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      10-30-2009, 11:53 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrupt23jj View Post
. . . thanks for shutting them up.
LOL . . . Really?
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      10-30-2009, 11:56 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
Comfortably quicker in the hands of Johnny O'Connell, an active ALMS driver, and John Heinricy - who is GM's equivalent of a Hans Stuck or a Walter Rohl.

Versus the time set by a kid off the street in his stock M3 whose sum total track experience is the Skip Barber Racing School.

Ouch.

Heinricy has raced professionally for GM many times. I watched him race a Corvette in the SCCA World Challenge about 15 years ago. I know that more recently he's also raced one of the CTS-V Speed World Challenge cars, too.

The facts are these -

Lutz arrogantly issued a challenge for all comers to bring their sedans to race the CTS-V with himself at the wheel, thinking it was going to be some kind of media coup for GM. Instead they got beaten by a random M3 owner and they had to call in their A team pro drivers in order to wipe the egg off of their faces.

tl;dr LOL GM
So, whadya think now, tough guy? Everything in this post turns out to be nonsense, and even the "kid off the street" and "random M3 owner" (chuckle) thinks the CTS-V is noticeably quicker than the M3.

As I said, this surprises me - but it appears to be that the giant CTS-V is comfortably quicker in the twisties than the less giant M3.

As a by the way, this isn't a putdown of the M3, because I am dead sure that it'll bring more smiles per mile on those early-Sunday-morning forays into the twisties than the Cadillac will - but DAMN!, that Caddy is fast and very, very luxurious as well.

Thumbs up for GM.

Edit: Oops! You're right about Heinricy being the equivalent of Stuck or Rohrl. Sorry.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 10-30-2009 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Spelling
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      10-30-2009, 12:00 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by the///Mthree View Post
Manual
OK, I'm ready, ("if only MC had been driving a . . .") where are you guys?
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      10-30-2009, 12:10 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
DSC/MDM vs. DSC off:
A fast driver is no slower with DSC, MDM or DSC off. It might be more fun with DSC off, but it is no faster. If you are sliding the car enough for the DSC to be interupting, then you are overdriving your tires. Tires generate maximum traction at well defined slip angles. Those slip angles are within the acceptable region of the DSC mapping.
The thing is that just because your tires start to lose traction (i.e. you are right near the limit), it doesn't mean you are driving improperly. You might just be pushing things extra hard at that moment, trying to just knock just a little more time off your lap. Or maybe the weather is a little different that day, or the tires were a little hotter that lap. The point is that there is still some fine level of trial-and-error involed when it comes to getting the car around the track the fastest. So when DSC is on you end up losing time more time as it cuts throttle than you would have it the tires were allowed to slip just a little more. Or, as noted above, your brakes get hotter because it applied the brakes a few times instead of just allowing the car to do as it would have otherwise.

What you say might be the case if the car was piloted perfectly by a robot that knew the precise optimal inputs to give the car for the theoretically maximum track time, taking into account all factors such as environment, the car's vitals, etc. But humans - even great drivers - make small mistakes. And sometimes the traction control - in its effort to correct those mistakes - costs too much time.
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      10-30-2009, 12:13 PM   #115
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Good sensible opinion from Joe, well said.

To Michael, nice showing. You must find all this discussion pretty amusing...
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      10-30-2009, 12:16 PM   #116
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I can't say that I agree with you Koesel. I think RJ is closer to correct. Competititive driving DSC settings that now come on many performance cars (such as the BMW version, MDM) allow quite a bit of slippage. Anything beyond that, and you're losing control and time.
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      10-30-2009, 12:27 PM   #117
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Good stuff, awesome job!

I did some 1st gear pulls with a 556HP CTSV recently, surprisingly they were very close.
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      10-30-2009, 12:32 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
I can't say that I agree with you Koesel. I think RJ is closer to correct. Competititive driving DSC settings that now come on many performance cars (such as the BMW version, MDM) allow quite a bit of slippage. Anything beyond that, and you're losing control and time.
Did I misread what he meant or did he say DSC on, off or MDM?
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      10-30-2009, 12:34 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
I can't say that I agree with you Koesel. I think RJ is closer to correct. Competititive driving DSC settings that now come on many performance cars (such as the BMW version, MDM) allow quite a bit of slippage. Anything beyond that, and you're losing control and time.
I would say that's true for many circumstances, but there are some corners where the object is not to get around this corner most efficiently, but to set the car up to get around the next corner most efficiently.

That is, this corner only leads to the next one, but the next one exits to a straight. Under those circumstances, this corner is a throw-away, and the next one is important. The on board electronic nannies can't know about that (yet). Capiche?

Bruce
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      10-30-2009, 12:40 PM   #120
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Here's my take. On such a short run (no endurance), I personally think age is not a factor at all. We're not talking reaction times like if a person jumps in front of you at night. They know where every curve is, so they don't have to anticipate anything. And even an 80-yr-old has the strenght to turn a power steering, push a power brake, etc. as effectively as the best of us IMO. So yes, experience trumps age all day long here.

I think it's not unexpected for a car with A TON more power (and even more torque), and a clearly superior power/weight ratio to lose on a track cleverly chosen to favor power over handling. I'm sure a more technical track would have brought more surprises.

This is the same crap as Ford's supposedly 'unbiased' NA V8 challenge at freaking 12K' of altitude with an FI V6 engine. And even then, the heavy BMW 550i kicked its a$$. Good day gang.
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      10-30-2009, 12:40 PM   #121
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^^^

Another good point Bruce.

I'll also add that even RJ admitted he's had one occasion where he had to disengage DSC. I guess you could driver around the whole track in MDM and switch it off on certain turns, but is it worth the distraction?
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      10-30-2009, 12:44 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Here's my take. On such a short run (no endurance), I personally think age is not a factor at all. We're not talking reaction times like if a person jumps in front of you at night. They know where every curve is, so they don't have to anticipate anything. And even an 80-yr-old has the strenght to turn a power steering, push a power brake, etc. as effectively as the best of us IMO. So yes, experience trumps age all day long here.
You would be wrong. Consult a professional.

Mr. Lutz was the only CTS-V driver who chose an automatic for a reason.
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      10-30-2009, 12:45 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I would say that's true for many circumstances, but there are some corners where the object is not to get around this corner most efficiently, but to set the car up to get around the next corner most efficiently.

That is, this corner only leads to the next one, but the next one exits to a straight. Under those circumstances, this corner is a throw-away, and the next one is important. The on board electronic nannies can't know about that (yet). Capiche?

Bruce
Your last is a very good point.
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      10-30-2009, 12:55 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
You would be wrong. Consult a professional.
We're talking STREET CARS, not race cars. And if at all, you're talking a few seconds, not minutes. The difference for all practical purposes has to be negligible.

And more than the opinion of a 'professional' (who are you going to ask? A young guy?), a test with 2 drivers at the same level of experience (one young, another old) driving the same car on the same track/conditions for one lap would be the only evidence that would change my mind on a STREET CAR. With a race car, and/or endurance in the equation is a no brainer, of course. Take care.
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      10-30-2009, 01:04 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
We're talking STREET CARS, not race cars. And if at all, you're talking a few seconds, not minutes. The difference for all practical purposes has to be negligible.

And more than the opinion of a 'professional' (who are you going to ask? A young guy?), a test with 2 drivers at the same level of experience (one young, another old) driving the same car on the same track/conditions for one lap would be the only evidence that would change my mind on a STREET CAR. With a race car, and/or endurance in the equation is a no brainer, of course. Take care.
By professional, I mean someone who is conversant with gerontology research (e.g. the effects and consequences of aging). You don't ask anyone--you test, and those tests are all over the literature.
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      10-30-2009, 01:05 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
OK, I'm ready, ("if only MC had been driving a . . .") where are you guys?
Its true though, If I had to guess I would say 1 second off the time for DCT
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      10-30-2009, 01:08 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by the///Mthree View Post
Its true though, If I had to guess I would say 1 second off the time for DCT
Yes, I know. You're probably right. It's just kind of an inside joke around here.
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      10-30-2009, 01:08 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the///Mthree View Post
Its true though, If I had to guess I would say 1 second off the time for DCT
/end M-DCT vs. Manual debate in this thread

please carry on in the 47 other threads though.
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      10-30-2009, 01:22 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I would say that's true for many circumstances, but there are some corners where the object is not to get around this corner most efficiently, but to set the car up to get around the next corner most efficiently.

That is, this corner only leads to the next one, but the next one exits to a straight. Under those circumstances, this corner is a throw-away, and the next one is important. The on board electronic nannies can't know about that (yet). Capiche?

Bruce
I agree with this. Note that I admit that I've had to turn off DSC before in order to improve my time. However, I believe this is the exception rather than the rule.
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      10-30-2009, 01:25 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
By professional, I mean someone who is conversant with gerontology research (e.g. the effects and consequences of aging). You don't ask anyone--you test, and those tests are all over the literature.
The test was this race...Lutz got beat by 10 secs by a pro in the same car...

However, Mr. Cooper also beat 2 other CTS-V by 1 and 3 secs...and lost two others by 1 and 1.5 secs...

http://cadillac.gmblogs.com/wp-conte...ge-Results.jpg

Clearly a drivers race...

I personally am proud of be Mr. Cooper and the M3...

Too bad there won't be a CTS-V after this generation...so this was a one of event
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      10-30-2009, 01:25 PM   #131
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I have never wanted to drive a Cadillac so bad like I want to drive the CTS-V now! Lets all be honest, for the kind of money you shell for these uber sedans, CTS-V got value and class in aces. Never mind I love BMW, the CTS-V is one hell of a car, that much I admit.
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      10-30-2009, 01:27 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
The test was this race...Lutz got beat by 10 secs by a pro in the same car...
Obviously, science is not your career path.
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