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      05-17-2015, 12:53 PM   #1
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My only real problem with American Racing Headers

Cost for a Mustang owner: $1539


Cost for a M3 owner: $3,200 ????


This is a fair question/comparison. So I'll be impressed if ARH even addresses, let alone rationalizes it.

*Update*
I have offered to test these and pay ARH full retail if they perform as advertised and if they fell short, I had the option to buy them at the same price as the Mustang setup. When you factor in the labor and dyno time, I have nothing to gain from offering to do this, I'd still lose money.

That offer was never obliged or refuted, it was just deleted, so take that as your answer to both their price justification and their faith in their claims.
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Last edited by MFL; 05-24-2015 at 03:54 AM.
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      05-17-2015, 01:20 PM   #2
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It's the ///M tax bro!
I'm sure it's volume. A lot more Mustang owners than M E9X owners.

Plus the cost to make unicorn headers
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      05-17-2015, 01:58 PM   #3
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I'm assuming its all the same materials and labor force manufacturing both, same tooling..... interesting question.

I don't see how less M owners would make the price be double.
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      05-17-2015, 02:09 PM   #4
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Gross vs. Volume

We are a market targeted for maximum gross extraction since we don't have the volume to sustain a reasonably priced foray into what is for most of us a middling upgrade proposition at best. The justification will be that there are R&D costs built into that astronomical difference in price between what are essentially identical headers in material costs and production methods since we are such a small market. Couple this with the Roundel on our hoods and ///M on the trunk and you'll see we are a perfect target for arbitrary price inflation.

Bottom line is let the eager early adopters get pounded with the markup, and once the seller realizes their pricing structure is untenable in the long run markdowns to a more palatable level should follow to capture a larger portion of the market. At that point the "research" is done, the material cost is almost assuredly identical to the half-price mustang system, and it makes more sense to sell discounted units than none at all. Obviously their material and production costs for making these headers are going to be well under retail for what the mustang system costs, so some napkin math estimates a conservative 3-400% markup to cover R&D.

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      05-17-2015, 02:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shredicus View Post
Gross vs. Volume

We are a market targeted for maximum gross extraction since we don't have the volume to sustain a reasonably priced foray into what is for most of us a middling upgrade proposition at best. The justification will be that there are R&D costs built into that astronomical difference in price between what are essentially identical headers in material costs and production methods since we are such a small market. Couple this with the Roundel on our hoods and ///M on the trunk and you'll see we are a perfect target for arbitrary price inflation.

Bottom line is let the eager early adopters get pounded with the markup, and once the seller realizes their pricing structure is untenable in the long run markdowns to a more palatable level should follow to capture a larger portion of the market. At that point the "research" is done, the material cost is almost assuredly identical to the half-price mustang system, and it makes more sense to sell discounted units than none at all. Obviously their material and production costs for making these headers are going to be well under retail for what the mustang system costs, so some napkin math estimates a conservative 3-400% markup to cover R&D.
Bullshit. There's no more R&D into the mustang kit than the M3. These prices limit your market, just as they'd limit a mustang market.

While these cars were 70k new, they're about 40k out the door currently and they're 7 years late BMW tuning market. The tuning market really explodes by the 2nd/3rd owners as they become cheaper to own/tune.

So they're missing their market targeting white hair yuppies when they should be hitting the same price points as Mustangs.
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      05-17-2015, 02:36 PM   #6
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Its amazing how little people understand about how products are priced or basic supply and demand. There are a TON more mustang buyers, hence the R and D cost is spread over many more sales, production runs are cheaper due to volume on something like a mustang and competition is way more with many many suppliers of headers for the mustang. All meaning the cost is lower.

m3 has a much smaller market, meaning R and D is spread over much less, production runs much smaller and much less competition which means pricing can be aggressive as there aren't many options.


Has zero to do with materials or actual cost of the product from a materials standpoint. Or is only one factor.

Now I have issues with the ARH for other reasons in that they don't seem to address the issue many have already brought up about the comparison to a catless, oem header car but that is a total different issue.

I have no issue with pricing the product at a very reasonable rate in my view.
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      05-17-2015, 03:07 PM   #7
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Funny I posted the same thing when they were released and was criticized. There's no excuse as to cost being high except it's dictated to what people will spend. M tax for sure. Ever see what lambo exhaust cost? Everyone here defending r&d has no idea what they're saying when it comes to many parts on these cars. This isn't BMW.
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      05-17-2015, 03:09 PM   #8
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For eveyone stating its r&d costs, tell me how much pricing has dropped on the e46 aftermarket as the cars have gotten cheaper which means the demographic buying them has less money for parts. Ess blower?
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      05-17-2015, 03:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s85e90 View Post
For eveyone stating its r&d costs, tell me how much pricing has dropped on the e46 aftermarket as the cars have gotten cheaper which means the demographic buying them has less money for parts. Ess blower?
Lol right? Superchargers cost half as much.

Kind of shitty if you ask me.
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      05-17-2015, 03:31 PM   #10
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I mean, do they get better gains than the Coyote? NOPE. Supposedly the headers alone for a 5.0 get 32rwhp without a tune for their longtubes
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      05-17-2015, 04:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFL View Post
Bullshit. There's no more R&D into the mustang kit than the M3. These prices limit your market, just as they'd limit a mustang market.

While these cars were 70k new, they're about 40k out the door currently and they're 7 years late BMW tuning market. The tuning market really explodes by the 2nd/3rd owners as they become cheaper to own/tune.

So they're missing their market targeting white hair yuppies when they should be hitting the same price points as Mustangs.
That is actually exactly what I stated. The implication is that if the cost to prototype and build the s65 and coyote headers are identical then we are paying more for no reason other than to amortize the costs of the initial R&D. Obviously I disagree with this making up all or even a majority of the 100% price difference, and instead we have just been targeted for maximum gross extraction per customer as opposed to volume sales for the stang units.
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      05-17-2015, 04:10 PM   #12
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I would be a buyer at 1500. at 3000 i would rather get a catless pipe and miss out on some power.
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      05-17-2015, 04:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I would be a buyer at 1500. at 3000 i would rather get a catless pipe and miss out on some power.
+1

At 3k a lot of us are eyeballing a used SC.
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      05-17-2015, 04:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFL View Post
I mean, do they get better gains than the Coyote? NOPE. Supposedly the headers alone for a 5.0 get 32rwhp without a tune for their longtubes
You can't run longitudes on a Coyote without a tune unless you want to blow up your engine. Longitudes, catless mid pipe, and tune is good for 45-60whp depending on the tuner.

I approached Kooks about making an exhaust and they didn't seem interested and referred me to another company. I had their exhaust on my 5.0 and it's the best one on the market. The full monty from them is less than 3K.
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      05-17-2015, 05:00 PM   #15
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It's funny, they think no one does any grass root type efforts with these cars...because they don't depreciate, lol.
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      05-17-2015, 05:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevedotmil View Post
You can't run longitudes on a Coyote without a tune unless you want to blow up your engine. Longitudes, catless mid pipe, and tune is good for 45-60whp depending on the tuner.

I approached Kooks about making an exhaust and they didn't seem interested and referred me to another company. I had their exhaust on my 5.0 and it's the best one on the market. The full monty from them is less than 3K.
longitudes
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      05-17-2015, 07:49 PM   #17
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It is a rough crowd here. If I could recover my development time and make my profit over 2500 sets of headers, I would charge less than if my market was probably 250 sets.

Based on their experience making headers and getting dragstrip and dyno results, ARH has every reason to be confident the M3 headers will yield gains. Be patient. I am sure people will be independently testing them in ways that some of us think give a better comparison to the standard catless x-pipe mod on stock headers, and results will be available for all to see. Whether the results will be good enough for you to spend your money depends on what you are looking for and what you are willing to pay.
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      05-17-2015, 10:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
It is a rough crowd here. If I could recover my development time and make my profit over 2500 sets of headers, I would charge less than if my market was probably 250 sets.

Based on their experience making headers and getting dragstrip and dyno results, ARH has every reason to be confident the M3 headers will yield gains. Be patient. I am sure people will be independently testing them in ways that some of us think give a better comparison to the standard catless x-pipe mod on stock headers, and results will be available for all to see. Whether the results will be good enough for you to spend your money depends on what you are looking for and what you are willing to pay.
So be patient while they substantiate the illusion of extensive R&D. These are headers, the same physical laws apply.
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      05-17-2015, 10:39 PM   #19
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No. I wrote be patient while others independently test. People have bought them and will be testing. You don't have to buy them until you see results that convince you to buy. There are always some people willing to spend the money to try new stuff they believe will offer gains.
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      05-17-2015, 10:57 PM   #20
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That and American Racing showed they have no idea about the exhaust on our car, Nick posted that removal of primary cat would only give 3-5hp...and that the gains were from the headers...

So either a straight up liar thats simply trying to inflate numbers to sell a product quickly to people that do not know better.
Or:
They are clueless about the M3 platform.

Either way anything they say or claim needs to be taken with a grain of salt to say the least. Still waiting on independent dynos from a car pre and post headers with cats etc already removed.

For a supercharged car the gains do seem to be decent though, NA its looking more around the range of 10hp gain maybe
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      05-17-2015, 11:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8600RPM View Post
Its amazing how little people understand about how products are priced or basic supply and demand. There are a TON more mustang buyers, hence the R and D cost is spread over many more sales, production runs are cheaper due to volume on something like a mustang and competition is way more with many many suppliers of headers for the mustang. All meaning the cost is lower.

m3 has a much smaller market, meaning R and D is spread over much less, production runs much smaller and much less competition which means pricing can be aggressive as there aren't many options.


Has zero to do with materials or actual cost of the product from a materials standpoint. Or is only one factor.

Now I have issues with the ARH for other reasons in that they don't seem to address the issue many have already brought up about the comparison to a catless, oem header car but that is a total different issue.

I have no issue with pricing the product at a very reasonable rate in my view.
What R&D ????? Have you seen any dynos???
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      05-18-2015, 12:18 AM   #22
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Guys I appologize for the delay responding. I'm actually at a wedding typing this while my wife is looking at me cross eyed. The BMW headers we're building are not like our other headers. They are fully tig welded and our flange bolt holes are all counter sunk to allow you to reuse the factory studs. These processes add considerable time into the build time. Only our Mercedes and Viper header systems get the same treatment and likewise all three are low volume relative to our other lines.
There is one thing you can be sure of, these systems are here to stay and I will do whatever I can to accommodate all inquiries and recommend what work works best for each individual application. ARH is a young, growing operation that built its reputation by taking a personal interest in what our customers needs are. We are on average more expensive then our competitors but that's par for the course if you want to be 100% USA made.
I know I've said this in the past but I welcome any M3 owner that would like to visit our facility to please make the trip. I believe it'll put into perspective just what involved in building our systems while making it clear why our M3 products are at a whole different level. Thanks.

Nick
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