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      11-05-2009, 09:36 PM   #221
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not worth it at all!

u can get a normal m and make it look way better and perform way better too!!!

now the e46 csl was a legend this is a fail!
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      11-05-2009, 09:37 PM   #222
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Isn't that motor (and vehicle for that matter) just for homologation purposes? If so, I don't think BMW cares that much about the output for the street car (they could be trying to avoid having to re-certify the car, hence the lower out of the box HP), they're trying to create a more competitive basis for the FIA and ALMS series which don't allow for a displacement difference.
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      11-05-2009, 10:10 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Invester View Post
not worth it at all!

u can get a normal m and make it look way better and perform way better too!!!

now the e46 csl was a legend this is a fail!
Wow, pretty bold statement considering we have no hard data yet. Except for the CF roof on the E46, this one is taking pretty much the same approach as a factory tuner, and since the base car is more capable::the finished product should be more capable. Not quite sure how someone how posts in tweets knows more.
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      11-05-2009, 10:36 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCadet View Post
I do not want to get into an argument with you, but if the displacement has been raised from 4.0l to 4.4l, do you really think the increase is a mere 36hp? Sounds to me like another case of a car with underrated power.
Great I don't want to argue either. I never said a word about whether or not I felt the stated hp was realistic nor accurate. However, based on displacement alone and not a big bump in hp/l the 450 hp number is realistic, perhaps just a tad low. Given the higher displacement, a new exhuast and a very likely remap 450 hp is a bit low.
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      11-05-2009, 10:40 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by BMWCadet View Post
I do not want to get into an argument with you, but if the displacement has been raised from 4.0l to 4.4l, do you really think the increase is a mere 36hp? Sounds to me like another case of a car with underrated power.
Peak power is a very isolated parameter. The area under the power and torque graphs can be altered for much greater perfomance without raising the peak numbers. BTW, if the 450 is in euro specs, that compares to 420, so only 30 additional DIN ponies.
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      11-05-2009, 10:54 PM   #226
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      11-05-2009, 11:45 PM   #227
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Where are the people who said there was no way this car was a factory BMW, when it was caught testing on the ring?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312477
Right here... and I have no problem admitting I was wrong. On the the other hand I am also proud that I do not take every little rumor or speculation as a fact and wait for some real facts to come out before commenting.

Anyhow, back on track: it will be interesting who on this forum will have the first one!!
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      11-05-2009, 11:58 PM   #228
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Peak power really doesn't mean that much especially when it is so often misquoted from the factory (ie 335i).

At least wait for a dyno graph before making judgements on the performance of the new motor.

Besides the motor makes 7.1% more peak power and the car weighs 11.5% less then previous. So basically this car is 20% faster (just based on peak outputs) then the normal e92 m3... 20% increase in straight line performance is HUGE!

Ill give you an example a 997.2 turbo makes 19.8% more peak power then a 997.2 S but weighs 10.1% more... So if you just look at peak power vs. weight (as seemingly everyone on the board wants to) then the 997.2 turbo is really only ~10% faster in a straight line then a 997.2 S.

Hopefully that will give some idea just how much faster the m3 GTS is then a stock e9x m3.
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      11-06-2009, 12:04 AM   #229
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Werd. Most of the cars with this power-to-weight ratio hitting 11s.

Hitting 11.7 - 11.8 second and a trap speed of 117 - 118 mph will be easy in the M3 GTS. It certainly has the power-to-weight ratio of a high-11 second car.

Don't forget it is all about the torque curve. I am sure M3 GTS makes a lot more midrange and low-end than the standard M3.

An 11 second car is considered "stupid fast".


Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Peak power really doesn't mean that much especially when it is so often misquoted from the factory (ie 335i).

At least wait for a dyno graph before making judgements on the performance of the new motor.

Besides the motor makes 7.1% more peak power and the car weights 11.5% less then previous. So basically this car is 20% faster (just based on peak outputs) then the normal e92 m3... 20% increase in straight line performance is HUGE!
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      11-06-2009, 12:11 AM   #230
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high 11s M3 GTS? yes pls
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      11-06-2009, 12:14 AM   #231
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Yep. 7.1 lbs/HP is a solid high-11 second car with around a 117 - 118 mph trap speed.

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high 11s M3 GTS? yes pls
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      11-06-2009, 12:31 AM   #232
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Looks like an amazing car, but normal M3 @ $ 57K usd MSRP >>>> M3 GTS @ 115k Euros MSRP. Price difference is ridiculous, and unwarranted. 30 more bhp and a couple track mods for (some one correct me) $170k difference?

I would be happier with the difference in price in my pocket imho.
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      11-06-2009, 12:36 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnokGnik View Post
Looks like an amazing car, but normal M3 @ $ 57K usd MSRP >>>> M3 GTS @ 115k Euros MSRP. Price difference is ridiculous, and unwarranted. 30 more bhp and a couple track mods for (some one correct me) $170k difference?

I would be happier with the difference in price in my pocket imho.
I think you need to read through the thread before you jump to conclusions about pricing.
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      11-06-2009, 11:17 AM   #234
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Only making a hundred, they want the cost high. Exclusive car just so they can post a few videos and keep up the show for the hard core fans.

Translation: US = never.
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      11-06-2009, 11:20 AM   #235
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Quote:
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the new 911 turbo is much more than 10% faster in a straight line. 997.2S w/PDK 0-100 mph is about 9.2 seconds. New 911 turbo w/PDK porsche has claimed 7 seconds flat. I would imagine as always, they are going very conservative and will say it will prob run a 6.8. That is a 26% difference in straight line acceleration to 100 mph.
Thank you for proving my point that quoted peak HP and curb weight don't tell the whole story of how fast a car is.

Obviously once you start taking into account the 4wd and increased mid range power and torque the turbo has over the 997.2 S, you get the real difference in timed acceleration. The same will apply to the M3 GTS vs. e9x m3.

The intangibles that no one is taking into account when they internet race, play a huge role.
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      11-06-2009, 12:46 PM   #236
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How is low or midrange power or torque important when if driving at a WOT clip you are typically never below 6500 rpm? The car and the real world essentially do not see nor care what the engine does below that. It is invisible for all practical purposes.
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      11-06-2009, 01:24 PM   #237
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try red.

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      11-06-2009, 01:28 PM   #238
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try red.
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      11-06-2009, 01:54 PM   #239
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How is low or midrange power or torque important when if driving at a WOT clip you are typically never below 6500 rpm? The car and the real world essentially do not see nor care what the engine does below that. It is invisible for all practical purposes.
if you're only talking about straight line then ya... but you still have ~8% more peak HP and probably more like 10-12% additional power @ 6500 rpm.

I still don't understand the complaint with the 4.4L. Ya its down slightly in hp/L... so what? On a track in the real world the new motor is going to be significantly better then the s65b40.
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      11-06-2009, 02:05 PM   #240
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Quote:
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How is low or midrange power or torque important when if driving at a WOT clip you are typically never below 6500 rpm? The car and the real world essentially do not see nor care what the engine does below that. It is invisible for all practical purposes.
you should tell that to the rest of the le mans competition as audi dominated them with their torque monster of a diesel - the R10 TDI. torque matters.

however, you are right. torque output really only matters for the RPM range that is being used. to use your example: 6500-8400RPM is a pretty wide range in terms of these cars and if BMW was able to capitalize on torque in this RPM range (it's almost implied that they did just based on the displacement bump) then the car as a whole will be significantly faster than say a similar car with less torque in that range but the same peak hp numbers.

i see this GTS car as going one of two ways:
BMW underrated the 450hp claim
or, if that 450hp figure turns out to be correct, BMW tuned the car to be more focused on torque output just around the peak RPM which would not show up in your power/weight comparisons, but would definitely contribute to its overall performance

until we see a dyno graph to compare to the current M3's curves we can only speculate.
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      11-06-2009, 03:22 PM   #241
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if further weight reduction would improve performance, one could consider dismembering both the left arm and left leg. one could also go for the olympic swimmer method of going hairless. don't need your earlobes either. for the hardcore enthusiast, parting with the genitalia may also be beneficial.
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      11-06-2009, 09:18 PM   #242
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Quote:
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It's the DIN weight:




Best regards,
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If that's the case, then the weight savings are not huge - the EU weight of DCT coupe is 1675kg, which equates to a DIN weight of around 1560kg - so the weight savings are less than 100kgs...
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