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View Poll Results: WHO MAKE THE BEST S65 S/C KIT
G-POWER 10 13.16%
ESS 40 52.63%
GINTANI 30 39.47%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-17-2010, 06:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
The customer with the Green ESS SC is a member here on M3post. We had the kit installed and running within two days. What we loved about the ESS kit was that fact that it was not over engineered like many other kits we have seen on the market. Less is more right when we get the brakes back from Brembo we will go to the dyno and post a full review on the ESS kit.

The customer with the Red ESS kit will be installing it here in a few weeks. He is also a M3post member.
Less is more? I don't want green parts no one can see, I want power, and pretty colors do not achieve it.

To whom are you referring regarding many other kits? There are not many other kits and what have you seen exactly? You are not located near anyone producing kits and it is a small number.
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      01-17-2010, 06:06 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectify View Post
Could not handle the SC? I don't really understand that, seems you are trying to put a person down instead of get a context for mechanical issues.

The BMW transmission cooler was not designed with the DCT in mind and definitely not with more power in mind. It is the same cooler the manual transmission uses yet the DCT puts out far more power. Why have people overheated with stock power? Why have DCT's gone into limp mode stock on the track? Let me guess, they could not handle the power or is it that the cooler is under-engineered to begin with?

You seem to be blaming an individual for mechanical issues due to BMW skimping on parts instead of giving the DCT the better cooler it needs. That is reckless and not correct.
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The "extra" parts make it difficult to diagnose an issue with any forced induction kit? Really? Water-meth or a properly designed cooler do that? I don't understand, what are you basing this on? Would you please stop speaking in general terms as if to prove something and actually focus on a specific?

What is the problem with water-meth? HPF has run it successfully and someone not running it on 91 octane can potentially be creating a issues that would not take place with a proper water-meth setup.

I beleive VF blew 3 motors on 91 octane because they disregarded the water-meth yet this company is one you defended and now you are saying this type of thing is superfluous? You are not making sense and the results do not support your assertions.

This statement is reckless and dangerous and I can not believe how someone can say it:



Whom are you referring to or are you simply throwing generic things out there? Seems you are forced induction systems that have custom options that the owner desires are done so to mask an engineering flaw? I can't believe this and I really think this needs to be nipped in the bud now as you continue to think you are some kind of authority yet you have no hands on experience with what you are referencing.
Finally someone with some knowledge.
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      01-17-2010, 06:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
Here is a tuner contest set up by EuroTuner magazine. A Gintani owner showed up with his SC M3. Results from the Gintani SC M3 were somewhat disappointing.

http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/view...r=asc&start=25

Anyone know the boost and fuel used in the dyno portion of the contest? The Gintani M3 put down 592whp on a dynojet. There is dyno results posted from an ESS VT2-600 kit putting down 635whp on a dynojet.

Sticky will be heading to the dragstrip on the 30th, to try put down a good time for Gintani. He is running very high boost and meth. Not exactly a mild streetable setup.
Why are you looking at peak figures?

It has been established there are several boost levels at work yet you are making a sweeping generalization. Not to mention you are making it dependent on a dyno posted by ESS which is uncorrected as they have done many times before.

Where are indpendent ESS numbers? Where are ESS track times? Where are ESS 60-130 figures? Why has ESS not responded to challenges by other forced induction companies? Why does ESS continue to post dyno numbers instead of real world results?

It is far easier to type and post uncorrected dyno graphs than get out there and put it to the test in the real world. So far, it seems only one company has done something other than post dyno graphs.

From what I have seen from the car you are referencing is that it is tuned on 91 octane and run on the street, how is it not a streetable setup? The issue is no other tuner is at this level yet.
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      01-17-2010, 06:18 PM   #48
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LOL- Funny how the votes for Gintani went from 4 to 17 in a matter of an hour.

A little fishy.


Also I knew a certain "banned" member could not stay away from this thread. He just had to make a new account. You know who you are.


This thread was created with a Gintani bias. Funny thing is the votes went totally in ESS favor.
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      01-17-2010, 06:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
LOL- Funny how the votes for Gintani went from 4 to 17 in a matter of an hour.

A little fishy.


Also I knew a certain "banned" member could not stay away from this thread. He just had to make a new account. You know who you are.


This thread was created with a Gintani bias. Funny thing is the votes went totally in ESS favor.
Yes, mob mentality always produces the correct conclusion, brilliant. Polls hardly prove the superior hardware and software.

Funny how ESS has not posted a single real world figure, they only post uncorrected dyno's that the small minded eat up. Funny thing, isn't it?

What is fishy is how bimmerpost has been protecting ESS.
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      01-17-2010, 06:29 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectify View Post
Why are you looking at peak figures?

It has been established there are several boost levels at work yet you are making a sweeping generalization. Not to mention you are making it dependent on a dyno posted by ESS which is uncorrected as they have done many times before.

Where are indpendent ESS numbers? Where are ESS track times? Where are ESS 60-130 figures? Why has ESS not responded to challenges by other forced induction companies? Why does ESS continue to post dyno numbers instead of real world results?

It is far easier to type and post uncorrected dyno graphs than get out there and put it to the test in the real world. So far, it seems only one company has done something other than post dyno graphs.

From what I have seen from the car you are referencing is that it is tuned on 91 octane and run on the street, how is it not a streetable setup? The issue is no other tuner is at this level yet.
I do not recall ever having a vendor challenge us to a dyno shoot out or race. If anyone would like to bring there car here to AZ we would be more then happy to have a friendly run or a dyno day. If our car makes a little less power or is a little slower its not the end of the world, life goes on. We dont feel the need to pound our chest and declare that we make the fastest most powerful cars in the world. We simply try to build a properly tuned well designed product that helps customers go a little faster so far the customers who have purchased our supercharger products for the E9X M3 have been happy with the product and that is all we can hope for.

We are very aware of how much power this car can make on pump gas and where the safety limits are. A great deal of time went into testing the limits of this motor with FI on pump fuel. We have done our best to keep safety margin a high priority with this and all of our products while at the same time making a competitive kit. At the end of the day its always good that there are different vendors / options for customers so they can find the product that best fits their needs.
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      01-17-2010, 06:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
I do not recall ever having a vendor challenge us to a dyno shoot out or race. If anyone would like to bring there car here to AZ we would be more then happy to have a friendly run or a dyno day. If our car makes a little less power or is a little slower its not the end of the world, life goes on. We dont feel the need to pound our chest and declare that we make the fastest most powerful cars in the world. We simply try to build a properly tuned well designed product that helps customers go a little faster so far the customers who have purchased our supercharger products for the E9X M3 have been happy with the product and that is all we can hope for.

We are very aware of how much power this car can make on pump gas and where the safety limits are. A great deal of time went into testing the limits of this motor with FI on pump fuel. We have done our best to keep safety margin a high priority with this and all of our products while at the same time making a competitive kit. At the end of the day its always good that there are different vendors / options for customers so they can find the product that best fits their needs.
Someone needs to bring their car to Arizona????? I thought the kits were reliable, why not prove it by driving from Arizona to go against one of the Gintani cars? Glad to know you accept the challenge though, I'm sure the competition will be glad to hear it and something will be worked out shortly.

If you do not feel the need to post you are the fastest why do you post uncorrected graphs showing inflated peak figures?

Exactly, it is great that there are different options out there. However, there is only one option for people who want the top performance at the moment and there are several for those who want a wide safety margin. ESS is not the only one who has been doing testing although for some reason it is portrayed that way. Why have you not posted any numbers from a drag strip?
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      01-17-2010, 06:56 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectify View Post
Someone needs to bring their car to Arizona????? I thought the kits were reliable, why not prove it by driving from Arizona to go against one of the Gintani cars? Glad to know you accept the challenge though, I'm sure the competition will be glad to hear it and something will be worked out shortly.

If you do not feel the need to post you are the fastest why do you post uncorrected graphs showing inflated peak figures?

Exactly, it is great that there are different options out there. However, there is only one option for people who want the top performance at the moment and there are several for those who want a wide safety margin.
Here you go As I have said before this is a file sent from a dealer in Korea running a custom race map and a custom catless exhaust system, it is not an off the shelf VT2-600 kit. This dyno was not taken on our dyno with any of our company cars. We do not claim these numbers are typical of the VT2-600 but the dyno was shared to show the capabilities of the kit on pump 93 octane fuel @ 6.5 psi. A more realistic number for a VT2-600 on pump 93 would be around 510-520 whp SAE.

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      01-17-2010, 07:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
Here you go As I have said before this is a file sent from a dealer in Korea running a custom race map and a custom catless exhaust system, it is not an off the shelf VT2-600 kit. This dyno was not taken on our dyno with any of our company cars. We do not claim these numbers are typical of the VT2-600 but the dyno was shared to show the capabilities of the kit on pump 93 octane fuel @ 6.5 psi. A more realistic number for a VT2-600 on pump 93 would be around 510-520 whp SAE.
There we go, much better, now some people won't be thinking that you are pushing almost 640 wheel

Seems right in line with other results with race gas and exhaust...

What gas and what fuel btw? Seems cars with the same boost and similar exhaust setups are hitting similar numbers, as it should be.
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      01-17-2010, 07:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectify View Post
There we go, much better, now some people won't be thinking that you are pushing almost 640 wheel

Seems right in line with other results with race gas and exhaust...

What gas and what fuel btw? Seems cars with the same boost and similar exhaust setups are hitting similar numbers, as it should be.
This car we were told was running 98 RON during dyno testing. I have no idea the quality of fuel used in Korea so it is hard to say how it rates to US 93.
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      01-17-2010, 07:11 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
This car we were told was running 98 RON during dyno testing. I have no idea the quality of fuel used in Korea so it is hard to say how it rates to US 93.
Well, you did the tune, didn't you? So you had to have some idea as to the quality you would be tuning for, how much boost?
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      01-17-2010, 07:17 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rectify View Post
Well, you did the tune, didn't you? So you had to have some idea as to the quality you would be tuning for, how much boost?
The tune is for 93 octane this car runs 6.5 psi. The quality of fuel varies in different regions. This file is used for pushing the limits of the kit with most of the safety margins removed. It is the file we use on the GS race car.
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      01-17-2010, 07:27 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
The tune is for 93 octane this car runs 6.5 psi. The quality of fuel varies in different regions. This file is used for pushing the limits of the kit with most of the safety margins removed. It is the file we use on the GS race car.
Glad to have all the details and the proper context now, thank you!
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      01-17-2010, 07:32 PM   #58
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Quote:
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Josh, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the comments. The comments have absolutely no bias in them whatsoever.



Here's my proposal. Gintani guys, set your boost to 5.5 PSI. ESS guys, are already set at 5.5 PSI. Show up on March 6th at the Mojave Mile and shoot it out. http://www.mojavemile.com. I may be out of town, but I may have a driver for the stroker that weekend. If I do, the stroker will be there as well.

The Mojave Mile is far more meaningful test than 12 seconds on a drag strip. Settle it there...not here.



You and I have had this discussion before. You know the transmission cooler was designed for the DCT, not the 6MT. The 6MT has 1/2 the transmission cooler blocked, whereas the DCT utilizes the entire cooler.



Unless you're doing the dyno below 60 degrees farenheit, SAE correction will only ADD power, not take away from it. Therefore, posting uncorrected values measured above 60 degrees will be UNDERSTATED values, not overstated as you seem to be assuming. I can send you a PDF of the entire SAE 1349 specification if you want to wade through the math and see for yourself. Or you can just download my last dyno spreadsheet and start playing with temperature and see how the correction factor changes. So if ESS were to publish corrected figures, they would most certainly be higher than uncorrected figures (assuming they were made above 60 degrees farenheit).



There have been one or two posted already. The only reason they don't appear in the DynoDB is because I didn't have a list of all of the mods on the car (gasoline octane, exhaust, pulley, other mods, etc.).



My gosh, the GS Bilder car ran an entire race season. Why is that always ignored in this discussion as if it had never occurred?
An ESS apologist, I wonder why?

The mile is not far more meaningful there is a far smaller base to compare against not to mention it is far more dangerous.

The transmission cooler is the exact same part number. You are referring to how the duct is set up and it has been estabalished the cooler is not good enough as it is set up. It does not matter how much plastic there is or not, it is not up to par and they simply shared the part from the manual, period. How else do you explain stock cars going into limp mode? We all do realize the manual came first, BMW had a chance to change the design, they didn't, they shared it.

Weird, the uncorrected dyno is a lot lower, is it not? The uncorrected dyno is more in line with other uncorrected dyno's posted, isn't it?

There have been one or two posted from customer cars on invdividual dyno's? Please, post the links, lets see these 630 wheel numbers

The GS Bilder car is not ignored, it is posted quite often, you seemed to bring it up now. What would you like to discuss about it? How it has the support of a race team? How it is a custom one off but others are faulted for doing things that are not cookie cutter and more complex? How it is not what most customers will be doing? This one-sided interpretation is a bit depressing.
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      01-17-2010, 07:54 PM   #59
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way too early to judge, there are only a very few customer cars out there

and a lot of current customers have sponsorship ties to vendors, which means you need to take whatever they say with a very big grain of salt.

Also the HKS/AA kit is not yet in production, nor is VF. VF's reputation has taken a beating lately, but my point is that two major players have yet to even release their kits, so it's a little early to say which is the best.
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      01-17-2010, 08:05 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpuna View Post
Eugene you need to learn how to use the search feature on youtube. You keep saying there are no vids of the ESS kit but yet I have had no problem finding lots of ESS E9X vids. There are tons of vids of the GS race car that ran all of last race season with the VT2 kit on it and also did several drift events. There are two vids from two different customers who ran their ESS supercharged cars from 0-200+ MPH and also a video of Biglare racing a 750 HP stage 2.5 HPF car. I think these will give you an idea of how the kit performs and the GS race car videos will give you an idea of how the kit was tested before it was released to the public
sorry my bad! I did find 1 vid. of the ESS kit. But that was it. I will do some more searching for sure. Thanks for the heads up.
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      01-17-2010, 08:15 PM   #61
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So that there is no misunderstanding the GS car runs our off the shelf VT2-600 kit with slightly increased boost levels and our race tune software. Other then a smaller pulley and software that is more agressive then our production version the kit is exactly the same. Building a one off special kit for that car would not do us any good as the car was designed to R&D test the production hardware on a stock motor under extreme conditions.
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      01-17-2010, 08:19 PM   #62
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I wish my car was in the States for the shootout!!!!!!

I would love to join and maybe my engine won't blow!!!

But if it does!!!!! I am getting a Gintani kit for SURE
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      01-17-2010, 08:29 PM   #63
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Quote:
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way too early to judge, there are only a very few customer cars out there

and a lot of current customers have sponsorship ties to vendors, which means you need to take whatever they say with a very big grain of salt.

Also the HKS/AA kit is not yet in production, nor is VF. VF's reputation has taken a beating lately, but my point is that two major players have yet to even release their kits, so it's a little early to say which is the best.
True, but some people are not going to sit around waiting for VF to fix their problems or for AA to get it done.

It is not too early to compare performance.
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      01-17-2010, 08:33 PM   #64
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Quote:
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This deserved a separate response...



The Mojave Mile would be far safer than those Mexico runs you guys do, and the same speeds too. How could Mexico and canyon runs be "legit" comparisons but the Mojave Mile be too or "far more" dangerous? This year is the innaugural event for the Mojave Mile, so unless you guys show up, there will be no sample size to compare against.

Like I said previously, show up and prove it in Mojave. Don't try to prove it 12 seconds at a time on a drag strip, not in Mexico or canyons where you're putting other people at risk, not 60-130 on a freeway where innocent civilians, husbands, wives, and children can get killed. Everything you're asking for (except canyons) can be measured in the Mojave Mile.

Advocating Mexico runs, canyon runs, and 60-130 vBox runs on public roads and refusing to show up at the Mojove Mile -- is the epitome of being an apologist. It's just outright chicken-sh*t to demand all of this from your competitor, but refuse to do it yourself. The difference with the Mojave Mile -- is that it's safer and the results are much more scientifically accurate. Put the vBox in the car, make the run, and it's everything you've been demanding of your competition. After you layed out such a demanding challenge, it would be very telling if you refused to show up at the one place that would give you all of the results you've demanded.
At no point were runs mentioned and at no point did anyone say they were "legit," you just did that.

You don't seem to understand proving it on the drag strip is far more meaningfull, all the mile does it give you a terminal speed, big deal.

How is ESS going to prove at the mile that their DCT software can handle the power? I haven't seen any launch control videos or any attempts from a supercharged DCT car other than Gintani personally.

Plus, who are you to tell people what measure of performance they should use? If someone wants to run the 1/4 mile what are they supposed to do? Say they want to run the mile instead? Ask for mile events to be set up and get people out there? The 1/4 mile is the standard and provides ET and trap speed, not too many people care if their car can hit 190 in the mile but they do care if they can blow someone away in a shorter burst.

Sorry, but people prefer 1/4 mile and 60-130 times, perhaps you prefer the mile because the stroker has yet to eclipse bolt on cars both in roll on's and both in 1/4 mile races?
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      01-17-2010, 08:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
So that there is no misunderstanding the GS car runs our off the shelf VT2-600 kit with slightly increased boost levels and our race tune software. Other then a smaller pulley and software that is more agressive then our production version the kit is exactly the same. Building a one off special kit for that car would not do us any good as the car was designed to R&D test the production hardware on a stock motor under extreme conditions.
So the car is running with tuning and boost differences? The basic hardware is the same?

I think that goes for every kit on the market so far.
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      01-17-2010, 08:40 PM   #66
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You know I'll call it the way I see it. My interests in this thread are to 1) ensure that it doesn't get out of hand; 2) make sure the technical points are accurate. I don't care how many fans each company has.



...established by who? Certainly not established by BMW design engineers. A methonol injected, high PSI boosted FI kit on a car with DCT that ends up having overheating problems doesn't "establish" anything. Nor does a bunch of guys with early DCT software running around a track until they hit limp mode "establish" anything either.

If there really were such an "established" problem, then I'll be happy if somebody publishes the BMW SIB. I'd agree that would be ample evidence. Another piece of evidence would be a BMW recall on the transmission cooler on DCT-equipped cars. Until one or both of these things happen, I don't think anything's been "established" with any certainty. One or two cars on a race track isn't enough sampling size to "establish" anything.



That's exactly the point. You're complaining that they posted uncorrected figures -- as if they were inflated. They're not! They're actually understated (assuming they were made above 60 degrees farenheit).



The dyno charts appeared in the ESS thread. Just because Roman posted them, doesn't mean they didn't come from a customer. I think it's the same dyno chart posted above.



You layed out the challenge for race proven testing -- but ignored the GS car. It's the same thing Sticky did in previous threads. That's why the rebuttal keeps coming back -- because if you want track proven results, then look at the GS car and don't ignore it.
I'll have to call it the way I see it.

Hmm, I could have sworn I saw a video posted from Gintani showing launch control in use without any issues? I don't believe we have seen that from anyone else? Seems to me it has been "established" that your information is now out of date. Gintani has also established that they are willing to test on the strip, no one else has.

The corrected dyno charts show a sizable difference, that is the whole point, why did you miss it? Seems that when the dyno numbers are corrected they are putting out what they should be... why post the uncorrected chart? Maybe because it shows higher peak figures? If Roman posted the charts that means they are hand picked and come from his own dyno. When an owner independent of Roman or having Roman post a chart posts, let me know. The figures will not match 630 wheel, I can tell you that.

The GS car is overseas first of all and it is not like this is a regular customer vehicle. So you are bringing it up for what purpose? It has a different pulley and different tuning and is being built for a single purpose. It has far greater support from ESS and from having to be in race trim than anyone else. How is this being ignored? The GS car has been mentioned several times, are you trying to make a point here? If so, what is it?
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