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      12-07-2009, 02:25 PM   #1
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Fabspeed CEL workaround

just got these in from fabspeed.



these are suppose to push the 2nd 02's further down.
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      12-07-2009, 02:33 PM   #2
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Interesting... Keep us posted on how they work. So far I'm at 110 miles since my first CEL reset. If it happens again, I'll be contacting Fabspeed to try this.
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      12-07-2009, 02:33 PM   #3
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Thanks for posting a pic. I'll be anxious to hear if they work for you! Any idea when you will have a chance to install them?
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      12-07-2009, 02:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novablackm3 View Post
just got these in from fabspeed.

these are suppose to push the 2nd 02's further down.
Actually, it just takes the O2s out of the stream. SuperSprint's tried this without much success on other platforms, let us know how it works in your case.
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      12-07-2009, 02:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Actually, it just takes the O2s out of the stream. SuperSprint's tried this without much success on other platforms, let us know how it works in your case.
hmm does that mean it will sit OUTSIDE of the pipe?
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      12-07-2009, 02:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by novablackm3 View Post
hmm does that mean it will sit OUTSIDE of the pipe?
Outside of the exhaust stream.
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      12-07-2009, 04:01 PM   #7
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I think this has been already tried. It works on some other cars but doesn't seem to work on the M3. But who knows, I guess we'll find out.
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      12-07-2009, 05:05 PM   #8
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Very very interesting... This might do the trick to eliminate the CEL on the very low percentage of cars that are getting the error with the Fabspeed setup. Most of them don't throw the CEL at all or do it on occasion.

Keep us updated!
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      12-07-2009, 05:23 PM   #9
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This will not work! We tried kind of these 6 month ago with the Akra - they do not work on US spec cars!
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      12-07-2009, 05:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkcaptain View Post
This will not work! We tried kind of these 6 month ago with the Akra - they do not work on US spec cars!
This is not necessarially true. The light triggering is simply a function of precat 02 voltages versus post cat 02 voltages.

So by moving the sensors out of stream, you are changing the voltages on the post cat 02 sensors that is being reported to the DME for comparison with the voltages pre cat (to check for cat efficiency). If these devices change the location of the reading, they will surely change the voltages that are being compared.

So it's a question of whether these devices will change the voltages enough to not be out of range (which will trigger the light). Since the fabspeed cats alone are on the fence of throwing a CEL (most of them do not), this might be the extra edge needed for those with the CEL and stock software. The key here is that Fabspeed is only setup I've seen that will not always throw the light using stock software.

Regardless, you shouldn't be running modified cats without proper software tuning anyway!
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      12-07-2009, 05:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
This is not necessarially true. The light triggering is simply a function of precat 02 voltages versus post cat 02 voltages.

So by moving the sensors out of stream, you are changing the voltages on the post cat 02 sensors that is being reported to the DME for comparison with the voltages pre cat (to check for cat efficiency). If these devices change the location of the reading, they will surely change the voltages that are being compared.

So it's a question of whether these devices will change the voltages enough to not be out of range (which will trigger the light). Since the fabspeed cats alone are on the fence of throwing a CEL (most of them do not), this might be the extra edge needed for those with the CEL and stock software. The key here is that Fabspeed is only setup I've seen that will not always throw the light using stock software.

Regardless, you shouldn't be running modified cats without proper software tuning anyway!
I do agree, but it is not a long term solution! With our Euro spec cars with Akra it took as long as 12.000km to trow CEL. US spec less than 200 mls.
The only reliable solution is modified software which also provides the most power gain of an exhaust system!
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      12-07-2009, 07:38 PM   #12
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Mike,
Maybe you are right, but I had personally installed a set of those, similar not exact same pair, on mine and tested for a thousand miles. It took the car 400+ miles to get all readiness tests ready, they jerked the car in WOT M-Mode because the sensors weren't picking up anything thus the car freaked out on me, and @ 1000 miles mark since installation, the CEL's came back. Like I said, some people might be lucky with these, but I just want to point out what to expect if you weren't so lucky like me.
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      12-07-2009, 08:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
Regardless, you shouldn't be running modified cats without proper software tuning anyway!
Mike - I certainly appreciate you chiming in. Can you further elaborate on this? Certainly the car won't run optimally, but do you think there is actual danger in running modified cats without tuning?
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      12-07-2009, 08:20 PM   #14
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hmm i think the statement of low # of fab speed cel is incorrect as it JUST started getting cold. as it gets colder i suspect more CEL's.

Jeremy @ fabspeed indeed confirmed it was the cold weather as well. The ECU must be doing something funny with the cold air.

Yes the ECU flash will fix but you'll also fail inspection..
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      12-07-2009, 08:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novablackm3 View Post

Yes the ECU flash will fix but you'll also fail inspection..
How would they even know? If a BMW dealer can't tell then some mope with a code scanner at the emissions station sure isn't going to be able to tell.
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      12-07-2009, 08:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
How would they even know? If a BMW dealer can't tell then some mope with a code scanner at the emissions station sure isn't going to be able to tell.
oh you can tell trust me. it'll say 2ndary o2 not being read.

bmw prob can't tell that the air/fuel ratio has been messed w/ but o2 sensor check it'll show.

also i'm concerned that if we have the 2ndary cats all exposed in the open it'll be suspectable to premature failure (30~50k) as its not being heated...
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      12-07-2009, 08:46 PM   #17
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wow keep talkin.... I wish people would get more discusion on this topic!!! I wonder? How dinan program there software? Is it safe??
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      12-07-2009, 09:28 PM   #18
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I think what Dinan does is the same as everybody else, turning the rear O2s off, thus it states for offroad use only.
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      12-07-2009, 11:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Mike - I certainly appreciate you chiming in. Can you further elaborate on this? Certainly the car won't run optimally, but do you think there is actual danger in running modified cats without tuning?
No I do not think that it is dangerous. However, it will more than likely make the cars A/F ratio change from it's target, which means that the car isn't performing as optimally as it could be. The primary use of the secondary 02 sensors is to check emissions. The pre cat 02 sensors are the ones that have primary control over changing mixtures to come as close to lamda as possible.

It's important to have a software tune if the factory cats are removed or replaced with HFC's. Any other exhaust modification after the cats is of no consequence in relation to DME tuning.
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      12-07-2009, 11:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
How would they even know? If a BMW dealer can't tell then some mope with a code scanner at the emissions station sure isn't going to be able to tell.
They will know if/by:

#1) The car does not past OBD-II readyness. This is achieved after a number of specific circumstances are met during driving. I can explain this more in depth if anyone is interested.

#2) They look under the car and see that the exhaust has been modified or if they see straight pipes where cats should have been

#3) The tail pipe sniffer test - you MIGHT pass with HFC's. It's possible, depending on the HFC.

#4) Smell

#5) Check engine light is on because car does not have "off-road" software.
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      12-08-2009, 12:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
No I do not think that it is dangerous. However, it will more than likely make the cars A/F ratio change from it's target, which means that the car isn't performing as optimally as it could be. The primary use of the secondary 02 sensors is to check emissions. The pre cat 02 sensors are the ones that have primary control over changing mixtures to come as close to lamda as possible.

It's important to have a software tune if the factory cats are removed or replaced with HFC's. Any other exhaust modification after the cats is of no consequence in relation to DME tuning.
Thanks for the insight Mike! I've been doing some fuel trim monitoring in a separate thread and there is no question that the ECU has to make some serious adjustments to attempt to hit the target AFRs. Although, it does appear to be adjusting the LTFT accordingly and I don't generally see large corrections in STFT. I need to do more logging to feel 100% confident in that statement : ) Unfortunately, the program I'm using is buggy as hell and not BMW-specific, so I'm limited in what I can see and log. I understand there are more BMW fuel trims not exposed via OBD-II.

I'm sure an experienced tuner, such as yourself, could make this thing perform better, and at specific AFRs, but I just do not want to screw with the stock programing; at least not until I'm totally out of warranty. If the stock programming can get close, that is good enough for me. I'm also kicking around the idea of putting the stock cats back on....decisions, decisions...
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