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      11-09-2009, 05:38 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
I was really referring to the how willing the car is to turn in and negotiate a corner at not more than eight tenths. Take a Cayman out on your favorite set of twisties, and compare it to your M3. Because of weight and polar moments, the Cayman will feel more willing to telepathically negotiate the twisty bits, although if you were flat out (as on a track), it wouldn't be any quicker, and in fact would be trickier as you explored the "How are you going to know where the edge is, if you don't step over it from time to time?" regions.

Perhaps "tossable" is a poor word to describe a characteristic when rolling at eight-tenths on the street. "Willing" or perhaps "eager" might be better terms.

Bruce
Though I would generally agree with you that almost all mid-engined cars are trickier at the limit the Cayman is probably as easy as the M3 to drive extremely quickly and is probably just as forgiving when you do over step the mark. A perfect example of this is wet track times, SportAuto wet handling test 1:29.1(Cayman S) vs 1:32.4 (M3) and Autocar Wet Handling Track 1:12.10 (Cayman S) vs 1:16.9 (M3), though this also highlights the added traction of the mid-engined chassis it also highlights how easy the Cayman is to control with limited grip.

Willingness is probably the better word to describe what you are trying to convey, i.e. the willingness of the nose to instantly reaction to your steering input. Though this is in part the reduced weight it has over the likes of the M3 it's as much to do with the suspension setup that the engineers want the car to behave like. It's like understeer/oversteer, any chassis can be setup to behave to one or other of these behaviours but it's safer to have it understeer on approaching the limit as most react by lifting throttle or braking which tightens the line, if the same thing is done while oversteering the react could be very different and with a possible disastrous outcome.
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      11-09-2009, 11:05 AM   #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Though I would generally agree with you that almost all mid-engined cars are trickier at the limit the Cayman is probably as easy as the M3 to drive extremely quickly and is probably just as forgiving when you do over step the mark. A perfect example of this is wet track times, SportAuto wet handling test 1:29.1(Cayman S) vs 1:32.4 (M3) and Autocar Wet Handling Track 1:12.10 (Cayman S) vs 1:16.9 (M3), though this also highlights the added traction of the mid-engined chassis it also highlights how easy the Cayman is to control with limited grip.
Sigh.

Foot, the reason I mentioned the M3 vs Cayman at the limit was partly because folks who have tracked both of these cars have told me this, but mostly as a bone to throw the multitudes of Faithful in this venue who are hair-trigger quick to take umbrage at a note that doesn't somehow seem positive, M3-wise, and thus hijack the (my) current topic in this string.

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Willingness is probably the better word to describe what you are trying to convey, i.e. the willingness of the nose to instantly reaction to your steering input. Though this is in part the reduced weight it has over the likes of the M3 it's as much to do with the suspension setup that the engineers want the car to behave like. It's like understeer/oversteer, any chassis can be setup to behave to one or other of these behaviours but it's safer to have it understeer on approaching the limit as most react by lifting throttle or braking which tightens the line, if the same thing is done while oversteering the react could be very different and with a possible disastrous outcome.
We could discuss the dozen or so things that will affect "willingness" in the twisties, but my central point was and is that weight (and wheelbase) affect the outcome from the driver's perspective.

Take the current M3, reduce its weight by, say, 400 pounds while adjusting spring and shocks rates accordingly (to keep the same roll and ride characteristics), and the car will be a relative delight in the twisties. Reduce its wheelbase by several inches and it will be even better.

For reasons of weight and wheelbase (mostly), our E36 felt more wieldy than our E46, and in my limited experience with the E9X, our E46 felt more wieldy than the new car for the same reasons.

So for me, each new M3 model is absolutely a better car than the preceding model, but less fun for me personally in the twisties. As far as I can tell, it's weight and size that makes this so.

Bruce
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      11-09-2009, 11:14 AM   #751
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Bimmerfile's lead story is that BMW has decided not to bring the GTS to the NA market... Garbage if you ask me. Not that I could have afforder it right now anyway....
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      11-09-2009, 11:24 AM   #752
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My God this car is going to own all... Anyone know if this will be at the LA Autoshow?

If not then imma make a quick stop in Germany to take a look at one of these in person before coming back to the States.
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      11-09-2009, 12:37 PM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Sigh.

Foot, the reason I mentioned the M3 vs Cayman at the limit was partly because folks who have tracked both of these cars have told me this, but mostly as a bone to throw the multitudes of Faithful in this venue who are hair-trigger quick to take umbrage at a note that doesn't somehow seem positive, M3-wise, and thus hijack the (my) current topic in this string.
Sorry Bruce, didn't intend to hijack the thread only to make the point that from my experience of the Cayman I felt it was among the best mid-engined cars with reference to ease of driving at the limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
We could discuss the dozen or so things that will affect "willingness" in the twisties, but my central point was and is that weight (and wheelbase) affect the outcome from the driver's perspective.

Take the current M3, reduce its weight by, say, 400 pounds while adjusting spring and shocks rates accordingly (to keep the same roll and ride characteristics), and the car will be a relative delight in the twisties. Reduce its wheelbase by several inches and it will be even better.

For reasons of weight and wheelbase (mostly), our E36 felt more wieldy than our E46, and in my limited experience with the E9X, our E46 felt more wieldy than the new car for the same reasons.

So for me, each new M3 model is absolutely a better car than the preceding model, but less fun for me personally in the twisties. As far as I can tell, it's weight and size that makes this so.

Bruce
Totally agree that weight and wheelbase play a major role in willingness to change direction, I was only adding that manufacturers chose to lessen this willingness with a healthy dose of understeer mainly because the level of grip generated by tyres and thus speed is now beyond the point where joe average has the reactions or skill to recover a car without this safety net.

I remember a conversion that one of the UK magazines had with a chief engineer from Audi where he stated that they could have made the A5 either understeer, oversteer or remain neutral but it was deemed by marketing that the car should understeer at the limit because that was familiar to the Audi faithful, though it was their intent to slowly change this behaviour. Basically my point is that they can make any car behave any way they want.
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      11-09-2009, 04:12 PM   #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Sorry Bruce, didn't intend to hijack the thread only to make the point that from my experience of the Cayman I felt it was among the best mid-engined cars with reference to ease of driving at the limit.



Totally agree that weight and wheelbase play a major role in willingness to change direction, I was only adding that manufacturers chose to lessen this willingness with a healthy dose of understeer mainly because the level of grip generated by tyres and thus speed is now beyond the point where joe average has the reactions or skill to recover a car without this safety net.

I remember a conversion that one of the UK magazines had with a chief engineer from Audi where he stated that they could have made the A5 either understeer, oversteer or remain neutral but it was deemed by marketing that the car should understeer at the limit because that was familiar to the Audi faithful, though it was their intent to slowly change this behaviour. Basically my point is that they can make any car behave any way they want.
Pretty much agree on everything, except manufacturers have been building understeer into their street products forever because it doesn't "feed on itself" the way oversteer does, thus sparing one the need for instant action or life gets almost instantly messy.

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      11-09-2009, 04:42 PM   #755
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Pretty much agree on everything, except manufacturers have been building understeer into their street products forever because it doesn't "feed on itself" the way oversteer does, thus sparing one the need for instant action or life gets almost instantly messy.

Bruce
Not every car understeers, I can think of a few though to be honest the list is getting ever smaller and I am sure it's all down to the constantly increasing cornering speeds.

Here's one for you Bruce, do you remember cross-ply rubber and the fun to be had at only 50 mph.
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      11-10-2009, 12:05 AM   #756
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Seems that a lot of these cars, as they get larger and heavier, are getting easier to drive. Better at dealing with poor road surfaces due to the fancy suspensions their weight necessitate and a longer wheelbase keeps things less twitchy.
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      11-10-2009, 08:01 AM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
...Here's one for you Bruce, do you remember cross-ply rubber and the fun to be had at only 50 mph.
Hell yes.

There really is something good about slow. Back when I was running our three-liter E36 on track days, one of my instructors said:

"Y'know, one of the things about these really quick cars with a lot of stick is that, when you do go off, you're going to be going really, really fast.

Best warning/piece of advice I ever got from an instructor.

Guys with Triumph Spitfires or early MGs know all about this. It's not the speed that counts, it's getting the most out of your car.

Bruce

PS - Anecdotally, I swear that with the rubber from those old days, if the wind got over 40 MPH, some cars would slide when parked.
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      11-10-2009, 10:19 AM   #758
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Disappointed

It looks like it's not coming to the states. I'm stuck with my regular M3 for now. http://www.m3post.com/forums/images/smilies/cry.gif
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      11-10-2009, 10:21 AM   #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Not every car understeers, I can think of a few though to be honest the list is getting ever smaller and I am sure it's all down to the constantly increasing cornering speeds.
Porsche got sued because the CGT oversteered and it didn't have traction control in the death of Mr. Keating at AAA speedway.
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      11-10-2009, 10:48 AM   #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Porsche got sued because the CGT oversteered and it didn't have traction control in the death of Mr. Keating at AAA speedway.
There was a lot more to that incident than oversteer.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...608_466074.htm
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      11-10-2009, 10:59 AM   #761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Hell yes.

There really is something good about slow. Back when I was running our three-liter E36 on track days, one of my instructors said:

"Y'know, one of the things about these really quick cars with a lot of stick is that, when you do go off, you're going to be going really, really fast.:
That's my point about understeer, I get the feeling from many members that they believe understeer is a bad thing in a road car. Quite the opposite is indeed the fact and this is down to the speeds that are now involved. A perfect example of this was my father Scenic, you probably have something similar over there, basically it came with flush door handles so they wouldn't scrap going round corners , anyway in that car the understeer would built from about 55mph is a certain corner near my home but in the M3 it was still as sweet as a nut at speeds well beyond what was sensible on public road if you know what I mean.

An off in the M3 for what ever reason at those speeds and the damage incurred would be vast, possibly life threatening in comparison to the Scenic. Understeer in your friend, no think of it as the instructor in the car next to you that tell you the limit of your car in the corner you have just entered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Best warning/piece of advice I ever got from an instructor.

Guys with Triumph Spitfires or early MGs know all about this. It's not the speed that counts, it's getting the most out of your car.

Bruce

PS - Anecdotally, I swear that with the rubber from those old days, if the wind got over 40 MPH, some cars would slide when parked.
It's one of the reasons why the Elise is such a treasured car among trackday users, it give all of the joy from little hp and less speed than most other specials. It's something that the British motor industry have done better than just about anyone else.

P.S.
The bit at the end cracked me up. I am probably young next to yourself but I have had enough experience with classic cars equipped with cross-plys as you will know that driving them on the track is like driving in the wet and with the surface covered in oil.
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      11-10-2009, 02:01 PM   #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
There was a lot more to that incident than oversteer.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...608_466074.htm
That I know, but they still had to pay out a small percentage because the lawyers were able to convince people the oversteer chacteristics contributed to the tradegy.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      11-10-2009, 03:49 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by aus View Post
That I know, but they still had to pay out a small percentage because the lawyers were able to convince people the oversteer chacteristics contributed to the tradegy.
Audi had a similar situation with the Mk1 TT. That is why I continue to say that understeer isn't solely the cause of a heavy nose, it's as much to do with the setup of the chassis, .......... as is oversteer.

P.S.
I would also say it's easier to get a payout in the US than it would have been else where.
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      11-10-2009, 05:06 PM   #764
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It would seem that the GTS has put up a first impression fast lap on the North Loop:
around 7:35 mins.
Anyone know more ?
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      11-10-2009, 05:18 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by Great White View Post
It would seem that the GTS has put up a first impression fast lap on the North Loop:
around 7:35 mins.
Anyone know more ?
News to me.

If true then it must be in the hands of BMW test drivers because the car is still too far off production for one of the magazines to get a proper test conducted.
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      11-11-2009, 04:09 PM   #766
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-

The M Gods have been good.
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      11-12-2009, 12:10 AM   #767
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so was that the 'Ring time?
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      11-12-2009, 03:23 AM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
News to me.

If true then it must be in the hands of BMW test drivers because the car is still too far off production for one of the magazines to get a proper test conducted.
7.40
and since all was told to me later as you know
was confirmed by facts, I would beleive also to this info...
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      11-12-2009, 03:50 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by savage.ulm1 View Post
7.40
and since all was told to me later as you know
was confirmed by facts, I would beleive also to this info...
I'm not doubting the time, only where the source is from. I haven't heard that Sportauto have tested it, nor confirmed the time so I am assuming that the time has been achieved by BMW testers and not by an independent source. That's all.

Savage, you also know that I too am well informed.
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      11-12-2009, 04:01 AM   #770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I'm not doubting the time, only where the source is from. I haven't heard that Sportauto have tested it, nor confirmed the time so I am assuming that the time has been achieved by BMW testers and not by an independent source. That's all.

Savage, you also know that I too am well informed.
I agree and it is simple to agree with you The car is still not delivered to anyone so this has to be a BMW test driver time. But like Porsche and Nissan or others. So interesting anyway. One day we will know the true also about Ring time...
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