BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-08-2010, 04:38 AM   #1
TheKosherStogie
Lieutenant Colonel
 
TheKosherStogie's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 M3 DCT AW/Red
Join Date: May 2009
Location: West Hollywood

Posts: 1,533
iTrader: (1)

My Gintani SC M3 Track Day w/ no water in cooler!

A few weeks ago I went to dinner with a friend on a rainy night. Pulled into parking lot and as i pulled into my space I pulled in to far and the bumper went over parking block, as a result of my looking at the e46 m3 in charcoal next to me, my favorite color. So i backed up, hear a bunch of grinding ect...I shreek and get out to look. My left fender cracked ?! ... realized the parking block pulled so hard on the bottom of the bumper it cause it to press on the fender and cracked it. SUCKS! and bottom of bumper was pulled out a bit.

Two days later was the Streets of Willow Track day i went to... drove the hell out of the car... did 5 sessions on the track ... hit redline line/limiter multiple times. Just a fun track day. Car temps were normal the whole time. Car ran perfect.

A few days later went to do some 60-130 runs... was at gas station to fill up with 2 friends. Went to check water level in cooler... and it was empty... thought "oh crap" ...so went to fill it... wasn't filling...look down and water is streaming down the floor from under the car. So I take the car to Gintani had Alex take a look. Well the night i messed up bumper i had tore a hose or something, im not too technical so dont know exactly... but caused all the water from the cooler to drain.

So Alex had it fixed by the next day...but I just thought what a testament to the quality and tuning of the Gintani Supercharger this was! A full track day with no water in there...and the car never got hot or had any issues or knocking. I believe that says alot!

I would like to say something as well about the guys at gintani. ( cause i see all the drama on the forums, so would like to say my 2 cents)
My father raised me on the premise of "all a man has is his word." To never lie, cheat or steal... and to live honestly with good morals. I try to only associate with people of these values. I consider myself a good judge of character...and Alex is a guy i trust and know doesn't b.s. or lie. He is a very honorable guy and thats why i will always recommend him to anyone and everyone. Both Alex and his brother Arno run a honorable business, and they have taken care of me as a customer. Regardless if I contacted them with question about my car or others, even when it had nothing to do with them or their shop and there was no profit for them, they would be more than happy to help. It is people like this I like to associate myself with and consider more than just business people, they are genuine, quality people. And i will say it is a rare thing to know guys like this. I would put myself and my word on the line for those guys. .

They make great products that speak for themselves. They do straight and honest business.
__________________
13 E92 M3 ZCP
Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7

Last edited by TheKosherStogie; 03-08-2010 at 10:49 AM.
TheKosherStogie is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 05:48 AM   #2
mixja
Captain
 
Drives: 2011 E90 DCT Silverstone
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Beverly Hils, CA

Posts: 783
iTrader: (1)

Interesting - did they mention they specifically tune such that if the IATs are high they appropriately adjust fuel and timing? I think PG once said the factory ECU has no IAT compensation maps in place (which I find somewhat strange). I've seen posts from ESS mentioning how they have protection measures in place so I'm guessing Gintani (or rather Powerchip?) have done the same...

Hopefully you'll be OK - I bet your EGTs would have gotten pretty high and prolonged high EGTs can cause excessive wear and piston damage (picture melting).
mixja is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:22 AM   #3
KiokenM3
Lieutenant Colonel
 
KiokenM3's Avatar
 
Drives: LIFTED JEEP JK!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: LA

Posts: 1,507
iTrader: (4)

wow lucky you didnt damage your car
KiokenM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:29 AM   #4
Eugene-TAIWAN
Brigadier General
 
Eugene-TAIWAN's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan

Posts: 3,098
iTrader: (4)

top notch tunning!
__________________

Past: Gintani stage3 M3
present: Porsche 993RWB, 964RS America,996 cupcar, Panamera Turbo
waiting to be delivered 2015:
Porsche 991 GT3RS
Eugene-TAIWAN is offline   Taiwan
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:34 AM   #5
ScheerSpeed
Major General
 
ScheerSpeed's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 F30 Estoril M-Sport 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Miami, FL

Posts: 5,770
iTrader: (14)

Send a message via AIM to ScheerSpeed Send a message via MSN to ScheerSpeed
how could the temp be fine if there was no water in the radiator? the temp gauge needs water in order to get a reading...
ScheerSpeed is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:46 AM   #6
FStop7
I like cars
 
FStop7's Avatar
 
Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Posts: 5,059
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed View Post
how could the temp be fine if there was no water in the radiator? the temp gauge needs water in order to get a reading...
I don't think he's talking about the radiator. He's talking about the air to water intercooler for the supercharger.
__________________
FStop7 is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:47 AM   #7
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,306
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed View Post
how could the temp be fine if there was no water in the radiator? the temp gauge needs water in order to get a reading...
He is referring to the charge cooler for the supercharger, not the engine radiator.
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi

Last edited by DLSJ5; 03-08-2010 at 11:53 AM.
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:54 AM   #8
Lemans_Blue_M
Automotive Industry Insider
 
Lemans_Blue_M's Avatar
 
Drives: Lemans Blue M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas

Posts: 1,948
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
He is referring the charge cooler for the supercharger, not the engine radiator.
Okay, that makes more sense, wonder why he didn't just say that?

Not that it really matters, since the car was never in any danger of overheating anyway...

Sammy probably doesn't understand the real reason why his car didn't shutdown.
__________________
The best is yet to come...
Lemans_Blue_M is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 11:59 AM   #9
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,306
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Okay, that makes more sense, wonder why he didn't just say that?

Not that it really matters, since the car was never in any danger of overheating anyway...

Sammy probably doesn't understand the real reason why his car didn't shutdown.
"Went to check water level in cooler" is what he posted Bro, agreed not totally specific, however if the engine rad had leaked completely, then the car would have shut down long before the track day. He's only running around 5psi, so it makes sense.
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 12:23 PM   #10
Lemans_Blue_M
Automotive Industry Insider
 
Lemans_Blue_M's Avatar
 
Drives: Lemans Blue M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas

Posts: 1,948
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
"Went to check water level in cooler" is what he posted Bro, agreed not totally specific, however if the engine rad had leaked completely, then the car would have shut down long before the track day. He's only running around 5psi, so it makes sense.
Yea, that's what I meant by Sammy not understanding why his car didn't shutdown a few weeks ago.

5psi of boost is not a big deal in regards to generating heat this time of year.

Drew, the ESS Stg. I supercharger kit runs 4.5 psi WITHOUT any intercooling whatsoever. (standard production kit)

The cooling system on the E9x M3 is a lot better than the system we had on the E46 M3. It was a neccessity to make a lot of upgrades to the E46 M3 to keep the engine cool.

As long as your IAT's are lower than 120-130 degrees, there is no reason to worry. With the ambient air temps that Sammy was running in socal a few weeks back, it doesn't matter if the cooler was functioning properly or not.

If the car would have heated up to anything close to the dangerous level, the ECU would have pulled some timing to protect itself.

When it's 50-65 degrees outside, your IAT's are not going to be a problem when you are only running low boost. (as opposed to the IAT's when it's 100-110 degrees in the summer)

Sammy's car wasn't going to overheat regardless given the atmospheric conditions.
__________________
The best is yet to come...

Last edited by Lemans_Blue_M; 03-08-2010 at 12:29 PM.
Lemans_Blue_M is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 12:49 PM   #11
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,306
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Yea, that's what I meant by Sammy not understanding why his car didn't shutdown a few weeks ago.

5psi of boost is not a big deal in regards to generating heat this time of year.

Drew, the ESS Stg. I supercharger kit runs 4.5 psi WITHOUT any intercooling whatsoever. (standard production kit)

The cooling system on the E9x M3 is a lot better than the system we had on the E46 M3. It was a neccessity to make a lot of upgrades to the E46 M3 to keep the engine cool.

As long as your IAT's are lower than 120-130 degrees, there is no reason to worry. With the ambient air temps that Sammy was running in socal a few weeks back, it doesn't matter if the cooler was functioning properly or not.

If the car would have heated up to anything close to the dangerous level, the ECU would have pulled some timing to protect itself.

When it's 50-65 degrees outside, your IAT's are not going to be a problem when you are only running low boost. (as opposed to the IAT's when it's 100-110 degrees in the summer)

Sammy's car wasn't going to overheat regardless given the atmospheric conditions.
Well in track situations the car is pushed much harder, so I think him sharing this experience says something about the kit's hardware, tuning, etc. Good point, I was going to reference ESS's non-intercooled system as well, but I was trying to keep the tuner politics out of it.
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 01:08 PM   #12
Bob MG
Moderating
 
Bob MG's Avatar
 
Drives: like a muppet
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Vienna

Posts: 1,764
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
, but I was trying to keep the tuner politics out of it.
not likely!!
Bob MG is offline   Greenland
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 01:25 PM   #13
powertrip
Scared money don't make money.
 
powertrip's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Irvine, CA

Posts: 1,458
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
Yeah, god forbid that another tuner besides ESS has reliable FI vehicles on the road .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
not likely!!
__________________
2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather
OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS
HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
powertrip is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 03:02 PM   #14
TheKosherStogie
Lieutenant Colonel
 
TheKosherStogie's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 M3 DCT AW/Red
Join Date: May 2009
Location: West Hollywood

Posts: 1,533
iTrader: (1)

i try to stay out of all the bs'ing... all i try to do is post what goes on with my car...then people can hopefully see thru all the crap talking and lies that circulate and make a decision for themselves.
__________________
13 E92 M3 ZCP
Stock w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:33:9 / BW C13 2:03:6 / ACS 1:56:7
KW CS w/Rs3 - WSIR 1:32:8 / BW C13 1:59:2 / ACS 1:55:1
APR Wing/Rs3 - WSIR 1:30:9 / BW C13 1:57:7
TheKosherStogie is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 03:10 PM   #15
Bob MG
Moderating
 
Bob MG's Avatar
 
Drives: like a muppet
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Vienna

Posts: 1,764
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
Yeah, god forbid that another tuner besides ESS has reliable FI vehicles on the road .
I didn't mean it like that
just that comments pitting up Gintani and ESS camps against each other are so predictable. They are both great, I went ESS but I for one love reading these banter threads

Bob MG is offline   Greenland
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 03:13 PM   #16
MspiredM3
Private First Class
 
MspiredM3's Avatar
 
Drives: Turbo e46 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Encino, CA

Posts: 171
iTrader: (0)

Very nice Sammy, that is impressive that you had absolutely no heating issues under track conditions!
MspiredM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 03:14 PM   #17
powertrip
Scared money don't make money.
 
powertrip's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Irvine, CA

Posts: 1,458
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
Sorry bro, I didn't mean it toward you. I just meant that the thread would most likely come under attack because the review was on a Gintani product. I personally like both company's products .

In addition, I really like Sam's posts because he tries to be as unbiased as possible .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob MG View Post
I didn't mean it like that
just that comments pitting up Gintani and ESS camps against each other. I went ESS and I for one love reading these banter threads
__________________
2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather
OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS
HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
powertrip is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 03:20 PM   #18
Bob MG
Moderating
 
Bob MG's Avatar
 
Drives: like a muppet
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Vienna

Posts: 1,764
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
Sorry bro, I didn't mean it toward you. I just meant that the thread would most likely come under attack because the review was on a Gintani product. I personally like both company's products .

In addition, I really like Sam's posts because he tries to be as unbiased as possible .
me to, both great products. Sam your car was the first thread I saw of a FI M3. Impressive!

And good to see Alex take care of you so well!

Last edited by Bob MG; 03-09-2010 at 12:09 AM.
Bob MG is offline   Greenland
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 09:37 PM   #19
mixja
Captain
 
Drives: 2011 E90 DCT Silverstone
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Beverly Hils, CA

Posts: 783
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Yea, that's what I meant by Sammy not understanding why his car didn't shutdown a few weeks ago.

5psi of boost is not a big deal in regards to generating heat this time of year.

Drew, the ESS Stg. I supercharger kit runs 4.5 psi WITHOUT any intercooling whatsoever. (standard production kit)

The cooling system on the E9x M3 is a lot better than the system we had on the E46 M3. It was a neccessity to make a lot of upgrades to the E46 M3 to keep the engine cool.

As long as your IAT's are lower than 120-130 degrees, there is no reason to worry. With the ambient air temps that Sammy was running in socal a few weeks back, it doesn't matter if the cooler was functioning properly or not.

If the car would have heated up to anything close to the dangerous level, the ECU would have pulled some timing to protect itself.

When it's 50-65 degrees outside, your IAT's are not going to be a problem when you are only running low boost. (as opposed to the IAT's when it's 100-110 degrees in the summer)

Sammy's car wasn't going to overheat regardless given the atmospheric conditions.
I think ESS posted up somewhere there Stage I non-intercooled system runs like 195 F IATs (cannot recall the ambient temperature).

I melted pistons on the track with no recorded knock running IATs of around 160F, running 11:1 AFRs. The reason was my EGTs were running at 950C for about two minutes before the pistons melted. This was a Subaru STI with silicon cast pistons running about 15PSI boost at high RPMs (with a not very good V-Mount Intercooler setup). Timing was being pulled back significantly because of the high IATs, but the EGTs still were just too high (note oil temperatures never went higher than 120C)

Granted different cars and engines, but hope this serves as a word of warning for anybody thinking non-intercooled setups (whether intentional or not in this case) are going to be reliable on the track.
mixja is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 10:05 PM   #20
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
 
DLSJ5's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 3,306
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
I think ESS posted up somewhere there Stage I non-intercooled system runs like 195 F IATs (cannot recall the ambient temperature).

I melted pistons on the track with no recorded knock running IATs of around 160F, running 11:1 AFRs. The reason was my EGTs were running at 950C for about two minutes before the pistons melted. This was a Subaru STI with silicon cast pistons running about 15PSI boost at high RPMs (with a not very good V-Mount Intercooler setup). Timing was being pulled back significantly because of the high IATs, but the EGTs still were just too high (note oil temperatures never went higher than 120C)

Granted different cars and engines, but hope this serves as a word of warning for anybody thinking non-intercooled setups (whether intentional or not in this case) are going to be reliable on the track.
Great info!
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ @ 7.2psi - 94 octane / Water meth
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi
DLSJ5 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-08-2010, 10:34 PM   #21
Alex@Alpine
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 1,541
iTrader: (36)

Send a message via AIM to Alex@Alpine
I was there that track day, did notice the damage on Sammy's fender, car was pushed for hours, chunks of brake dust all over his wheels, car was pushed really hard and held up, didn't know you was running with out your cooler, def some props
__________________
Alex@Alpine is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-09-2010, 12:03 PM   #22
niterider
Proove It!
 
Drives: Gintani Supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: City of Angels

Posts: 633
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
I think ESS posted up somewhere there Stage I non-intercooled system runs like 195 F IATs (cannot recall the ambient temperature).

I melted pistons on the track with no recorded knock running IATs of around 160F, running 11:1 AFRs. The reason was my EGTs were running at 950C for about two minutes before the pistons melted. This was a Subaru STI with silicon cast pistons running about 15PSI boost at high RPMs (with a not very good V-Mount Intercooler setup). Timing was being pulled back significantly because of the high IATs, but the EGTs still were just too high (note oil temperatures never went higher than 120C)

Granted different cars and engines, but hope this serves as a word of warning for anybody thinking non-intercooled setups (whether intentional or not in this case) are going to be reliable on the track.
+1 I personally would not run an FI system with no kind of added cooling, Ive seen way too many engines go kaboom cause of heating prob. specially on FI applications.
__________________

Last edited by niterider; 03-09-2010 at 12:14 PM.
niterider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST