M3 Clubsport package?

[Levi]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Although a competition pack has been introduced for the M3 it is ineveitable that by 2012 2 years before the current car is replaced that a "Phase II" CS package will be available for the M3.

Do I understand properly? So there was M3, then before facelift there was the M3 Edition, with facelift there is M3 Competition, and before new M3 F30 there will be M3 Clubsport? Does it mean the M3 might get M3 GTS parts (brakes, coilovers, exhaust, seats, intaike) or even M3 GTS engine?

[VIP75344]

Furthermore, is 2012 M3 Clubsport available in North America?

[mkoesel]

I assume those last questions are rhetorical since no one knows yet, but anything is possible. I am still skeptical of engine changes, but who knows. Exhaust and brakes are good possibilities. Coil-overs, seats and intake are unlikely, IMHO.

[Levi]

Yesterday at the Auto Show in Geneva I spoke with some of BMW and they told me there will be a BMW Perormance CF Air Intake. I also spoke about Z4 M, and well, the way he answered me, I understood that "YES".

[VIP75344]

so there will be M3 Clubsport for sure?

[Levi]

Yes, if the M1 comes out and will be lighter and more powerfull than previously planned. So it will go from 350 hp to 380 hp maybe.

[aajami]

With all due respect to Levi, I think any talk of changes or introductions BMW will make to the E9x M3 in MY12 at this point is pure speculation. Case in point: Last week, the M1 was all but confirmed to come out later this year, but as of yesterday, that's no longer the case. Furthermore, the speculation regarding a power boost in '12 stemmed from the fact that the M1 was going to be uncomfortably close to the current M3 in terms of performance. With the M1 getting nerfed into a 135is, BMW retains a healthy performance gap between it and the M3. And any power to the E9x M3 might upset the 100+ people who paid through the nose for an M3 GTS, many of which probably won't be available for delivery until the MY12s start rolling out of the factory.

Let's put the brakes on rumors until we start hearing it from more reliable sources with more frequency.

[Levi]

Originally Posted by aajami

And any power to the E9x M3 might upset the 100+ people who paid through the nose for an M3 GTS, many of which probably won't be available for delivery until the MY12s start rolling out of the factory.

Let's put the brakes on rumors until we start hearing it from more reliable sources with more frequency.

Yes, but do we know anything about the M3 GTS? I don't. Maybe it has 450 Hp and 500 Nm at 4.000-8.000 rpm and 400 Nm at 1.000 rpm? Maybe it wights 1.420 kg DIN? Maybe it accelerates from 0-100 km/h in 3,5 sec? Maybe it reaches 330 km/h? Maybe it runs 7:30 around the Ring? If it is so this car is a bargain compared to 911 GT3 RS, 911 Turbo S, Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera, Corvette ZR1, 458 Italia, LFA, GT-R......I do not see how can these owners be upset by an M3 Clubsport that would maybe run 7:50 on the Ring, but cost pretty much.
-68.350 € for M3
-72.650 € for M3 Competition
-80.000 € for M3 Clubsport
115.000 € for M3 GTS
102.590 € for M3 "fully loaded"

[JC919]

Weird, I thought the GTS would fill the 'clubsport' role

[MrLOL]

Originally Posted by JC919

Weird, I thought the GTS would fill the 'clubsport' role

Well no

the e46 m3 CS (clubsport) was a halfway house between the regular M3 and the hardcore CSL.

the GTS is actually even more hardcore than the CSL, since its been marketed with a rollcageand fire extinguisher etc.. in all the press shots. They've clearly aimed it as a pure trackday machine, whereas the CSL was still designed with road use in mind.

the CS had the improvements in suspension, but without the need for the C.F. roof and carboard boot liner etc..

So the GTS isnt a replacement for the M3 CS.

But, read about what made the M3 CS different from the regular M3

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...50/bmw_m3.html

And the upgrades made available for the M3 CS had already been sold as ... The competition package.

Which is exactly what BMW have just announced in geneva. If BMW do an M3 Clubsport, it will just be an M3 with the competition package and maybe a BBK and the odd tweak here and there.

In exactly the same way BMW was worried about upsetting CSL owners, i can see them doing the same with the GTS owners and not releasing the 4.4 engine to the regular M3. RS5 or not.

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by Levi

Yes, but do we know anything about the M3 GTS? I don't. Maybe it has 450 Hp and 500 Nm at 4.000-8.000 rpm and 400 Nm at 1.000 rpm? Maybe it wights 1.420 kg DIN? Maybe it accelerates from 0-100 km/h in 3,5 sec? Maybe it reaches 330 km/h? Maybe it runs 7:30 around the Ring?

GTS Ring time will be around 7:30-7:25 according to the lastest information. Remember E46 CSL with 7:50 time using almost 10 years old tire technology. MY 2011 GTS absolutely _should_ make 7:30 in order to achieve a reasonable result.

Ferrari 599XX is claimed to run Ring under 7:00, ordinary 599 GTB making about 7:47. That's figure to compare.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by Pitkis

GTS Ring time will be around 7:30-7:25 according to the lastest information. Remember E46 CSL with 7:50 time using almost 10 years old tire technology. MY 2011 GTS absolutely _should_ make 7:30 in order to achieve a reasonable result.

Ferrari 599XX is claimed to run Ring under 7:00, ordinary 599 GTB making about 7:47. That's figure to compare.

You sound pretty sure about the GTS time. Some more times (from Wikipedia) for comparison sake:

Porsche 911 GT2 7:32.02 (2008)
Porsche 911 Carrera GT 7:28.71
Nissan GTR -- 7:26.7
Chevy Corvette C6 ZR1 -- 7:26.4
Ferrari Enzo -- 7.25.3
Dodge Viper ACR -- 7:22.1

Levi,

I'd be interested to hear more about the Z4 M. If this is true then the M division has started singing a different tune of lately.

[studntloan]

I would b very interested in a z4m...

[aajami]

Originally Posted by MrLOL

Well no

the e46 m3 CS (clubsport) was a halfway house between the regular M3 and the hardcore CSL.

the GTS is actually even more hardcore than the CSL, since its been marketed with a rollcageand fire extinguisher etc.. in all the press shots. They've clearly aimed it as a pure trackday machine, whereas the CSL was still designed with road use in mind.

the CS had the improvements in suspension, but without the need for the C.F. roof and carboard boot liner etc..

So the GTS isnt a replacement for the M3 CS.

But, read about what made the M3 CS different from the regular M3

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...50/bmw_m3.html

And the upgrades made available for the M3 CS had already been sold as ... The competition package.

Which is exactly what BMW have just announced in geneva. If BMW do an M3 Clubsport, it will just be an M3 with the competition package and maybe a BBK and the odd tweak here and there.

In exactly the same way BMW was worried about upsetting CSL owners, i can see them doing the same with the GTS owners and not releasing the 4.4 engine to the regular M3. RS5 or not.

The car in your link is the just the E46 M3 with the ZCP package. BMW already introduced the ZCP package for the E92 M3.

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by ersin

You sound pretty sure about the GTS time. Some more times (from Wikipedia) for comparison sake:

Porsche 911 GT2 7:32.02 (2008)
Porsche 911 Carrera GT 7:28.71
Nissan GTR -- 7:26.7
Chevy Corvette C6 ZR1 -- 7:26.4
Ferrari Enzo -- 7.25.3
Dodge Viper ACR -- 7:22.1

Well, you have to hope for the best....

I am fully aware of times you mentioned. The figures are the best source to estimate GTS performance. Since the specs are still to be confirmed, final performance is of course unknown. BMW has been pulling out about 500 hp from the engine, but who knows what's the final power?

Some comparison:
Ferrari 599 GTB 7:47 - 599XX slightly under 7:00 (Source: Ferrari)
F430 F1 7:55 - F430 Scuderia 7:39
E46 M3 8:22 - E46 CSL 7:50
E92 M3 8:05 - E92 GTS 7:30

Agree? The difference between basic and GTS M3 is way much closer to 599 and 599XX than E46 M3 and E46 CSL. GTS is, as far as the information obtained from the reliable sources stands correct, a real racecar for the road. It costs double the price of original car and is not a "clubsport" version like F430 Scuderia that, even at 1/3 higher price than base car, cuts almost 20 seconds from Ring time.

So, I'd say that BMW has failed if GTS don't make Ring 7:35 or better. 7:30 sharp sounds like a good target and cutting that might slightly exceed expectations.

[MrLOL]

Originally Posted by aajami

The car in your link is the just the E46 M3 with the ZCP package. BMW already introduced the ZCP package for the E92 M3.

The car in my link was sold in the UK as the BMW M3 Clubsport or M3 CS

this is my point.

If you get a CS, it will just be a car with the ZCP package already added a few other bits and pieces. the "clubsport" has always been a "warmed up" m3 with minor tweaks, rather than a hardcore special edition like the GTS / CSL.

The OP is speculating that this "club sport pack" will mean GTS parts and maybe the 4.4 V8 out of the GTS. It just wont

it will just be the M3 with the cometition package and a few minor tweaks like the E46 M3 Clubsport was. I presume you never got it in the US ?

everything else they've done on the E92 M3, has mirrored the E46 (no front end refresh at the LCI for example) so i see no reason for them to break the trend now.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by MrLOL

The car in my link was sold in the UK as the BMW M3 Clubsport or M3 CS

Clubsport in the UK = Competition Package in the USA

And the author of that old CS article was incorrect in stating that the CS -or even the CSL- wheels were forged. Both wheels were spun cast.

Unless BMWNA takes the Clubsport name as a distinct version (extra "racing" features) of the M3 in the USA then it will continue be the ZCP here in the USA.

[RandyB]

Originally Posted by Levi

Yesterday at the Auto Show in Geneva I spoke with some of BMW and they told me there will be a BMW Performance CF Air Intake.

Nice! I hope they come through with this.

[elp_jc]

Originally Posted by aajami

Furthermore, the speculation regarding a power boost in '12 stemmed from the fact that the M1 was going to be uncomfortably close to the current M3 in terms of performance.

Well, the M3 is 'uncomfortably close' to the M6 (or even better, by some accounts) in performance, so even if true that means nothing .

[BMWCadet]

Originally Posted by MrLOL

Well no

the e46 m3 CS (clubsport) was a halfway house between the regular M3 and the hardcore CSL.

the GTS is actually even more hardcore than the CSL, since its been marketed with a rollcageand fire extinguisher etc.. in all the press shots. They've clearly aimed it as a pure trackday machine, whereas the CSL was still designed with road use in mind.

the CS had the improvements in suspension, but without the need for the C.F. roof and carboard boot liner etc..

So the GTS isnt a replacement for the M3 CS.

But, read about what made the M3 CS different from the regular M3

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...50/bmw_m3.html

And the upgrades made available for the M3 CS had already been sold as ... The competition package.

Which is exactly what BMW have just announced in geneva. If BMW do an M3 Clubsport, it will just be an M3 with the competition package and maybe a BBK and the odd tweak here and there.

In exactly the same way BMW was worried about upsetting CSL owners, i can see them doing the same with the GTS owners and not releasing the 4.4 engine to the regular M3. RS5 or not.

The GTS isn't only about the 4.4l engine. If BMW wants to reenergize M3 sales, they replace the 4.0l. If not, then this generation will end rather quietly because no one's knocking down doors to buy whats out there right now.

Also people need to stop living as if its the year 2002. The competition has caught up. Straightline or not, people are going the C63 route because it has a lot more power and 90% of the owners out there will never take their cars to the track anyway so straightline performance is all that matters to them.

If they released the 4.4l engine, i'd be at the dealer the next day and i'm sure i'm not the only one. Yeah, there will be a lot of angry owners, but so what? Its a business and businesses are hurting right now.

[Levi]

Whatever, the good thing is that BMW M is cooking something very delicious, including the M3 GTS.

[duk]

What I think will happen is no clubsport, M division will invest resources in the next M3 and intro that asap, prob 2013. They want to be greener and leaner to match other car makers.