BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-05-2010, 12:58 AM   #23
rzm3
Moderator
rzm3's Avatar
224
Rep
4,603
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (14)

The M3 and BS are in completely different leagues... so there is no real need to compare using just numbers and specs.

The M3 is a mass-produced, luxury, balanced sports coupe.

The BS is a limited-production (350 sold in US I think), loud (visual and aural) exotic.

Technically speaking the M3 (with its high-revving V8, DCT, balanced chassis, etc...) is probably much more brilliant vs. the BS...

...the BS, though not perfect, has a personality unmatched by any M.

Both are brilliant, so it really depends on what you want

(If it weren't for the crappy tranny -- refusing to downshift, no blipping, slow gear changes -- I would have bought a BS, which is only around $80k now for a used)
__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete

Last edited by rzm3; 01-05-2010 at 01:15 AM.
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 01:08 AM   #24
rzm3
Moderator
rzm3's Avatar
224
Rep
4,603
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (14)

Here's Clarkson's take.

[u2b]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mBeg197YQuE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mBeg197YQuE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/u2b]
__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 02:53 AM   #25
brava09
Captain
brava09's Avatar
12
Rep
723
Posts

 
Drives: '11 Audi RS5
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Europe

iTrader: (0)

__________________
11 Audi RS5 Misano Red
08 E92 M3 Jerez Black 6MT--sold
08 E92 335i 6MT traded in for M3
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 09:54 AM   #26
GTM
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
GTM's Avatar
United_States
46
Rep
1,034
Posts


 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Crystal Lake, IL

iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to GTM Send a message via MSN to GTM
btw euro-spec Black series aredifferent than US spec.

Lighter seats, CF door inserts...
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 01:37 PM   #27
CATCH_M3
Lieutenant
19
Rep
466
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 BMW M3
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (1)

that is one of my favorite clarkson reviews!
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 01:41 PM   #28
SUB-ZERO
Lieutenant Colonel
SUB-ZERO's Avatar
26
Rep
1,562
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 997TT Arctic Silver
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: VA

iTrader: (0)

That's one bad Merc!
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 01:45 PM   #29
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwrjs View Post
well in a recent us road test the m3 was quicker in a straight line as well as on the track
There is no frickin way an M3 is faster than a CLK63 Black Series in a straight line. I owned one for a year and a half.
But the track times don't surprise me. The automatic ruined a great car and its the reason I opted to keep my GTR instead of my Black.
__________________
-2011 Cayenne Turbo
-2012 Cayenne Turbo
-2013 VelociRaptor 600
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 01:48 PM   #30
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
DLSJ5's Avatar
United_States
89
Rep
3,497
Posts

 
Drives: 08 E92 DCT M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to DLSJ5
Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
There is no frickin way an M3 is faster than a CLK63 Black Series in a straight line. I owned one for a year and a half.
Stock for stock, I'd say you're probably right, but if the M3 has all the simple bolt ons and is DCT as well, then the M3 is faster from personal experience.
__________________
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 01:51 PM   #31
CATCH_M3
Lieutenant
19
Rep
466
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 BMW M3
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Stock for stock, I'd say you're probably right, but if the M3 has all the simple bolt ons and is DCT as well, then the M3 is faster from personal experience.
Haha are you the guy (w/o backseats) in the video that took on that CLK-Black.
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2010, 02:24 PM   #32
MikeG_C63_AMG
First Lieutenant
MikeG_C63_AMG's Avatar
3
Rep
378
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 Eurocharged C63 AMG
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hoboken,NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Stock for stock, I'd say you're probably right, but if the M3 has all the simple bolt ons and is DCT as well, then the M3 is faster from personal experience.
I would say your car is FAR FAR AWAY FROM STOCK
Appreciate 0
      01-09-2010, 02:51 PM   #33
alms21
Captain
United_States
18
Rep
864
Posts

 
Drives: '10 GT-R
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Frederick, MD/Sarasota, FL

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
The M3 and BS are in completely different leagues... so there is no real need to compare using just numbers and specs.

The M3 is a mass-produced, luxury, balanced sports coupe.

The BS is a limited-production (350 sold in US I think), loud (visual and aural) exotic.

Technically speaking the M3 (with its high-revving V8, DCT, balanced chassis, etc...) is probably much more brilliant vs. the BS...

...the BS, though not perfect, has a personality unmatched by any M.

Both are brilliant, so it really depends on what you want

(If it weren't for the crappy tranny -- refusing to downshift, no blipping, slow gear changes -- I would have bought a BS, which is only around $80k now for a used)
I agree 100%. The BS is one bad ass ride. Tony Kanaan's is absolutely frickin gorgeous.
__________________
2010 GT-R (gone)
2006 BMW X5; '04 Toyota 4runner LTD
Past: '14 Audi S5; '11 M3; '07 Porsche 997 Turbo; '09 E92 M3, '11 GS Vette; E46M3; C6Z06; E60M5; '09 335; '06 CaymanS; Porsche 996 Turbo; Porsche 997S
Appreciate 0
      01-09-2010, 11:27 PM   #34
adc
Brigadier General
53
Rep
4,151
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

Dollar for dollar - or should I say Euro for Euro - the M3 GTS would absolutely murder the BS on a racetrack - any racetrack.

The level to which the BS is modified over a regular CLK63 is similar to the difference between the M3 GTS and the regular M3. Even the prices in Europe of the GTS and BS are similar I think.

So while I am impressed that MB was able to certify and import it into the US, respect them for their intention and 80% of the execution (admiration stops at the transmission) and while I would definitely admire one if I saw it down the road (and probably would open my window to hear that sound), I am not at all impressed with it as a technical achievement.

Other makers do it much better.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2010, 04:04 PM   #35
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Dollar for dollar - or should I say Euro for Euro - the M3 GTS would absolutely murder the BS on a racetrack - any racetrack.

The level to which the BS is modified over a regular CLK63 is similar to the difference between the M3 GTS and the regular M3. Even the prices in Europe of the GTS and BS are similar I think.

So while I am impressed that MB was able to certify and import it into the US, respect them for their intention and 80% of the execution (admiration stops at the transmission) and while I would definitely admire one if I saw it down the road (and probably would open my window to hear that sound), I am not at all impressed with it as a technical achievement.

Other makers do it much better.
So then you're not impressed with the M3 GTS as a technical acheivement either? Its arrival is over two years past the CLK63 Black Series and is more expensive.
The Black was a really good sports caar that could have been great if MB hadn't used an automatic.
__________________
-2011 Cayenne Turbo
-2012 Cayenne Turbo
-2013 VelociRaptor 600
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2010, 07:16 PM   #36
adc
Brigadier General
53
Rep
4,151
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
So then you're not impressed with the M3 GTS as a technical acheivement either? Its arrival is over two years past the CLK63 Black Series and is more expensive.
The Black ended up being heavier than the car it's based on, despite numerous weight saving measures. It also retains the stupid automatic transmission. It's an engine looking for a decent chassis. So no, not impressed.

The GTS is significantly lighter than the car it's based on, suspension works better etc. - in other words it takes the entire M3 to another level. So, a great achievement.

Same as Porsche did with the GT3. Another level, everything they put in actually works for the same purpose.

These cars are the whole package.

Quote:
The Black was a really good sports caar that could have been great if MB hadn't used an automatic.
Yes, and if it were 500lbs lighter. Would have been amazing, but isn't.


Would I drive one if I had the chance? Hell yes. Would I buy one if I had 80 grand laying around? Hell no.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2010, 10:35 PM   #37
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The Black ended up being heavier than the car it's based on, despite numerous weight saving measures. It also retains the stupid automatic transmission. It's an engine looking for a decent chassis. So no, not impressed.

The GTS is significantly lighter than the car it's based on, suspension works better etc. - in other words it takes the entire M3 to another level. So, a great achievement.

Same as Porsche did with the GT3. Another level, everything they put in actually works for the same purpose.

These cars are the whole package.



Yes, and if it were 500lbs lighter. Would have been amazing, but isn't.


Would I drive one if I had the chance? Hell yes. Would I buy one if I had 80 grand laying around? Hell no.



Well you've never driven one so I'm not surprised. Practically every single person that's reviewed the Black gave it a positive review. The only gripe was the tranny.And given the fact I have put 14000 miles on one I can tell you its an outstanding vehicle (less the tranny). And if it didn't have the slushbox the standard M3 wouldn't stand a chance at a track and the GTS would struggle.
The GTS is almost three years behind the Black so I don't know how you could be impressed?
And plus it would lose to a $80k Nissan(thats as heavy as the CLK63BS) too.
Appreciate 0
      01-10-2010, 11:44 PM   #38
adc
Brigadier General
53
Rep
4,151
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
And plus it would lose to a $80k Nissan(thats as heavy as the CLK63BS) too.
A GT3 would loose too - and I'd still pick a GT3 over the GTR, if I had the budget. Scratch that - I doubt I'd get anything faster than the M3 for daily driving, or even track work. It's pointless for daily driving, and at the track I always try to get the most I can out of a car. Starting from the M3 level onwards, GTS, GT3, GTR and the like, these cars are way too fast for the average driver (me) and for their lack of safety features (compared to racing safety standards).

Should something go wrong, it would go terribly wrong. Again, that's just me. I don't care for bragging rights and incredibly awesome acceleration. I mean, I would not necessarily mind a car more tactile than the M3 to explore on track, but I'd probably go the Elise/Exige way, not the HP way.

Everybody has their own preferences, you like the Black and it does absolutely nothing for me.
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2010, 12:01 AM   #39
Eugene-TAIWAN
Brigadier General
Eugene-TAIWAN's Avatar
Taiwan
79
Rep
3,113
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan

iTrader: (4)

the black is nice but I was also surprised the M3 wasn't faster on the track.
__________________

Past: Gintani stage3 M3
present: Porsche 993RWB, 964RS America,996 cupcar, 964 turbo 3.6, 991C4S, i3 in September
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2010, 01:11 AM   #40
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
A GT3 would loose too - and I'd still pick a GT3 over the GTR, if I had the budget. Scratch that - I doubt I'd get anything faster than the M3 for daily driving, or even track work. It's pointless for daily driving, and at the track I always try to get the most I can out of a car. Starting from the M3 level onwards, GTS, GT3, GTR and the like, these cars are way too fast for the average driver (me) and for their lack of safety features (compared to racing safety standards).

Should something go wrong, it would go terribly wrong. Again, that's just me. I don't care for bragging rights and incredibly awesome acceleration. I mean, I would not necessarily mind a car more tactile than the M3 to explore on track, but I'd probably go the Elise/Exige way, not the HP way.

Everybody has their own preferences, you like the Black and it does absolutely nothing for me.



You could really argue an M3 is way too fast for a DD too. If that's all you're looking for sports cars are silly. But if you want the best mix of DD and performance an M3 is hard to beat. I would say a GTR is better in practically every category though but this thread isn't about that.
Frankly I don't get why you're so down on the Merc? The tranny sucks but other than that its a great sports car. In fact its one of the best looking cars of the last 5 years. And it's noise is pure adrenaline.
__________________
-2011 Cayenne Turbo
-2012 Cayenne Turbo
-2013 VelociRaptor 600
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2010, 10:44 AM   #41
graider
Colonel
graider's Avatar
26
Rep
2,408
Posts

 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

iTrader: (0)

I like the black. but at the price range, it's a very hard choice deciding between this and the gt3/rs. gt3 is a no brainer.

between the black and e92 m3. It is also a hard choice although the m3 is substantially cheaper and does not have the respect compare to the black. if you have another car and the black for joy ride or weekend warrior, then black over m3. if you can only have 1 car, m3. look wise, the black is very aggressive but the m3 holds it own IMO.
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2010, 11:04 AM   #42
BigGuyM3
BBM Pin# 295E3EA9
BigGuyM3's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
267
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 BMW M3
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

question

I think both are very nice cars, but I got few questions

Is the CLK 63 AMG Black Series and upgrade to the CLK 63 AMG?
What’s the price of the Black Series,
and if this is the racing version shouldn’t the Black Series compete against the M3 GTS,

I personally would have to pick the M3, the merc is a very nice car, but I like the MT much better, and the sport feel of the BMW, Merc is more geared towards luxuary, in my opinion, what you guys think?
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2010, 11:23 AM   #43
991GT3
Captain
991GT3's Avatar
19
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: Cayenne Turbo
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North Dakota

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArthurA View Post
I think both are very nice cars, but I got few questions

Is the CLK 63 AMG Black Series and upgrade to the CLK 63 AMG?
What’s the price of the Black Series,
and if this is the racing version shouldn’t the Black Series compete against the M3 GTS,

I personally would have to pick the M3, the merc is a very nice car, but I like the MT much better, and the sport feel of the BMW, Merc is more geared towards luxuary, in my opinion, what you guys think?


The CLK63 Black Series was a low production one-off car Mercedes built in model year 2008. There were only about 500 built. They listed at $138,500 for a naturally aspirated 6.2 liter AMG engined car with significant performance modifications. I owned one for a year and a half and picked it over a 997 Turbo and an R8 and dumped an M6 for it. That said I dumped the Black for my GTR.
__________________
-2011 Cayenne Turbo
-2012 Cayenne Turbo
-2013 VelociRaptor 600
Appreciate 0
      01-11-2010, 11:29 AM   #44
adc
Brigadier General
53
Rep
4,151
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
You could really argue an M3 is way too fast for a DD too. If that's all you're looking for sports cars are silly. But if you want the best mix of DD and performance an M3 is hard to beat.
It is a little too fast, in the sense that when I get on it, the passengers as well as other drivers on the road get properly frightened. So basically there are few instances when I can exploit it. In this sense, it's too fast. Also at the track I'm sure I'll see speeds north of 150 mph - we'll see how that works out.

The car I really want isn't built yet, but might be next year. I had my eyes set on a 135i, but was underwhelmed by its suspension, open diff, stupid&narrow runflats and reliability issues. To address them properly, I would need to spend upwards of $10k in upgrades, leaving me with a $50k 1 series with potential warranty problems.

Which is why I ended up with the M3, it's such a balanced package (well except for the brakes). Truly impossible to beat, especially at my price point of $50k.

But next year the rumor is that M is coming out with a car based on the 1 series - and I will be extremely tempted to trade my M3 in, if that car is any good. Just can't beat small weight and small size.

Quote:
I would say a GTR is better in practically every category though but this thread isn't about that.
No, it isn't - faster certainly, but not better in some key categories of mine. For one thing, it costs $30k more than my M3, has less practicality (rear seats, 2 doors), a much harsher ride and extremely questionable warranty policies. Also, there is no manual tranny option which for me is the deal killer.

Quote:
Frankly I don't get why you're so down on the Merc? The tranny sucks but other than that its a great sports car. In fact its one of the best looking cars of the last 5 years. And it's noise is pure adrenaline.
Very true, the Black is gorgeous to look at and listen to, and would be fun to drive no doubt. Sort of like a one night stand really. But I can get pure adrenaline noise in my M3 with an aftermarket exhaust and I like the M3 looks as well, so it's a draw. Add to that that the M3 is likely to cost much less to maintain over time and it certainly costs much less to buy in the first place.

And as I've said, the bottom line is no manual tranny = no sale for me. It all has to do with the entertainment and involvement factor...


Basically, I'm just offering a different perspective. It's ok to like another car, be it the Black, the GTR or whatever else. What's good for me may not be good for someone else, and vice-versa.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST