E36, the engine at redline is a great treat (and yes 8K plus is cool vs. 7900 RPM)- but, much of the edginess is not real and therefore while a 'drama queen' her soul is staring at herself in the mirror.

Now, the E92 IMHO, is much more in keeping with the BMW tradition of a practical sports SEDAN, that can keep up with most anything on or off the track, but is happy to take you and Grandma to the store without wrinkling her dress. Yes, the brakes are still not up to full on track days, but I don't feel like anything is as artificial as before. I don't have an exhaust that says 'rasp' push harder, or a suspension that lets me feel every expansion joint in like a go kart. No, I drive smoothly and quietly without drama- I can hear the motor, but it's not in my face. Then when I get on it, it revs freely past 8K because this is not about marketing, this is about power, and with this V8 we (the engineers) at BMW have made the power live at peak RPM's where it just feels and sounds... soulfully awesome. And the suspension, can become tight, and tenacious without massive understeer because that is that fast way around a track and a good mountain road- liability be damned.

This is the Soul of BMW past and present...
I completely agree.
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      03-16-2010, 04:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
OK, let's talk about which has more soul, the E46 or the E92? Having owned both, it is no question the E92. Here's my humble opinion about the soul of both-

E46- IMHO, the E46 edginess is all artificial- it exists because the previous M3, the E36 (which I also owned) was deemed too 'soft' and not 'raw' enough by the critics. Next thing you know, the E46 comes out with an overly stiff suspension, exhaust 'rasp' and an SMG transmission that didn't just shift quickly, it literally speed shifts and rip bangs the entire drivetrain. Add unusual bulges (some purely cosmetic) and TADA- everyone starts making comparisons to the E30 M3 (sorry, but no). In reality, it was never meant for the track, besides brakes not up to the task, many other components needed beefing up to make it withstand the pressure of track driving- (not to mention the dreaded sub-floor failures). And finally, can we say that the rev limit was the ultimate marketing decision? (sorry, but in hindsight I think I agree with Mike Miller on this one).

OK, I loved my E46 as much as my E36, the engine at redline is a great treat (and yes 8K plus is cool vs. 7900 RPM)- but, much of the edginess is not real and therefore while a 'drama queen' her soul is staring at herself in the mirror.

Now, the E92 IMHO, is much more in keeping with the BMW tradition of a practical sports SEDAN, that can keep up with most anything on or off the track, but is happy to take you and Grandma to the store without wrinkling her dress. Yes, the brakes are still not up to full on track days, but I don't feel like anything is as artificial as before. I don't have an exhaust that says 'rasp' push harder, or a suspension that lets me feel every expansion joint in like a go kart. No, I drive smoothly and quietly without drama- I can hear the motor, but it's not in my face. Then when I get on it, it revs freely past 8K because this is not about marketing, this is about power, and with this V8 we (the engineers) at BMW have made the power live at peak RPM's where it just feels and sounds... soulfully awesome. And the suspension, can become tight, and tenacious without massive understeer because that is that fast way around a track and a good mountain road- liability be damned.

This is the Soul of BMW past and present...
That explanation sounds great and all, but at the end of the day, the E92 still lacks the tactile feel of the E46 (the steering especially). The E46 is more frenetic and eager to go as opposed to the E9x's purposeful but somewhat relaxed character (kind of how an E39 M5 is but not quite as heavy). The E9x is fast and superior in most/all objective measures, but it doesn't have the same character... not by a long shot. Why else would I keep mine?

If I could only pick one, I think I'd pick the E46.
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      03-16-2010, 05:18 AM   #35
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loved my E46 before it got hit, i loved the way the whole car felt on the road and on the track. it felt like it was a go-kart. The E92 feels like a boat compared to my E46, but then my E92 is bone stock and my E46 had KWs, Brembos, Volks, semi-slicks, the works.
I do enjoy the E92 tho, Im a practical user and I enjoy the comforts and techno gadgets the E92 provide.
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      03-16-2010, 09:14 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
OK, let's talk about which has more soul, the E46 or the E92? Having owned both, it is no question the E92. Here's my humble opinion about the soul of both-

E46- IMHO, the E46 edginess is all artificial- it exists because the previous M3, the E36 (which I also owned) was deemed too 'soft' and not 'raw' enough by the critics. Next thing you know, the E46 comes out with an overly stiff suspension, exhaust 'rasp' and an SMG transmission that didn't just shift quickly, it literally speed shifts and rip bangs the entire drivetrain. Add unusual bulges (some purely cosmetic) and TADA- everyone starts making comparisons to the E30 M3 (sorry, but no). In reality, it was never meant for the track, besides brakes not up to the task, many other components needed beefing up to make it withstand the pressure of track driving- (not to mention the dreaded sub-floor failures). And finally, can we say that the rev limit was the ultimate marketing decision? (sorry, but in hindsight I think I agree with Mike Miller on this one).

OK, I loved my E46 as much as my E36, the engine at redline is a great treat (and yes 8K plus is cool vs. 7900 RPM)- but, much of the edginess is not real and therefore while a 'drama queen' her soul is staring at herself in the mirror.

Now, the E92 IMHO, is much more in keeping with the BMW tradition of a practical sports SEDAN, that can keep up with most anything on or off the track, but is happy to take you and Grandma to the store without wrinkling her dress. Yes, the brakes are still not up to full on track days, but I don't feel like anything is as artificial as before. I don't have an exhaust that says 'rasp' push harder, or a suspension that lets me feel every expansion joint in like a go kart. No, I drive smoothly and quietly without drama- I can hear the motor, but it's not in my face. Then when I get on it, it revs freely past 8K because this is not about marketing, this is about power, and with this V8 we (the engineers) at BMW have made the power live at peak RPM's where it just feels and sounds... soulfully awesome. And the suspension, can become tight, and tenacious without massive understeer because that is that fast way around a track and a good mountain road- liability be damned.

This is the Soul of BMW past and present...

Thank you so much

You really made me when I read that.
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      03-17-2010, 01:08 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperlativE90 View Post

Thank you so much

You really made me when I read that.
You're welcome.

Here's the old gal:
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      03-17-2010, 01:33 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
To the OP, not a stupid question at all. I was very torn when I got my E90 and still have thoughts of getting an E46 again. I would sum it up like this: E46 has more spirit, finesse, and a more raw feel. E90 is overall more capable but has more of a brute force feel (a little more numb than the feedback you get in an E46.) Each is an extraordinary car, I sometimes look back on my E46 as the perfect blend of handling, power, steering feel, etc.
+1000

I miss the tight steering gear my comp package e46 m3 had and Im still thinking of buying another one in the future.
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      03-17-2010, 07:58 AM   #39
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bmw states the 2011 m3 with competition package is going to be the best handling car bmw has ever built period!! that should answer your question!!
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      03-17-2010, 09:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montoya View Post
OK, let's talk about which has more soul, the E46 or the E92? Having owned both, it is no question the E92. Here's my humble opinion about the soul of both-

E46- IMHO, the E46 edginess is all artificial- it exists because the previous M3, the E36 (which I also owned) was deemed too 'soft' and not 'raw' enough by the critics. Next thing you know, the E46 comes out with an overly stiff suspension, exhaust 'rasp' and an SMG transmission that didn't just shift quickly, it literally speed shifts and rip bangs the entire drivetrain. Add unusual bulges (some purely cosmetic) and TADA- everyone starts making comparisons to the E30 M3 (sorry, but no). In reality, it was never meant for the track, besides brakes not up to the task, many other components needed beefing up to make it withstand the pressure of track driving- (not to mention the dreaded sub-floor failures). And finally, can we say that the rev limit was the ultimate marketing decision? (sorry, but in hindsight I think I agree with Mike Miller on this one).

OK, I loved my E46 as much as my E36, the engine at redline is a great treat (and yes 8K plus is cool vs. 7900 RPM)- but, much of the edginess is not real and therefore while a 'drama queen' her soul is staring at herself in the mirror.

Now, the E92 IMHO, is much more in keeping with the BMW tradition of a practical sports SEDAN, that can keep up with most anything on or off the track, but is happy to take you and Grandma to the store without wrinkling her dress. Yes, the brakes are still not up to full on track days, but I don't feel like anything is as artificial as before. I don't have an exhaust that says 'rasp' push harder, or a suspension that lets me feel every expansion joint in like a go kart. No, I drive smoothly and quietly without drama- I can hear the motor, but it's not in my face. Then when I get on it, it revs freely past 8K because this is not about marketing, this is about power, and with this V8 we (the engineers) at BMW have made the power live at peak RPM's where it just feels and sounds... soulfully awesome. And the suspension, can become tight, and tenacious without massive understeer because that is that fast way around a track and a good mountain road- liability be damned.

This is the Soul of BMW past and present...
I have also owned a E36 M3, E46 M3 and E92 M3. Sorry but what you're saying makes no sense.

Add 400 pounds, add more luxury options, make people get navigation so they can have M-dynamic mode, take away the spirit of the M3 (high revving I6) and give it a V8, reduce feedback from the road, cater more to the luxury market....

and you think that has MORE SOUL?!?! what are you talking about here?

The E46 M3 was "artificial"?!?! Really? I'll tell you what, I'm glad you started that sentence with "In my opinion" because thats all it really is, your opinion. And its safe to say your opinion is fairly biased because of how much you value comfort.

You consider "taking grandma to the store" in comfort a factor for soul? If you are talking about which car is a smoother everyday driver, thats one thing. But to say it has more soul because your granny feels comfy is... I dont even know.

Jesus. This is the reason the M3 is becoming more and more of a slave to the luxury market.
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      03-17-2010, 09:17 AM   #41
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      03-17-2010, 09:21 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I have also owned a E36 M3, E46 M3 and E92 M3. Sorry but what you're saying makes no sense.

Add 400 pounds, add more luxury options, make people get navigation so they can have M-dynamic mode, take away the spirit of the M3 (high revving I6) and give it a V8, reduce feedback from the road, cater more to the luxury market....
Sorry, but what you're saying doesn't make much sense either.

The base spec E92 weighs 3600 lbs, a 200 lbs increase over the E46, which was a 250lbs increase over the E36, which was a 300lbs increase over the E30. Meaning, it's the smallest gross increase of weight of any generation, and the smallest one by far if you look percentage-wise.
The spirit of the original M3 - the E30 - was of an inline 4, not 6.
The spirit of the US E36 M3 was of a torquey and not very high revving inline 6.
Forget Navigation and M dynamic mode, that's for sissies. BMW doesn't "make" you do anything at all, it's all in your head.

And every generation M3 - every single one of them - has been pretty much a 3 series loaded up to the gills with a high standard spec. Including the E30 M3 which came with leather, electric windows, AC, optional sunroof and heated seats etc. No wonder it weighed as much or more as a regular 325i, despite having a much lighter engine, panels, glass etc.


I too agree with the other poster that the E46 felt a tad artificial in some of its deliveries, as if it was trying a tad too hard. No matter, it's still all in good fun.

But it was not the best M3 - excelled in some areas, mediocre in others. (Yes, including the steering feel).
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      03-17-2010, 09:26 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Sorry, but what you're saying doesn't make much sense either.

The base spec E92 weighs 3600 lbs, a 200 lbs increase over the E46, which was a 250lbs increase over the E36, which was a 300lbs increase over the E30. Meaning, it's the smallest gross increase of weight of any generation, and the smallest one by far if you look percentage-wise.
The spirit of the original M3 - the E30 - was of an inline 4, not 6.
The spirit of the US E36 M3 was of a torquey and not very high revving inline 6.
Forget Navigation and M dynamic mode, that's for sissies. BMW doesn't "make" you do anything at all, it's all in your head.

And every generation M3 - every single one of them - has been pretty much a 3 series loaded up to the gills with a high standard spec. Including the E30 M3 which came with leather, electric windows, AC, optional sunroof and heated seats etc. No wonder it weighed as much or more as a regular 325i, despite having a much lighter engine, panels, glass etc.


I too agree with the other poster that the E46 felt a tad artificial in some of its deliveries, as if it was trying a tad too hard. No matter, it's still all in good fun.

But it was not the best M3 - excelled in some areas, mediocre in others. (Yes, including the steering feel).

Ok, i disagree with a good amount of what you are saying but I see your point.

Thats one part of my argument. Now, where does comfort come in?

And again, artificial is nothing more than an opinion, adc.

Not saying it was the best M3 or the best everyday car. And as far as steering goes, I had a 06 Competition. The E92 M3s steering is nowhere near as awesome as the E46 Competition. Not even close.


EDIT: BTW, the average M3 on the market is 3700 pounds. With your logic of increasing weight, the next M3 should be around 4000 pounds. The M3 after that should be 4300 pounds. Sorry man, thats not a valid argument. The difference between the E30, 36, 46 and 92 should not be looked at as "hey, its the pattern". Times have changed, technology has changed. These vehicles should be going lighter, not the other way around and then using the growth between E30 and E36 to justify it.

I dont know about you, I dont want to drive a 4xxx pound M3. I rather it be lighter and more agile. Not heavier with a bigger powerplant... or I would go with Benz.
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      03-17-2010, 09:43 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
Ok, i disagree with a good amount of what you are saying but I see your point.
It's cool, we're all sharing opinions. I bear no ill will to anybody who disagrees with me. (I've been wrong too many times).

Quote:
Thats one part of my argument. Now, where does comfort come in?
Comfort is relative - here is what I mean. All M3's have had a high standard spec, and could be loaded with every single comfort feature available on the 3 series of their era.

If you mean suspension comfort, there is a big difference between crashy and compliant. Where the E46 crashed through small road imperfections (potholes, expansion ridges) and fidgeted on bumpy roads, the E90 is more composed and more compliant over small imperfections. That speaks of better bushing selection and much better dampers.

Similar story with the E36, was a tad crashy yet at the same time rolled a little too much stock. I had a chance to drive my ex-E36 back to back with my then-current E46 ZHP (a car of similar size/weight/specs) over an unruly piece of heaved concrete highway and the ZHP was much more composed without giving away handling-wise - all down to dampers IMO.

EDC is the single most valuable option for a street driven E9x, IMO. Tightens down really well when in Sport mode - there is very little slack in that mode. It offers more comfort when you want, and the car simply handles better when you're on it. Has less understeer, more adjustable on the throttle, simply incredible on high speed sweepers. I find the combination mind blowing.

Quote:
And again, artificial is nothing more than an opinion, adc.
Granted. That's all we've got here in these discussions.

Because if yo go by the numbers, the E9x is a much more capable car, on and off the track.


Quote:
And as far as steering goes, I had a 06 Competition. The E92 M3s steering is nowhere near as awesome as the E46 Competition. Not even close.
I'm saying that's not saying much.

For example, the ZHP steering blowed the ZCP steering into the weeds. You need to try one to believe it, I thought it was better than the E36 M3. Delicate, feelsome, consistently weighed at all speeds.

We'll also have to wait for the E9x ZCP if you want to compare to the E46 ZCP.
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