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      11-13-2009, 01:21 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
welcome to the interwebs.
lol true that. I'm with Jonmartin on this one, PG is no better when it comes to what he's accusing Jonmartin about..

He even manipulated my comment on when I wondered the coincidence of him posting about how dyno operators cheat right after my Gintani dyno thread. I just stated it was a coincidence and he deleted my comment. I'd rather have anyone else regulate the thread than someone who can't seem to accept superchargers will probably make more power, and that full bolt-ons on the 4.0L V8 has the potential to hit approximately 500hp.
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      11-13-2009, 02:31 PM   #156
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Guys, let me clear this up: This is not the right place to bash each other or to slam other tunes/systems or to rehash old threads and arguments. This stops right now. The OP has been quite specific in his questions, so please address them or just move on. Any further attacks are subject to infractions. I did let some comments go in this thread, but won't do so any more.


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      11-13-2009, 02:44 PM   #157
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I'm also very interested in what the op is asking in regards to dct "remapping". The lag almost killed me last night T.T
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      11-13-2009, 02:51 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Guys, let me clear this up: This is not the right place to bash each other or to slam other tunes/systems or to rehash old threads and arguments. This stops right now. The OP has been quite specific in his questions, so please address them or just move on. Any further attacks are subject to infractions. I did let some comments go in this thread, but won't do so any more.


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Agreed!
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      11-13-2009, 03:09 PM   #159
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Southlight,
I have nothing against Robert or RD sport but Robert stands up for RD sport/Stroker motors like there is no tomorrow, which is fine. But you should also let the other members discuss how they feel. This is a forum, we all come on here to voice our opinions. Threatening the members and saying further "attacks" are subject to infractions is just shutting us down to voice our opinion. We are all grown men, I'm sure we can handle a argument. If we are going to get infractions for speaking our mind then what's the point of being on this forum?

We all get "attacked" but all of a sudden it happens to a moderator, the sudden change of heart?
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      11-13-2009, 03:12 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XunXunDCT View Post
I'm also very interested in what the op is asking in regards to dct "remapping". The lag almost killed me last night T.T
The lag is not an issue for me and never has been. I am curious what the DCT remap is that most supercharged cars seem to be getting. Maybe sammy can enlighten us?
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      11-13-2009, 03:18 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
Southlight,
I have nothing against Robert or RD sport but Robert stands up for RD sport/Stroker motors like there is no tomorrow, which is fine. But you should also let the other members discuss how they feel. This is a forum, we all come on here to voice our opinions. Threatening the members and saying further "attacks" are subject to infractions is just shutting us down to voice our opinion. We are all grown men, I'm sure we can handle a argument. If we are going to get infractions for speaking our mind then what's the point of being on this forum?

We all get "attacked" but all of a sudden it happens to a moderator, the sudden change of heart?
I agree. Let's the bashing begin shall we?
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      11-13-2009, 03:36 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tightie View Post
Southlight,
I have nothing against Robert or RD sport but Robert stands up for RD sport/Stroker motors like there is no tomorrow, which is fine. But you should also let the other members discuss how they feel. This is a forum, we all come on here to voice our opinions. Threatening the members and saying further "attacks" are subject to infractions is just shutting us down to voice our opinion. We are all grown men, I'm sure we can handle a argument. If we are going to get infractions for speaking our mind then what's the point of being on this forum?

We all get "attacked" but all of a sudden it happens to a moderator, the sudden change of heart?
I didn't have Robert's participation in mind when I wrote this reminder. He's clearly able to handle these things himself (and I'm not talking about using moderation power). Instead, there are some really disrespectful posts in here from both (or are it more?) camps. So, feel free to go on discussing if you really think it's necessary. Still, I won't allow any further insults; nor will I allow any 're-matches' on earlier threads. It's up to you guys if this thread stays open.

BTW: Please report posts you really feel attacked (i.e. insulted or offended) by.


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      11-13-2009, 03:49 PM   #163
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So Optherion, what are your thoughts so far? Would be great to know and see how the mods come along.
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      11-13-2009, 04:28 PM   #164
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I'll stay out of the big argument, but I was in the shower after the gym thinking about what I should do in the future with the M...and for some reason another thought came to my mind about OP's question...since it seems like E9X M's are going to be the last NA M's, why don't you just leave it stock, go with bolt on's which will give you more torque, and/or in the extreme case go with stroker? Since it seems the next M3 will have a turbo engine you can get that one in the future and enjoy it then?...don't know, just a thought...

btw, I'm absolutely 50/50 on stroker vs sc...I love them both. From my experience, car's with turbo's always perform higher vs NA which have similar HP and torque numbers, but since BMW is sadly but smartly changing their future M engines to turbos, I think we should enjoy this last one as it is...NA! plus, in OP's case as in my and I'm sure many others, we don't plan to race or have THE fastest car..so no point going for slightly more performance at a slightly higher risk...
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      11-13-2009, 05:22 PM   #165
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I guess some helpful information in this thread can help keep it open For those asking about DCT software I can help shed some light on it. We have been working with the DCT software for about 6 months. We have done lots of testing with several different software versions and have figured out the issues around DCT and high HP.

The factory DCT software was designed to keep drivers safe. This is done by delaying the downshifts by almost 2 seconds to the transmission and slightly slipping the cutch. This is done so that drivers in certain situations dont flip the rear end of the car out. This is also what customers experience as lag when the car begins its downshift cycle and you get on the gas, you sit there waiting. The problem this software will cause when you add high TQ and HP to the car is when you downshift under WOT the built in delay along with added TQ confuses the tranny and your 2 sec delay becomes a 3+ second delay until the clutch gets engaged. During this time if you do not let off the gas your RPM's will shoot up and when the clutch does finally try to engage it tries to engage as it would with 400 HP and it slips causing a transmission
overheat / malfunction. This happens in D mode when you floor it sometimes as the transmission tries to downshift and it happens in Manual mode also. There are no issues with upshifting when you run the stock DCT software on a supercharged car as the stock DCT software engages the clutch very quickly during upshifts.

There are a few solutions to this problem. One is to have a custom DCT file built that will slightly impove the clutch engagement during upshifts but will also remove the built in delay on downshifts. By having the software engage the clutch as soon as it is told to downshift and also slightly reducing power to the engine during this very quick period you can have the transmission perform flawlessly in all conditions. The second is to limit the power and torque in the car so that the transmission can handle the added power during downshifts. We have found that the limit for power on stock DCT software is about 575 chp and about 380 ft/lb tq. If you keep power at this level the DCT performs ok during downshifts under WOT with the factory software. Once you raise power to 600 + chp and 400 + ft/lb of tq the transmission begins to have issues with downshifts.

The other issue with DCT once you figure all of this out is being able to provide the customer with a custom DCT software file. The interface to access the DCT control unit is extreamly difficult to get. It is not a simple interface like the ones that can be purchased for loading engine software as the DCT ecu is in a difficult location to access and can only be flashed thru the OBD port. It also requires factory knowledge on how and where to load different version of software into the DCT ECU without erasing the current file and crippling the car. If you try to load a unauthorized file into the DCT ECU the ECU will lock you out and the transmission will be shut down. If you do this and fail to correct it you will need to buy a new $10k transmission. This is why we currently can only load DCT stage 2 software into cars that are brought to us for installation.

I hope this information helps.

Last edited by Roman@ESS; 11-13-2009 at 05:39 PM.
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      11-13-2009, 05:35 PM   #166
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great post Rom3n!!!
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      11-13-2009, 05:56 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Kernow View Post
This is all getting way out of control. The OP wants to know about a reliable performance upgrade for his car. Hands down a stroker option is the way to go. In previous post JonMartin admits FI limits the life expectancy of the stock motor as he well knows. But he is still fighting his argument in this thread.

And also for you guys across the pond its all about 1/4 mile BS. Just because a car is faster in a straight line doesn't mean its a better car. Run a NA S65 against a FI S65 with stock internals over a long period on a track and you'll see who will be in the pits overheating or encountering over issues.

If money isn't an issue then yes you are a retard if you want FI, especially on stock internals!
Of course the 1/4 mile does not make the car. You are telling that to M3 owners who already made the decision to choose a well rounded car. You are telling us what we already know.

The point is the 1/4 mile illustrates power gains quite well. If the strokers really were so powerful don't you think they would have headed out to the strip to show what they could do and compare the results? We don't have a single slip from them.
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      11-13-2009, 05:59 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
I guess some helpful information in this thread can help keep it open For those asking about DCT software I can help shed some light on it. We have been working with the DCT software for about 6 months. We have done lots of testing with several different software versions and have figured out the issues around DCT and high HP.

The factory DCT software was designed to keep drivers safe. This is done by delaying the downshifts by almost 2 seconds to the transmission and slightly slipping the cutch. This is done so that drivers in certain situations dont flip the rear end of the car out. This is also what customers experience as lag when the car begins its downshift cycle and you get on the gas, you sit there waiting. The problem this software will cause when you add high TQ and HP to the car is when you downshift under WOT the built in delay along with added TQ confuses the tranny and your 2 sec delay becomes a 3+ second delay until the clutch gets engaged. During this time if you do not let off the gas your RPM's will shoot up and when the clutch does finally try to engage it tries to engage as it would with 400 HP and it slips causing a transmission
overheat / malfunction. This happens in D mode when you floor it sometimes as the transmission tries to downshift and it happens in Manual mode also. There are no issues with upshifting when you run the stock DCT software on a supercharged car as the stock DCT software engages the clutch very quickly during upshifts.

There are a few solutions to this problem. One is to have a custom DCT file built that will slightly impove the clutch engagement during upshifts but will also remove the built in delay on downshifts. By having the software engage the clutch as soon as it is told to downshift and also slightly reducing power to the engine during this very quick period you can have the transmission perform flawlessly in all conditions. The second is to limit the power and torque in the car so that the transmission can handle the added power during downshifts. We have found that the limit for power on stock DCT software is about 575 chp and about 380 ft/lb tq. If you keep power at this level the DCT performs ok during downshifts under WOT with the factory software. Once you raise power to 600 + chp and 400 + ft/lb of tq the transmission begins to have issues with downshifts.

The other issue with DCT once you figure all of this out is being able to provide the customer with a custom DCT software file. The interface to access the DCT control unit is extreamly difficult to get. It is not a simple interface like the ones that can be purchased for loading engine software as the DCT ecu is in a difficult location to access and can only be flashed thru the OBD port. It also requires factory knowledge on how and where to load different version of software into the DCT ECU without erasing the current file and crippling the car. If you try to load a unauthorized file into the DCT ECU the ECU will lock you out and the transmission will be shut down. If you do this and fail to correct it you will need to buy a new $10k transmission. This is why we currently can only load DCT stage 2 software into cars that are brought to us for installation.

I hope this information helps.
Will the DCT software be independent of anything else? As in, what if someone wants to mix and match your DCT software with someone else's supercharger and tuning?
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      11-13-2009, 06:48 PM   #169
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lol true that. I'm with Jonmartin on this one, PG is no better when it comes to what he's accusing Jonmartin about.
Yeah but you have to find it funny, jon was a G-power fanboy to the fullest. Nothing was better when he was running the G-power SC. Now he is on the Gintani bandwagon and now talks crap on other SC kits including ESS. Tightie is guilty of the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooey View Post
The point is the 1/4 mile illustrates power gains quite well. If the strokers really were so powerful don't you think they would have headed out to the strip to show what they could do and compare the results? We don't have a single slip from them.
What you keep failing to understand, is no one said a stroker gets more power. Nobody said that. If you are 1/4 mile junky then yes SC would be the way to go. But honestly around a track, no question I would prefer to be NA.
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      11-13-2009, 07:00 PM   #170
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Yeah but you have to find it funny, jon was a G-power fanboy to the fullest. Nothing was better when he was running the G-power SC. Now he is on the Gintani bandwagon and now talks crap on other SC kits including ESS. Tightie is guilty of the same thing.


What you keep failing to understand, is no one said a stroker gets more power. Nobody said that. If you are 1/4 mile junky then yes SC would be the way to go. But honestly around a track, no question I would prefer to be NA.
What you keep failing to understand is around a track, honestly, a proper SC kit will win as a centrifugal provides you with linear power, and far more of it.

The point of a stroker is not to get more power? What is it then? To give you something to type about everywhere you get a chance?

You go ahead and stay NA, the top E9X performers will be boosted, end of story.
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      11-13-2009, 07:03 PM   #171
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What you keep failing to understand is around a track, honestly, a proper SC kit will win as a centrifugal provides you with linear power, and far more of it.

The point of a stroker is not to get more power? What is it then? To give you something to type about everywhere you get a chance?
Oh really.

I want reliability on the track. Not FI headaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooey View Post
You go ahead and stay NA, the top E9X performers will be boosted, end of story.
LOL.

This forum is a riot. Yesterday I was accused of working for ESS, by Jon Martin.

Now I am a NA fanboy. Too fuckin funny.
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      11-13-2009, 07:05 PM   #172
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Oh really.

I want reliability on the track. No FI headaches.


LOL.

This forum is a riot. Yesterday I was accused of working for ESS, by Jon Martin.

Now I am a NA fanboy. Too fuckin funny.
Yes, really.

The forum is a riot. What jonmartin said to you has nothing to do with me, maintain your focus.

Who called you an NA fanboy? You said you would rather be NA, did you not? What is it exactly you are saying because you continue to type and provide nothing of substance.
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      11-13-2009, 07:10 PM   #173
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Yes, really.

The forum is a riot. What jonmartin said to you has nothing to do with me, maintain your focus.

Who called you an NA fanboy? You said you would rather be NA, did you not? What is it exactly you are saying because you continue to type and provide nothing of substance.
If I built a M3 for the track (w/ turns). Yes I would keep it NA.

I repeat, I don't want FI headaches at the track.
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      11-13-2009, 07:12 PM   #174
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If I built a M3 for the track (w/ turns). Yes I would keep it NA.

I repeat, I don't want FI headaches at the track.
What is your experience with FI E92 M3's at the track?
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      11-13-2009, 07:20 PM   #175
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What is your experience with FI E92 M3's at the track?
It will be no different than other FI cars at the track. Heat is not your friend.

They are not reinventing the wheel, when putting FI in the E9x M3.

1/4 mile and highway runs, not doubt the SC M3's will rule.
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      11-13-2009, 07:38 PM   #176
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It will be no different than other FI cars at the track. Heat is not your friend.

They are not reinventing the wheel, when putting FI in the E9x M3.

1/4 mile and highway runs, not doubt the SC M3's will rule.
Really? So you are basing the E92 M3 on other cars? That makes sense.

Maybe you should speak to people who have FI on the M3 and have tracked the car? PM niterider, ask him about his experiences, and then you will have a base from which to speak from.

The 1/4 mile and highway belong to the SC as you said. The track does as well.
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