BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Racewerkz Engineering
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-07-2009, 01:10 AM   #1
Alekshop
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Alekshop's Avatar
 
Drives: E30 M3 l E92 M3 l F82 M4
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 2,300
iTrader: (8)

Send a message via Skype™ to Alekshop
Arrow GPS based Lap Timers

Is anybody on the boar using a GPS based Lap Timer ? I am looking for something small, not too expensive, easy to use and preferably a single unit system.

I came across this system " Starlane Athon " but would like to see if there is anything else out there.

Please post your suggestions, reviews or feedback
Alekshop is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2009, 09:40 AM   #2
Jaypod
Brigadier General
 
Jaypod's Avatar
 
Drives: Frozen M3, AM V8V, 991 GT3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

Posts: 4,950
iTrader: (7)

Do you have an Iphone cuz "there's an app for that", sorry couldnt resist.

There are actually a few apps for the iphone that have GPS based timing, I have tried a couple and was told about another that is really good, just cant remember the name. I can find out.
Jaypod is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2009, 04:29 PM   #3
BRDHNTR
Ground Pilot
 
BRDHNTR's Avatar
 
Drives: e92 BMW M3
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Waverly, PA

Posts: 549
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2002 M3  [0.00]
2008 e92 M3  [0.00]
It's always kind of shocked me how much GPS lap timers cost. I'm looking at buying the new one that chase cam develped and link it with one of their cameras. I thought about HD, but I'm not sure if the size of the file is worth it. Look for a used traqmate or something.
__________________
"The laws of physics cannot be repealed, even with DSC." - BMW Owner's Manual

BRDHNTR is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2009, 06:59 PM   #4
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
 
mastek's Avatar
 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 1,580
iTrader: (15)

If u have a DROID - there is an app called "trackmaster" - used it - very accurate and worked well for me.
mastek is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2009, 08:35 PM   #5
r53s65e90
8300
 
r53s65e90's Avatar
 
Drives: r53 s65e90
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Jose, CA

Posts: 534
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
Do you have an Iphone cuz "there's an app for that", sorry couldnt resist.

There are actually a few apps for the iphone that have GPS based timing, I have tried a couple and was told about another that is really good, just cant remember the name. I can find out.
Are you referring to Rev? I tried it (not on track, because I don't know how to mount the iphone safely yet). http://www.devtoaster.com/products/rev/

The lite version has a trackday timer, that basically times a lap every time you pass from roughly the same spot. The full version does other cool stuff too.
r53s65e90 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2009, 08:49 PM   #6
Jaypod
Brigadier General
 
Jaypod's Avatar
 
Drives: Frozen M3, AM V8V, 991 GT3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

Posts: 4,950
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
Are you referring to Rev? I tried it (not on track, because I don't know how to mount the iphone safely yet). http://www.devtoaster.com/products/rev/

The lite version has a trackday timer, that basically times a lap every time you pass from roughly the same spot. The full version does other cool stuff too.
I actually have Rev and Dash Command - both are able to connect to your car via OBDII (I have a kiwi wifi). I havent spent much time with it yet at the track, but at first glance Rev seems pretty good.

The one that was recommended to me is:

http://www.appstorehq.com/harry-slap...hone-30314/app

But I have no idea if its better or worse than Rev.
Jaypod is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2009, 10:44 PM   #7
cchan
Private
 
Drives: '12 F30 328i/'11 C2S/'04 GT3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 91
iTrader: (1)

The iPhone only samples GPS locations about 1x per second and the built-in antenna isn't the most accurate, so be aware of those limitations. Apps like Harry's give a good taste of data acquisition though, especially for the price. I have a G2X system, but if I was going the lowest cost route, that would be the one I would use.

Next step up, you can also look at the G-Tech, that looks similar in price range to the Starlane you mentioned. But it looks like you suction mount it to the windshield, which is a no-no in a lot of track groups, including BMWCCA.

Of course, if you want to spend more, it might be worth stepping up to a Traqmate or G2X system ($700-1k new).

But it all really depends on what your data collection and analysis goals are vs. cost. If you are very casual and only want to get an idea of how fast you went around a track, an iPhone app would probably do. But just a lap time won't really give you useful information about what you can improve on if that is a goal. If you are trying to analyze how well you are driving and where you can improve, I'd say that recording in-car video is a step better because it will show you what you were doing (i.e. steering inputs) and where you were on the track. Then the next step up is data aq so you can measure how much of the performance envelope (friction circle) you are using, not just a lap time.
__________________
Golden Gate BMWCCA - Car Control Clinics
'13 C4S/'12 328i/'04 GT3
Past: '09 M3 DCT/'03 M3 SMG/'95 M3... missing an E30 I suppose...
cchan is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-09-2009, 07:51 AM   #8
8INTO3=M
Private
 
Drives: M3 Coupe -- Interlagos Blue
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: MMMaryland

Posts: 87
iTrader: (1)

I have the Performance Box by Racelogic. Nice piece. Simple and fairly inexpensive at $500. Easy software to deconstruct hot laps.
8INTO3=M is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-09-2009, 02:04 PM   #9
doba_s
Major General
 
doba_s's Avatar
 
Drives: M3, 1M
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 6,101
iTrader: (26)

Send a message via Skype™ to doba_s
Quote:
Originally Posted by cchan View Post
The iPhone only samples GPS locations about 1x per second and the built-in antenna isn't the most accurate, so be aware of those limitations. Apps like Harry's give a good taste of data acquisition though, especially for the price. I have a G2X system, but if I was going the lowest cost route, that would be the one I would use.

Next step up, you can also look at the G-Tech, that looks similar in price range to the Starlane you mentioned. But it looks like you suction mount it to the windshield, which is a no-no in a lot of track groups, including BMWCCA.

Of course, if you want to spend more, it might be worth stepping up to a Traqmate or G2X system ($700-1k new).

But it all really depends on what your data collection and analysis goals are vs. cost. If you are very casual and only want to get an idea of how fast you went around a track, an iPhone app would probably do. But just a lap time won't really give you useful information about what you can improve on if that is a goal. If you are trying to analyze how well you are driving and where you can improve, I'd say that recording in-car video is a step better because it will show you what you were doing (i.e. steering inputs) and where you were on the track. Then the next step up is data aq so you can measure how much of the performance envelope (friction circle) you are using, not just a lap time.
thank you for the informative post
doba_s is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-09-2009, 02:31 PM   #10
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,201
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cchan View Post
The iPhone only samples GPS locations about 1x per second and the built-in antenna isn't the most accurate, so be aware of those limitations. Apps like Harry's give a good taste of data acquisition though, especially
I have not used any lap timing systems myself. However the above limitations seem like a deal breaker to me. Given a lot of mods can affect your car on the order of 1-2 seconds per minute a 1 Hz sample compounded by a position inaccuracy does not seem suitable to really get an accurate enough laptime. Of course the proof is in the pudding and a comparison between a "real" system and the iPhone based system would be great.
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-10-2009, 12:41 AM   #11
Subw00er
Bates '08 Interlagos Launch
 
Subw00er's Avatar
 
Drives: 08e92M, 03e46M
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NY

Posts: 1,202
iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to Subw00er
I've owned the g2x and traqmate. The traqmate is far easier to use and integrate with video, if thats your thing. But you know what, I still prefer my simple track-side IR beacon timer. Its a XT racing UltraLap and I love it - turn it on in the AM, it auto starts on track, and the display is big enough to glance at.
__________________
Custom Exhaust Project: Bates Valvetronic exhaust: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253661 -- Exhaust Mod pics in here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/40236795@N03/
DON'T BUY Race Ready Performance electronic cutout valves. Here's why: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...40#post9589740
Subw00er is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-10-2009, 12:55 AM   #12
QTRM3
Second Lieutenant
 
QTRM3's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 2008 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Dallas, Texas

Posts: 209
iTrader: (1)

That exactly what I was looking for recently .... thanks Alekshop for starting the thread.

Great info's thanks.
__________________

Remus Race Exhaust, AA X-Pipe Castles, AA SSK, AA ECU Tune, Evo Sport Pulleys, AFE Filter & Air Scope, HRE P40 20, H&R Springs ...
QTRM3 is offline   Qatar
0
Reply With Quote
      12-10-2009, 06:03 PM   #13
cchan
Private
 
Drives: '12 F30 328i/'11 C2S/'04 GT3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 91
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have not used any lap timing systems myself. However the above limitations seem like a deal breaker to me. Given a lot of mods can affect your car on the order of 1-2 seconds per minute a 1 Hz sample compounded by a position inaccuracy does not seem suitable to really get an accurate enough laptime. Of course the proof is in the pudding and a comparison between a "real" system and the iPhone based system would be great.
I would agree, to the extent that if one is trying to analyze a mod that affects lap times by only a second or less, the iPhone is obviously not accurate enough. But to be fair, I'd say calling it a "deal breaker" may be a bit extreme - I think if all you want is a ballpark lap time it is close enough, for a cost of only a few bucks. I think anyone who really needs high accuracy lap times is going to be getting to a pro/am racing level and thus probably has a data aq/racing budget that is going to support more than just the cost of an iPhone app!

I am curious too, and one of these days when I have some free time, plunk down a few bucks for the app and compare its accuracy to my G2X.
__________________
Golden Gate BMWCCA - Car Control Clinics
'13 C4S/'12 328i/'04 GT3
Past: '09 M3 DCT/'03 M3 SMG/'95 M3... missing an E30 I suppose...
cchan is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-18-2009, 09:18 PM   #14
VMRWheels
Lieutenant General
 
VMRWheels's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posts: 14,566
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2014 BMW F22  [0.00]
2013 BMW F06  [0.00]
2013 BMW F30  [0.00]
Are you particularly looking for GPS only? If not, take a look at the AIM beacon lap timer or AMB Blind Apex timer. The Blind Apex system goes off of the tracks AMB lap timer if they are using that. The AIM beacon has its own receiver in which you put at the start/finish of the track.

-Charles@VMRWheels
__________________

VMR | Wheels - Mitch A. | p. 714-442-7916 extension 107 | e. Mitch@velocitymotoring.com | ** VMR Winter Wheel/Tire Sale! **
VMRWheels is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-19-2009, 01:41 AM   #15
doba_s
Major General
 
doba_s's Avatar
 
Drives: M3, 1M
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Francisco

Posts: 6,101
iTrader: (26)

Send a message via Skype™ to doba_s
What I am looking for is a single unit system that doesn't require to run wires, have a multiple boxes here and there ...

iPhone apps are great but are not very accurate.

It looks like Starlane Athon is the winner! I'll order one for my car and report back
doba_s is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-19-2009, 10:57 AM   #16
jml
Captain
 
jml's Avatar
 
Drives: E90M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX

Posts: 984
iTrader: (2)

I really encourage you to consider something more advanced than a lap timer. Being able to see velocity vs. position on the track and multiple laps overlayed helped me a lot when learning to drive faster. It was probably had the biggest impact on helping me find the last couple of seconds on my fastest lap time, combined with video it's even better because it documents you experimentation with different lines and cadances. Driving to increase your lap times with a traditional timer is only going to frustrate you with only the lap time as an input. Most people get slower at first because they start deliberately driving "harder" vs. faster. When that happens, having the data to tell you what you are doing wrong is super helpful.

The G2X is the best unit I've tried, though the software is not as easy to use or feature rich as the Traqmate. The thing that makes it better is its accuracy and simplicity while in the car. I found lap times data comparable even spanning months, where as the traqmate is so sensitive to drift and clean GPS data that I found it nearly impossible to compare data week to week. I ended up selling my traqmate because it got to the point that the it was not worth my time trying to get all the data cleaned up and lined up while in between run sessions, plus the video integration still has some bugs that make it hard to align the video with the data unless you turn everything while on the track at speed. I'm a stickler for accuracy because 0.1 second difference in a corner is where you build improvements.

There are some new units coming out (AiM has the first one) that combine video capture with data capture in the same unit, more expensive, but hopefully a better overall experiance. I've spent a lot of time pouring through data over the past 5 years and using it as a tool to helpself and students. Let me know if there is any way I can help you.
jml is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-19-2009, 03:48 PM   #17
cchan
Private
 
Drives: '12 F30 328i/'11 C2S/'04 GT3
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 91
iTrader: (1)

The downside of a single contained unit is that the GPS antenna is inside the unit. That means that you will need to mount it close to the windshield for it to work, which could be a problem. All the other systems use an external antenna which allows more mounting options and is going to result in more accurate position data.

I looked up the Starlane, looks like it was designed for motorbikes - so no car roof to interfere with getting GPS signals. 5Hz GPS, which is better than the iPhone, but I think the G2X and Traqmate are all at least 10Hz. I also noticed the Starlane is GPS only, no accelerometers. Makes sense given bikes are going to be leaning. I think the other systems use the accelerometers to refine the GPS positioning data in between points. Overall the Starlane seems rather expensive to me, double the price of a traditional beacon lap timer (but compactness makes sense since you can't mount a lot on a bike).

The Starlane seems to be about the same price as a Traqmate basic from my quick search. With either, you will still need to run 12V power (or you're sticking on another 9V battery box for the Starlane). With the Traqmate, you are only really adding one more wire for the GPS antenna. Not a big deal IMHO especially given that you will be getting TONS more capabilities than what the Starlane appears to offer.

If you still get the Starlane, will be interested in seeing how it works.
__________________
Golden Gate BMWCCA - Car Control Clinics
'13 C4S/'12 328i/'04 GT3
Past: '09 M3 DCT/'03 M3 SMG/'95 M3... missing an E30 I suppose...
cchan is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #18
Groundhog
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: R-compounded
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West Coast

Posts: 47
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doba_s View Post
What I am looking for is a single unit system that doesn't require to run wires, have a multiple boxes here and there ...

iPhone apps are great but are not very accurate.

It looks like Starlane Athon is the winner! I'll order one for my car and report back
A very simple method that most anybody can use - and lap times are generally only accurate to the second- is using a video camera then look at times by sighting the start finish line in the video of the session.

I've been lent a v-box, and the data acquisition is granular and great, but find that useful only once all components of the car are dialed in and stable (tires warm and fresh, suspension set for the conditions, tune good, and being familiar with the track)
Groundhog is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-20-2009, 11:30 PM   #19
M3V8Driver
Captain
 
M3V8Driver's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3 - DCT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Posts: 727
iTrader: (0)

The problem with timers that rely on track-side beacons is, at least if you're like me, that you drive home at the end of the day only to realize you left the beacon and tripod standing by the track

I've done this countless times, even when I leave myself a note as a reminder to pick it up!
__________________
Mmmm... M&Ms,
Dale
M3V8Driver is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-21-2009, 03:12 PM   #20
von_zoom
Captain
 
von_zoom's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Z06
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Carolina

Posts: 915
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
that you drive home at the end of the day only to realize you left the beacon and tripod
That is almost as bad as arriving home only to discover no race car is on the trailer
Happy holidays all.
vz
__________________


Previous Track Toy
von_zoom is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-21-2009, 05:28 PM   #21
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: F25 2.8d(wifes)F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,767
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3V8Driver View Post
The problem with timers that rely on track-side beacons is, at least if you're like me, that you drive home at the end of the day only to realize you left the beacon and tripod standing by the track

I've done this countless times, even when I leave myself a note as a reminder to pick it up!
That is why you bring a helper and tape the beacon to their head and tell them to stand in the same place all day
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-21-2009, 05:40 PM   #22
Jaypod
Brigadier General
 
Jaypod's Avatar
 
Drives: Frozen M3, AM V8V, 991 GT3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

Posts: 4,950
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
That is why you bring a helper and tape the beacon to their head and tell them to stand in the same place all day
I see you finally caught on - that's why a bring you to the track!
Jaypod is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:12 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST