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      10-30-2009, 02:35 PM   #155
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I hope its priced under the M3. Will be a great come back for GM. Go America
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      10-30-2009, 02:48 PM   #156
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I hope its priced under the M3. Will be a great come back for GM. Go America
You do realize the car is already available, right?
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      10-30-2009, 02:50 PM   #157
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What are you guys arguing about?

Do you guys actually think the M3 with a pro driver could lap faster than the CTS-V? Yes or No
No and Ive driven both on the track
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      10-30-2009, 02:50 PM   #158
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What are you guys arguing about?

Do you guys actually think the M3 with a pro driver could lap faster than the CTS-V? Yes or No
Maybe not. But surely you can't think that a Pro driver would be slower than Michael C right (and no offense to him by any means)?

So, how much faster than Michael C would Heinricy have been in the M3?
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      10-30-2009, 02:57 PM   #159
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I hope its priced under the M3. Will be a great come back for GM. Go America
A CTS-V here in Canada is the same price as an M3 and down the road after 3 years it will be worth about 50% of what the M3 will be worth. I speak with a lot of experiance on this on what used North American luxury cars are worth.
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      10-30-2009, 02:59 PM   #160
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      10-30-2009, 03:07 PM   #161
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Something tells me the M3 is a better autocross car anyway,the CTS-V needs a lot of long straightaways to have the advantage.

GM pry used a track that favored their car.
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      10-30-2009, 03:26 PM   #162
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A CTS-V here in Canada is the same price as an M3 and down the road after 3 years it will be worth about 50% of what the M3 will be worth. I speak with a lot of experiance on this on what used North American luxury cars are worth.
Well said. A good indicator is seeing the prices of 2005 CTS-V. They are down the toilet at less than 70% of their original price.
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      10-30-2009, 03:35 PM   #163
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I found this on a CTS-V forum. It is interesting that GM techs set this guy's car up for the event. I'm not saying that the CTS isn't the faster car, but the "competition's" view is interesting.

I just wanted to give you a quick wrap up and dispell a few myths and rumors I see around the net.

My first hand experience was insane. It was a media circus and Cadillac made me feel every bit like a celeb. I must have been interviewed a dozen times. The highlight for me was a day before the event getting to participate in car guy talk with the engineers Aaron Link, Chris Barebie (I'm certain I spelled the last name wrong), the techs Al and Roger who set up my car and lastly John Heinricy. I got a few preview laps with John I described in another post- awesome! I felt like a boy among men and these guys were actually thanking me up and down for making the trip out. They all thanked me more than once for buying the car. I thanked them for building it.

What started out as a near disaster with cars pulling out, turned into a media extravaganza. Lutz arrived like a rockstar and the day was on. Camera crew, magazines, the SPEED Channel, the networks and maybe a dozen or so live bloggers were there. I had never seen so many flash bulbs in my life as we stood there. It was like paparazzi and red carpet crazy. There was even a Helicopter chasing me around the track filming, (picture Miami Vice.)

If you haven't seen the results here they are:
1. Cadillac CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560
2. Cadillac CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183
3. Cadillac CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902
4. BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424
5. Cadillac CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153
6. Cadillac CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026
7. Cadillac CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321
8. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X (Wes Siler): 3:08.126
9. BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989
10. Cadillac CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292
11. Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702
12. Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670

There was also a "mystery driver" who topped John H. I think he was a Monticello instructor- not sure.

Here is my take. In all categories within "like driver" comparison the V wins. Did Lutz lose to the kid in the M3?, yes. Is the kid in the M3 an amateur? I'm not sure, but he has skills for sure. Everyone gave him credit and he deserved it. I asked him several times what he does, where he's raced, what schools he's been to etc. etc. He was very tight lipped, like a sandbagger, ringer. His dad and little brothers on the other hand revealed that he races a lot and goes to race camps every summer. In my opinion he's somewhere above an accomplished amateur and somewhere below a pro. Which happens to be right where he finished. Give him credit for sure, but don't be fooled that he's just a 21 year old kid with a nice car. It was revealed he also had a Z06 in the past and there was a Porshe and maybe some other cars in the family stable as well.

So amoung the top 6 pro and well trained drivers the CTS took the top 3 spots. Call them category 1.

Category 2

Among amateur drivers with better than average skills, Lutz beat the Evo and the M5.

The last 3 drivers included me, with zero skill, first day on the track. The Jag driver had his own helmet, which tells me he's done this at least once or twice before and the Audi driver who I spent some time with, who has been to Audi driving school and a couple of track days. The cadillac pros all gave me props for beating the 2 of them from the "low skills" category. I was tickled pink that guys like John, Aaron, and Chris and the techs, Roger and Al were giving me props for beating a couple cars on my first day. I can tell you it was the car, not me. I just paused typing for a second to pat myself on the back

Cadillac and the crew really treated me like a king and if I sound like a Cadillac ambassador, I guess I am. I was just happy to be a part of it. I did not want to ask for anything else, since so much was already given. I only asked for one thing. I noticed the in-car cameras in some of the other cars and I didn't get one, because obviously they had other CTS-Vs with cameras already, like Bob's car, so I didn't need one. I casually asked Mary, one of the marketing people who seemed to be in charge, if I could get one, so I'd have something to show the wife and kids when I got home. She got on it like stink on poop and in 5 minutes there was a camera in my car
. Thanks Mary! Just another nice touch and attention to detail. Thanks to David Caldwell for selecting me to participate.

My V was the only Thunder Grey there. I think the camera men and journalists liked it because they put it between the Bimmers and Jag. It seems to have made it to a lot of pictures on the net that I've seen so far. I'm wearing the orange jaket and sometimes the Blue Jacket with the Michigan block M -go blue. By the way after running around a track wide open for a day. My buddy, Dave, and I jumped in the car for a 9 1/2 hour run home to Ann Arbor. The car can do it all and do it all very well. Well done Cadillac, you've made a friend for life.

Last edited by Cabinetman; 10-30-2009 at 03:51 PM.
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      10-30-2009, 03:42 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Cabinetman View Post
I found this on a CTS-V forum. I found it interesting that GM techs set this guy's car up for the event. I'm not saying that the CTS isn't the faster car, but I found the "competition's" views interesting.

I just wanted to give you a quick wrap up and dispell a few myths and rumors I see around the net.

My first hand experience was insane. It was a media circus and Cadillac made me feel every bit like a celeb. I must have been interviewed a dozen times. The highlight for me was a day before the event getting to participate in car guy talk with the engineers Aaron Link, Chris Barebie (I'm certain I spelled the last name wrong), the techs Al and Roger who set up my car and lastly John Heinricy. I got a few preview laps with John I described in another post- awesome! I felt like a boy among men and these guys were actually thanking me up and down for making the trip out. They all thanked me more than once for buying the car. I thanked them for building it.

What started out as a near disaster with cars pulling out, turned into a media extravaganza. Lutz arrived like a rockstar and the day was on. Camera crew, magazines, the SPEED Channel, the networks and maybe a dozen or so live bloggers were there. I had never seen so many flash bulbs in my life as we stood there. It was like paparazzi and red carpet crazy. There was even a Helicopter chasing me around the track filming, (picture Miami Vice.)

If you haven't seen the results here they are:
1. Cadillac CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560
2. Cadillac CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183
3. Cadillac CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902
4. BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424
5. Cadillac CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153
6. Cadillac CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026
7. Cadillac CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321
8. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X (Wes Siler): 3:08.126
9. BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989
10. Cadillac CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292
11. Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702
12. Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670

There was also a "mystery driver" who topped John H. I think he was a Monticello instructor- not sure.

Here is my take. In all categories within "like driver" comparison the V wins. Did Lutz lose to the kid in the M3?, yes. Is the kid in the M3 an amateur? I'm not sure, but he has skills for sure. Everyone gave him credit and he deserved it. I asked him several times what he does, where he's raced, what schools he's been to etc. etc. He was very tight lipped, like a sandbagger, ringer. His dad and little brothers on the other hand revealed that he races a lot and goes to race camps every summer. In my opinion he's somewhere above an accomplished amateur and somewhere below a pro. Which happens to be right where he finished. Give him credit for sure, but don't be fooled that he's just a 21 year old kid with a nice car. It was revealed he also had a Z06 in the past and there was a Porshe and maybe some other cars in the family stable as well.

So amoung the top 6 pro and well trained drivers the CTS took the top 3 spots. Call them category 1.

Category 2

Among amateur drivers with better than average skills, Lutz beat the Evo and the M5.

The last 3 drivers included me, with zero skill, first day on the track. The Jag driver had his own helmet, which tells me he's done this at least once or twice before and the Audi driver who I spent some time with, who has been to Audi driving school and a couple of track days. The cadillac pros all gave me props for beating the 2 of them from the "low skills" category. I was tickled pink that guys like John, Aaron, and Chris and the techs, Roger and Al were giving me props for beating a couple cars on my first day. I can tell you it was the car, not me. I just paused typing for a second to pat myself on the back

Cadillac and the crew really treated me like a king and if I sound like a Cadillac ambassador, I guess I am. I was just happy to be a part of it. I did not want to ask for anything else, since so much was already given. I only asked for one thing. I noticed the in-car cameras in some of the other cars and I didn't get one, because obviously they had other CTS-Vs with cameras already, like Bob's car, so I didn't need one. I casually asked Mary, one of the marketing people who seemed to be in charge, if I could get one, so I'd have something to show the wife and kids when I got home. She got on it like stink on poop and in 5 minutes there was a camera in my car
. Thanks Mary! Just another nice touch and attention to detail. Thanks to David Caldwell for selecting me to participate.

My V was the only Thunder Grey there. I think the camera men and journalists liked it because they put it between the Bimmers and Jag. It seems to have made it to a lot of pictures on the net that I've seen so far. I'm wearing the orange jaket and sometimes the Blue Jacket with the Michigan block M -go blue. By the way after running around a track wide open for a day. My buddy, Dave, and I jumped in the car for a 9 1/2 hour run home to Ann Arbor. The car can do it all and do it all very well. Well done Cadillac, you've made a friend for life.
The ringer was Johnny O of Corvette racing fame.
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      10-30-2009, 03:47 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Cabinetman View Post

Here is my take. In all categories within "like driver" comparison the V wins. Did Lutz lose to the kid in the M3?, yes. Is the kid in the M3 an amateur? I'm not sure, but he has skills for sure. Everyone gave him credit and he deserved it. I asked him several times what he does, where he's raced, what schools he's been to etc. etc. He was very tight lipped, like a sandbagger, ringer. His dad and little brothers on the other hand revealed that he races a lot and goes to race camps every summer. In my opinion he's somewhere above an accomplished amateur and somewhere below a pro. Which happens to be right where he finished. Give him credit for sure, but don't be fooled that he's just a 21 year old kid with a nice car. It was revealed he also had a Z06 in the past and there was a Porshe and maybe some other cars in the family stable as well.

[/i]
I can give you guys my take on this. I am a shy kid period, but when it comes to me and the steering wheel watch out. As for "attending race camps every summer" I did the skip barber 3 day course last summer and then the 2 day course at the end of the summer/fall. Other than that Ive ran 2 skip barber races and tracked my previous z06 twice, Had never been on the track in the M3.
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      10-30-2009, 03:53 PM   #166
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I can give you guys my take on this. I am a shy kid period, but when it comes to me and the steering wheel watch out. As for "attending race camps every summer" I did the skip barber 3 day course last summer and then the 2 day course at the end of the summer/fall. Other than that Ive ran 2 skip barber races and tracked my previous z06 twice, Had never been on the track in the M3.
I figured as much. I thought it was a bit odd that the CTS-V poster put you in the same category as the GM hired guns. Regardless, you did a great job.
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      10-30-2009, 03:55 PM   #167
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My wife just called me at work and tells me that she wants a CTS-V because it will be a faster car than my M3(One of her interns pointed out an article on this GM propaganda day to her }and now I have to suffer through her telling me that I should be driving a CaddyShe knows the name John Heinricy from my racing days and wonders why he was so much faster than the M3 that was there,after my stories of toasting a lot of the faster cars at my trackdays.
Fuck GM did a great job of making my life hell with my wife and now I think as a group we should challenge the CTS-V community to a grudge match to show that M3's will toast their fat ass on a track.We need to do this to save our honour!
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      10-30-2009, 04:18 PM   #168
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My wife just called me at work and tells me that she wants a CTS-V because it will be a faster car than my M3(One of her interns pointed out an article on this GM propaganda day to her }and now I have to suffer through her telling me that I should be driving a CaddyShe knows the name John Heinricy from my racing days and wonders why he was so much faster than the M3 that was there,after my stories of toasting a lot of the faster cars at my trackdays.
Fuck GM did a great job of making my life hell with my wife and now I think as a group we should challenge the CTS-V community to a grudge match to show that M3's will toast their fat ass on a track.We need to do this to save our honour!
This is why I am glad my wife could care less and knows nothing about cars! But that sounds like a fun idea, especially if it was done right with people of similar driving skills! If I get my assed handed to me by a CTS-V maybe I will change my mind about its on track performance. For now I will stick to a fat car instead of an obese one!!

Got to hand it to GM - they certainly pulled this off and got the publicity they were looking for!

Edit: Maybe you should buy one for the wife and bring her to the track and she can be the one to hand it to us!

Last edited by Jaypod; 10-30-2009 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Added info.
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      10-30-2009, 04:24 PM   #169
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I can give you guys my take on this. I am a shy kid period, but when it comes to me and the steering wheel watch out. As for "attending race camps every summer" I did the skip barber 3 day course last summer and then the 2 day course at the end of the summer/fall. Other than that Ive ran 2 skip barber races and tracked my previous z06 twice, Had never been on the track in the M3.
Thats cool man - sounds like you have some good skills and did well at an unknown track in a car you have not tracked before. Sounds like Heinricy's car was set up for him (he is an engineer afterall) and he know the track, so not surprising he would be the quickest behind a pro racer.
Looking forward to seeing the vids (Speed apparently is doing a show too?)
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      10-30-2009, 04:30 PM   #170
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This is why I am glad my wife could care less and knows nothing about cars! But that sounds like a fun idea, especially if it was done right with people of similar driving skills! If I get my assed handed to me by a CTS-V maybe I will change my mind about its on track performance. For now I will stick to a fat car instead of an obese one!!

Got to hand it to GM - they certainly pulled this off and got the publicity they were looking for!
My wife loves to goad me about things like this with my cars.I guess that happens after a quarter century of bliss and the fact that she was one of the crew in my racing times.
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      10-30-2009, 04:47 PM   #171
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I figured as much. I thought it was a bit odd that the CTS-V poster put you in the same category as the GM hired guns. Regardless, you did a great job.
Hi guys,
I'm the guy who posted on the caddy forum. Please read my post carefully. I said several times Michael was the man, that day with great skills. Everyone there gave him credit. I said "the car" won. Which is really no suprise. For all you guys wondering what the same driver might do in this car or that car, it's already been done. Buy a magazine once in a while, they do it all the time with exactly the same driver. Also read a few posts above where Michael hints that he could do better in the V than his own car with a little practice. Don't hate the Caddy for setting up a silly promo stunt. Everyone there had a blast.

I gathered Michael was a shy kid, I sat next to him at the table. It was very clear that his father, brothers etc. were car guys, big time. That's awesome, I wish I had the time. I'm a fan of cars in general. I'd love to be 21 again and have the cars and track time Mike has had. Fact is I'm jealous.

Mike even got big credit at this event for previously owning a GM car Z06 vette. Goes to show he's a car fan, not a brand name snob. This is my first caddy. I've had audi, volvo, honda, subaru. etc. I love the M3 and it was on my list to buy at well, but I had to get 3 car seats and golf clubs in the cars, etc. etc. We all have our reasons. Maybe the next one will be a BMer, who knows. Read my post closely. I didn't say he was a ringer, I said his skills were much closer to the pros than they were to Lutz. The man is 77. My statement is not that bold and doesn't take away from Mike at all. It was an awesome day and I'm thrilled they picked me to participate and I love my car. Fact is I love Mike's car too. This was my first time ever on a track. I was happy to not be last place and to drive my car home with no dents in it. I was happy to not spin out on the wet track.

Just don't say of the "real competitors" this guy won or that guy won. Someone posted earlier, "since when does 5th place win". A race is a race. Lutz said in the press and said before the race began, we have pros hear to ensure we win. Of course that would happen. Mike did awesome in any circumstance, but GM wouldn't allow anyone else to win, c'mon. If I said of the 38 year old guys who work 60 hours a week with a wife and 3 busy boys at home I came in first in my category. Silly right. I'm a working stiff who had a blast driving his fast car around the track.

The speculation surrounding Mike that day was based on how good he was. "He must be somebody" was what we kept hearing. How cool is that? Enjoy your day Mike. But guys don't think a V would lose to an M3 with the same driver. BMW will likely trump the caddy with the next M5. Then Audi or Merc will up it again. Isn't that what is really cool. They will all get better.

I hope to read about you as a pro one day Mike and say guess what I was on the track with that guy once before any of you knew who he was. Nice job. Can't we all just get along?

Chris
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      10-30-2009, 04:50 PM   #172
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Something tells me the M3 is a better autocross car anyway,the CTS-V needs a lot of long straightaways to have the advantage.

GM pry used a track that favored their car.
Wrong they set the track up to help slower cars.

They put a "1st gear chicane" in the middle of the straight.

All the corners at Monticello are tight and technical.


http://m.jalopnik.com/site?sid=jalop...efId%3D5392640
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      10-30-2009, 04:59 PM   #173
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I agree with this. Note that I admit that I've had to turn off DSC before in order to improve my time. However, I believe this is the exception rather than the rule.
Agreed (for the more sophisticated units you've mentioned).
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      10-30-2009, 05:02 PM   #174
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Well said. A good indicator is seeing the prices of 2005 CTS-V. They are down the toilet at less than 70% of their original price.
That may be, but people on this forum have educated me about how bad the previous generation actually was, compared to the current model.

Edit: Wait a minute! Are you saying that the previous generation CTS-V only loses 30% of its value after five model years?

That's actually pretty damned good, I think, especially since that car was tragically flawed.
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      10-30-2009, 05:20 PM   #175
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That may be, but people on this forum have educated me about how bad the previous generation actually was, compared to the current model.

Edit: Wait a minute! Are you saying that the previous generation CTS-V only loses 30% of its value after five model years?

That's actually pretty damned good, I think, especially since that car was tragically flawed.
lol - i think that must be a typo - probably meant only worth 30% of the original value!

I know here you could buy a brand new CTS (not certain about the V) off the lot with about a 30% discount a few years ago - too many on the lot I think was the issue - so more than likely the V wouldnt fit that category, although I am sure that hurt the resale
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      10-30-2009, 05:29 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
lol - i think that must be a typo - probably meant only worth 30% of the original value!

I know here you could buy a brand new CTS (not certain about the V) off the lot with about a 30% discount a few years ago - too many on the lot I think was the issue - so more than likely the V wouldnt fit that category, although I am sure that hurt the resale
No, you can't compare the V pricing to the base CTS (with a std. V6) anymore than you can compare the M to the 328. The V is fairly limited production, much like the ZR1 and Z06 are to the std. C6.

None of us can know how the V will fare in resale value 4 years down the road, but there is no comparison between this version and the previous model. GM put a lot of effort and money into major engineering and parts upgrades. The suspension, brakes and drivetrain are all significantly upgraded and more expensive.

It deserves to be called a world-class sedan, because it is, but it does suffer from the GM stigma (unfairly). GM is building a number of world-class vehicles now.
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