BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Racewerkz Engineering
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-07-2009, 01:45 PM   #1
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,641
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
E9x M3 Houston GB Dyno Charts

Hi everyone.

Please find below the dynocharts from the trip that Jeremy and I took to Houston TX. We had great success in our tuning endeavours there and I'd like to thank everyone who made the trip possible. I wanted to share some of the dynos with the forum to show the power increases achieved with our tune. Please email or call me if you have any questions - I am happy to help out.

Thanks,
Mike Benvo

PS: I have also included Powertrips dyno (AA vs Stock vs Our Dyno Tune) for reference. Also,on QTR M3's dyno chart, the baseline is AA software. I am not sure which revision he had, I think it was 1.5. Will have to clairfy with him. Dyno Charts in Order are: Powertrip, Nawaaz, QTRM3 (AA Baseline), Tinpot, TLud, and TMX32B.

I can be reached at 323-375-4269.
Attached Images
      
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 02:36 PM   #2
Omar@ActiveAutowerke
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami

Posts: 1,783
iTrader: (1)

It was NOT 1.5

wow... Standup stuff Mike.
Omar@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 02:43 PM   #3
SUB-ZERO
Lieutenant Colonel
 
SUB-ZERO's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 997TT Arctic Silver
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: VA

Posts: 1,562
iTrader: (0)

How come the black line (AA Tune) shows lower numbers than the stock line (green)? Is that right?
SUB-ZERO is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 02:45 PM   #4
Omar@ActiveAutowerke
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami

Posts: 1,783
iTrader: (1)

Good marketing, with poor taste. My $.02.
Omar@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 02:49 PM   #5
powertrip
Scared money don't make money.
 
powertrip's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Irvine, CA

Posts: 1,458
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
The AA tune wasn't holding the throttle open all the way at redline. I've got several dynos showing this same behavior with the AA tune. Powerchip's tune is head and shoulders above AA in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
How come the black line (AA Tune) shows lower numbers than the stock line (green)? Is that right?
__________________
2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather
OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS
HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
powertrip is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 02:50 PM   #6
powertrip
Scared money don't make money.
 
powertrip's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Irvine, CA

Posts: 1,458
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
Never heard anything back from you when I complained about my tune . Very poor taste...just my $.02 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Good marketing, with poor taste. My $.02.
__________________
2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather
OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS
HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
powertrip is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 02:53 PM   #7
Omar@ActiveAutowerke
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami

Posts: 1,783
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
Never heard anything back from you when I complained about my tune . Very poor taste...just my $.02 .
Dont' want to get into this and I am not here to bad mouth you or any vendor. I will continue to let our software speak for itself.

Best,
Omar@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 03:04 PM   #8
Omar@ActiveAutowerke
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami

Posts: 1,783
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
The AA tune wasn't holding the throttle open all the way at redline. I've got several dynos showing this same behavior with the AA tune. Powerchip's tune is head and shoulders above AA in my opinion.
This is correct. You would NOT want to do this because you will void the warranty.

FYI, the redline is not controlled by the throttle. It is controlled by gearbox temp, oil temp, and water temp to name a few things.

The throttles begin closing early to make sure you do not 'over shoot' the redline. If you do this, your drivetrain AND powertrain warranty will immediately be voided.... that goes for cars in the US and overseas. On NA cars this is one of the things the ECU monitors and records highest level.

Sooo hypothetically speaking... if you were to purchase a tune with the THROTTLE OPEN ALL THE WAY AT REDLINE this would definitely cause your car to 'over shoot' the redline resulting in stored data showing you passed your rev limiter , resulting in a loss in your warranty. The 'soft cut' is there for a reason.

Now voiding your customers warranty after selling software my friend, that is poor taste.

Let me know if you have any other questions on how the DME in this car works...

edit: you guys can search on here for guys who have had warranty issues for overshooting the rev limiter...
Omar@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 03:15 PM   #9
Alias
dork
 
Alias's Avatar
 
Drives: //M
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: so cal

Posts: 478
iTrader: (3)

What difference does it make even if you dont pass the revlimiter? either way your warrenty is voided cause you have a tune
Alias is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 03:15 PM   #10
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,641
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
It was NOT 1.5

wow... Standup stuff Mike.
Omar,

I am not intending on bashing you or your company. I know you guys have been around for a long time and have seen some of your quality products.

Perhaps you could let us know which version of your software was in that car? How about in powertrips car?

We have had significant gains on every car that we have retuned with your software. If you feel that this fact is misleading I am open to discussing it with you in a non-confrontational way.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 03:17 PM   #11
Omar@ActiveAutowerke
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Miami

Posts: 1,783
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alias View Post
What difference does it make even if you dont pass the revlimiter? either way your warrenty is voided cause you have a tune
Dealers in the US do not have the ability to read the file on your ECU, a.k.a. your tune. However they can monitor the stored data, ie. highest rpm limit.
Omar@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 03:20 PM   #12
Alias
dork
 
Alias's Avatar
 
Drives: //M
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: so cal

Posts: 478
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Dealers in the US do not have the ability to read the file on your ECU, a.k.a. your tune. However they can monitor the stored data, ie. highest rpm limit.
So if I decide to flash my car, as long as I request my rpm limiter and speed limiter are not raised and somethiong does go wrong the ycan only look at past data and i should be able to keep my warrrenty?
Alias is offline  
0
      12-07-2009, 03:24 PM   #13
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,641
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
This is correct. You would NOT want to do this because you will void the warranty.

FYI, the redline is not controlled by the throttle. It is controlled by gearbox temp, oil temp, and water temp to name a few things.

The throttles begin closing early to make sure you do not 'over shoot' the redline. If you do this, your drivetrain AND powertrain warranty will immediately be voided.... that goes for cars in the US and overseas. On NA cars this is one of the things the ECU monitors and records highest level.

Sooo hypothetically speaking... if you were to purchase a tune with the THROTTLE OPEN ALL THE WAY AT REDLINE this would definitely cause your car to 'over shoot' the redline resulting in stored data showing you passed your rev limiter , resulting in a loss in your warranty. The 'soft cut' is there for a reason.

Now voiding your customers warranty after selling software my friend, that is poor taste.

Let me know if you have any other questions on how the DME in this car works...

edit: you guys can search on here for guys who have had warranty issues for overshooting the rev limiter...
Omar,

As you know, there are a number of variables and sensor inputs that play into fueling, timing, vanos control, and redline on this car. The software in powertrips car does not remove the soft limiter nor the hard limiter. They are both in place and are functioning as intended. We would never alter anything in the software that would jeopardize the reliability or safety of the engine. The limits we have set in our software are safe and reliable.

I've spoken to many of your customers in the past which claim that your software pulls all the way to an increased redline, so I'm not sure why you think the redline changes are significantly different than in your software aside from the clear power and torque differences.

In first and second gear the car will cut injection sooner than the later gears to prevent an over shoot of redline. In the proceeding gears, the time spent in each gear while approaching redline is increased, which allows the rev limiter to kick in more "softly". We do not by any means allow our software to approach the hard revlimiter without hitting the soft limiter beforehand. This would lead to very jerky operation and the possibility for overshooting the redline which is not acceptable by anyone's means.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 03:57 PM   #14
FStop7
I like cars
 
FStop7's Avatar
 
Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Posts: 5,059
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
Never heard anything back from you when I complained about my tune . Very poor taste...just my $.02 .
They're too busy selling nasty rims.
__________________
FStop7 is offline   Vatican City State
0
      12-07-2009, 04:06 PM   #15
Jonmartin
Banned
 
Jonmartin's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angles (818)

Posts: 2,103
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to Jonmartin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Dont' want to get into this and I am not here to bad mouth you or any vendor. I will continue to let our software speak for itself.

Best,
No disrespect but its not speaking very well these days chap..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alias View Post
What difference does it make even if you dont pass the revlimiter? either way your warrenty is voided cause you have a tune
+1 Beat me to it. Either way u can potentially get screwed.
Jonmartin is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 04:12 PM   #16
Jonmartin
Banned
 
Jonmartin's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angles (818)

Posts: 2,103
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to Jonmartin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Dealers in the US do not have the ability to read the file on your ECU, a.k.a. your tune. However they can monitor the stored data, ie. highest rpm limit.
Afaik I know my rev limit wasn't raised number one. And I happen to know two different techs at two different BMW dealers that said if a problem is serious enough BMW NA Reps can read your car and tell its been flashed so that is false. And if its not that serious then you're basically in the same boat as everyone else.
Jonmartin is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 04:49 PM   #17
King Tut
Individual LSB - Rust Brown
 
King Tut's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 BMW M3 Coupe Individual
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gulf Breeze, FL

Posts: 1,306
iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to King Tut
Man there is some serious lack of class in this thread. Posting a dyno plot of an E46 M3 supercharged just to crap on AA and their off the shelf tune shows a complete lack of class. Also as I mentioned the first time that powertrip plot was posted, look at the run numbers. The AA flash is run 9, the fully tuned flash is 26 and then the stock run is 31. So they fully tuned this car and then flashed it back to stock and made a pull. You can't compare an off the shelf tune and a custom tune anyways.
__________________
King Tut
2012 BMW M3 Individual: lsb.ridedomain.com
1987 BMW 325is SpecE30: spece30.ridedomain.com
2009 BMW M3 Coupe: Sold e92.ridedomain.com
King Tut is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 04:58 PM   #18
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,641
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut View Post
Man there is some serious lack of class in this thread. Posting a dyno plot of an E46 M3 supercharged just to crap on AA and their off the shelf tune shows a complete lack of class. Also as I mentioned the first time that powertrip plot was posted, look at the run numbers. The AA flash is run 9, the fully tuned flash is 26 and then the stock run is 31. So they fully tuned this car and then flashed it back to stock and made a pull. You can't compare an off the shelf tune and a custom tune anyways.
I couldn't disagree more.

The dyno plot of the E46 Supercharged M3 retune was not posted to "crap on AA". It was simply shown to illustrate the power that we gained on that particular car which had AA software.

The issue about the run numbers being out of order is not relevant. The point is that on that particular car, the stock tune made considerably more power than the $600 "off the shelf special" than many people were given at Bimmerfest.

You are correct that you can not compare an off the shelf tune and a custom tune. However, a car should NEVER lose power over stock regardless of this fact. There is much more of a significant gain from stock to an "off the shelf tune" than from an "off the shelf tune" to a dyno tune.

Mike Benvo
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 05:02 PM   #19
Jonmartin
Banned
 
Jonmartin's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angles (818)

Posts: 2,103
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to Jonmartin
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Tut View Post
Man there is some serious lack of class in this thread. Posting a dyno plot of an E46 M3 supercharged just to crap on AA and their off the shelf tune shows a complete lack of class. Also as I mentioned the first time that powertrip plot was posted, look at the run numbers. The AA flash is run 9, the fully tuned flash is 26 and then the stock run is 31. So they fully tuned this car and then flashed it back to stock and made a pull. You can't compare an off the shelf tune and a custom tune anyways.
Well no one is stopping AA from posting up their own numbers and the way they do "custom" tunes they don't even touch the car so how much better is it gonna be? Especially in the case of the guy with the supercharger. And what about Powertrip he said he asked for help and got no response how's that for a lack of class? And what about the order of the runs? what difference does it make that it was flashed to stock AFTER.. It had its stock values replaced and didn't even get adapted back and still made more power then the AA tune that was most def fully adapated is that supposed to be unfair to AA somehow?
Jonmartin is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 05:21 PM   #20
Jonmartin
Banned
 
Jonmartin's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angles (818)

Posts: 2,103
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to Jonmartin
Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
You're assuming that adaptation always moves power up. Didn't that get established the first time powertrip's dyno results were discussed -- that clearing adaptation usually makes the dyno numbers larger because the ECU hasn't had time to adapt down to lower quality fuel?

If that's true -- and I say "IF" because there's still a big question about the effects of clearing adaptation -- then the order of the dyno runs is in fact crucial to the observed results during powertrip's dyno testing.
Like Mike said either way AT NO point should it be ok for the tuned car to make less then the stock car does that even make sense PG?
Jonmartin is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 05:23 PM   #21
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,641
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
You're assuming that adaptation always moves power up. Didn't that get established the first time powertrip's dyno results were discussed -- that clearing adaptation usually makes the dyno numbers larger because the ECU hasn't had time to adapt down to lower quality fuel?

If that's true -- and I say "IF" because there's still a big question about the effects of clearing adaptation -- then the order of the dyno runs is in fact crucial to the observed results during powertrip's dyno testing.
I've seen cars make power after clearing the adaptations, and I've seen cars lose power afterward.

It all comes down to how close the tuning parameters are in conjunction with the type and quality of gas being used.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
      12-07-2009, 05:27 PM   #22
powertrip
Scared money don't make money.
 
powertrip's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Irvine, CA

Posts: 1,458
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
Negative, I've dyno'd my car at Autowave several times. It was running the same that day as it did previously (within 1.5hp).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
You're assuming that adaptation always moves power up. Didn't that get established the first time powertrip's dyno results were discussed -- that clearing adaptation usually makes the dyno numbers larger because the ECU hasn't had time to adapt down to lower quality fuel?

If that's true -- and I say "IF" because there's still a big question about the effects of clearing adaptation -- then the order of the dyno runs is in fact crucial to the observed results during powertrip's dyno testing.
__________________
2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather
OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS
HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
powertrip is offline  
0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:07 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST