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      11-07-2009, 12:58 AM   #705
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PG, interesting, but not terribly surprising. BMW truly would be clueless if they didn't hire marketing firms to test various markets.

However, if they hire a marketing firm with a clue and any scientific acumen, they will learn the market doesn't exist for this car in the US at it's likely price point. I would really LOVE to be proven wrong!

However, if I am wrong, it will ONLY be because the price is just a small increment above the current M3 offering, and not close to the numbers being tossed around as a likely US price. Plus $30-40K over the current M3 will simply not work in this country.

It is a very nice car, though, and I applaud the effort.
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      11-07-2009, 01:11 AM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Is BMW planning to bring the GTS to the US?

Of course not...right?

Today I received a very interesting call from a marketing research firm -- specifically calling about the BMW M3. Normally I would hang up on these folks, but this one seemed a little too coincidental with the introduction of the M3 GTS, so I decided to participate in the 45 minute survey!

I'd say at least 20-30% of all the questions could be construed as guaging public interest in bringing the M3 GTS to the US (even though it was never mentioned by name).
  • Do you track your car?
  • How important is it to track your car?
  • Would you like better brakes?
  • Is a luxurious interior important to you?
  • How important is a luxurious interior to you?
  • How important is it remove VMax?
  • Would you like adjustable aerodynamics in an M3?
Granted, these are only a small sampling of the questions. But just look at that list above. Do you want adjustable aerodymics in an M3? Do you want better brakes? Is important to you to be able to track your car? Do you want VMax removed?

Apparently, I was the only person who they've spoken to that had any idea what it meant to have VMax removed! They had no idea that it referred to the speed limiter. Once I explained it, the lady thought it would be very helpful to explain to future respondants.

They also seem to be very interested in my opinions on how the M3 compares to the AMG C63. Probably 30% of the survey was C63 related, and 30% could easily be construed as M3 GTS related.

Just thought you guys would want to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
They did ask some pricing questions too -- but very generic -- no actual numbers. Basically, they asked "when buying a car like the M3, how important is the price?"

And just in case, this was a survey about the M3 GTS, I made sure to give answers that would be in favor of the GTS.

Interior: not important. (1 of 1-10))
Adjustable aero: important (9)
Price: not important (2)

etc.
VERY, VERY, VERY interesting indeed......

Also, good thinking on how you answered the questions on importance, way to go PG, just another way you continue to support the forums, its members and their wants

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      11-07-2009, 02:05 AM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yeah foosh, I agree. As soon as you remove the back seat the M3 no longer holds any practical advantage over a proper two-seat sports car. Removing the back seat shaves weight - no doubt about that. But what shaves even more weight is starting with a clean sheet design that never had to accommodate a backseat to begin with.
+1. they should use the z4m coupe as the starting base. make it lighter and put the 4.4l v8 in there. I think the z4m coupe definitely has the look already. only thing it needs are weight, more power, better suspension and brake.
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      11-07-2009, 02:08 AM   #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
following up on the Boxster Spyder...

For all the automotive experts here: why is Porsche able to so "easily" bring all these special edition models to the US? For example the new 2800 lb Spyder with aluminum doors, altered suspension, lighter wheels, PCCB, higher output and bucket seats. Does the Spyder need to be recertified/tested (i.e. crash testings, emissions testing...)? At what point does a new version of a car need to be completely re-evaluated (how much modding can a manufacturer do)?

that's a good question. I wonder the same too.
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      11-07-2009, 02:18 AM   #709
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At what price point would you guys be interested? I'm thinking around $78,000 + Lux Tax, minus the rear seat delete/extinguisher, and cage but wtih A/C and a basic radio/cd or USB. It would also need more colors. Maybe Alpine White, Dakkar Yellow, Laguna Seca Blue along with the Orange?

The mounting points should be there ready for a cage and back seat delete if one wanted to get more like a GT3-RS.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      11-07-2009, 02:20 AM   #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
At what price point would you guys be interested? I'm thinking around $78,000 + Lux Tax, minus the rear seat delete/extinguisher, and cage but wtih A/C and a basic radio/cd or USB. It would also need more colors. Maybe Alpine White, Dakkar Yellow, Laguna Seca Blue along with the Orange?

The mounting points should be there ready for a cage and back seat delete if one wanted to get more like a GT3-RS.
at less than 80k. i think it is a bargain and many would buy it over a regular m3.
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      11-07-2009, 02:58 AM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
On the street, my feeling about the car is that it's less tossable than the E46 that graced our garage, which in turn was less tossable than the E36 that graced our garage.
...
I firmly believe that the current model is by far the quickest one around any track, but since I've quit instructing or even doing track days, that's of little consequence to me.
Can you define "tossable", I mean really define it. Cars are strange most sports cars, and sports sedans and the like keep getting heavier more powerful and more grippy, hence faster at the track. Does "tossable" translate to or correlate well with any true performance metric? You can see where I am getting the statements above seem to be a bit contradictory.
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      11-07-2009, 03:02 AM   #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Can you define "tossable", I mean really define it. Cars are strange most sports cars, and sports sedans and the like keep getting heavier more powerful and more grippy, hence faster at the track. Does "tossable" translate to or correlate well with any true performance metric? You can see where I am getting the statements above seem to be a bit contradictory.
tossable = feel.

has nothing to do with any performance metric other then how comfortable the driver feels pushing the car.

Doesn't seem contradictory to me at all. You have the speed of the car or lap time and then you have feel... and they can be independent of each other.

A really well setup car can tend to feel slow compared to something loose, even though the slower feeling car is much faster.
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      11-07-2009, 03:02 AM   #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Is BMW planning to bring the GTS to the US?

Of course not...right?

Today I received a very interesting call from a marketing research firm -- specifically calling about the BMW M3. Normally I would hang up on these folks, but this one seemed a little too coincidental with the introduction of the M3 GTS, so I decided to participate in the 45 minute survey!

I'd say at least 20-30% of all the questions could be construed as guaging public interest in bringing the M3 GTS to the US (even though it was never mentioned by name).
Unbelievable. But great. I would have said NO WAY it will come here but this makes it look like it is absolutely being considered. Crazy.
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      11-07-2009, 03:04 AM   #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
tossable = feel.

has nothing to do with any performance metric other then how comfortable the driver feels pushing the car.

Doesn't seem contradictory to me at all. You have the speed of the car or lap time and then you have feel... and they can be independent of each other.
I did ask Bruce.

I also asked for a precise definition and as such "feel" does not cut it very well. Later it sounds like you think tossable = comfort at the edge but to me those two seem like very different concepts.
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      11-07-2009, 03:46 AM   #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
following up on the Boxster Spyder...

For all the automotive experts here: why is Porsche able to so "easily" bring all these special edition models to the US? For example the new 2800 lb Spyder with aluminum doors, altered suspension, lighter wheels, PCCB, higher output and bucket seats. Does the Spyder need to be recertified/tested (i.e. crash testings, emissions testing...)? At what point does a new version of a car need to be completely re-evaluated (how much modding can a manufacturer do)?

Because Porsche is not lazy.
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      11-07-2009, 03:50 AM   #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I did ask Bruce.

I also asked for a precise definition and as such "feel" does not cut it very well. Later it sounds like you think tossable = comfort at the edge but to me those two seem like very different concepts.
tossable would focus more on how the car feels on turn in and transitions. Still not a contraindication.
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      11-07-2009, 03:59 AM   #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
At what price point would you guys be interested? I'm thinking around $78,000 + Lux Tax, minus the rear seat delete/extinguisher, and cage but wtih A/C and a basic radio/cd or USB. It would also need more colors. Maybe Alpine White, Dakkar Yellow, Laguna Seca Blue along with the Orange?

The mounting points should be there ready for a cage and back seat delete if one wanted to get more like a GT3-RS.
That sounds right around what I would pay. 78-84 range.
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      11-07-2009, 04:04 AM   #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Can you define "tossable".
To me it means how easily/quickly/precisely a car turns into a corner when ordered to do so. This was even more apparent during my motorcycle racing days and almost always was related to the weight and nimbleness of the bike. For example a Yamaha TZ 250 I raced equaled ~230lbs and would change direction effortlessly and nearly at the speed of thought. Very "tossable". On the other hand, a Suzuki GSXR 750 weighing in at 366 lbs took much more effort to get to change direction and turn in was not as sharp as the TZ. Not "tossable" IMO. Same logic can be applied to a car. Just my 2 cents.
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      11-07-2009, 04:10 AM   #719
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I have some performance estimates courtesy of CarTest (and regression analysis). I am assuming hp to actually be 455 (very well might be 460) and assuming torque of 325 ft lb. I also assumed the Cd (drag coef.) would increase from .31 to .34. Based on those figures I'm finding:

0-60 mph: 3.8s
0-100 mph: 8.4s
0-150 mph: 20s
1/4 mi: 11.9s @120 mph
Top speed: 185 mph (virtually unchanged compared to existing car)
N'Ring: 7:36 - 7:42 (will strongly depend on tires, driver, conditions, etc.)
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      11-07-2009, 04:16 AM   #720
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Great article here on the design of the Viper ACR aerodynamics. You can bet a similar effort went into the M3 GTS. This is one very concrete example of what an OEM can do that nearly no aftermarkets companies can or will. As I mentioned earlier the aero of the car is one thing you can't really match with aftermarket.
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      11-07-2009, 04:16 AM   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have some performance estimates courtesy of CarTest (and regression analysis). I am assuming hp to actually be 455 (very well might be 460) and assuming torque of 325 ft lb. I also assumed the Cd (drag coef.) would increase from .31 to .34. Based on those figures I'm finding:

0-60 mph: 3.8s
0-100 mph: 8.4s
0-150 mph: 20s
1/4 mi: 11.9s @120 mph
Top speed: 185 mph (virtually unchanged compared to existing car)
N'Ring: 7:36 - 7:42 (will strongly depend on tires, driver, conditions, etc.)
Wow. Impressive!
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      11-07-2009, 06:26 AM   #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Great White, perhaps I missed it, but no where have I seen BMW say they would "introduce it in the US and other markets starting in 2010." I saw them say "introduce it in other markets starting in 2010."

Bruce, great post! I couldn't agree more. I honestly don't think there is a US market even at a $100K price point, when you can get same or better performance with comfort features, for $70K, and under (e.g. C6 Z06).
Hi Foosh
I´m sorry you are correct it does say that in fact, however on the German MPW site there is a short article posted for customers of interest. As of summer 2010 the introduction is planned for other countries.
As to the comparison of the Z06.. sad but true to say that that car has by far made the greatest impression on me. It´s great and at the price it´s offered at over here I might consider one also.
BTW you have mail
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      11-07-2009, 08:58 AM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I have some performance estimates courtesy of CarTest (and regression analysis). I am assuming hp to actually be 455 (very well might be 460) and assuming torque of 325 ft lb. I also assumed the Cd (drag coef.) would increase from .31 to .34. Based on those figures I'm finding:

0-60 mph: 3.8s
0-100 mph: 8.4s
0-150 mph: 20s
1/4 mi: 11.9s @120 mph
Top speed: 185 mph (virtually unchanged compared to existing car)
N'Ring: 7:36 - 7:42 (will strongly depend on tires, driver, conditions, etc.)
Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers but did you run it with the right weight because the figure is based on DIN and you need to add 75kg.
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      11-07-2009, 10:55 AM   #724
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I would expect to be paying 50% more than a normal E92 M3 which would about $125000 in CDN $'s.If the car does become available in Canada,my dealer will have an order the same day.The only other cars that are in the same league IMO are the GT3 & GT3rs which equipped the way that I would order would start at over $155000 to $190000 for an RS.
I will order the 2 seat version with air & some sort of sound system and as it probally wont come with the roll bar in North America.It will not be a daily driver but will be driven to the trackdays and used for the odd local jount for those special drives that we all like.
At this price level it would be justified in my mind as I am not a big fan of modding in the aftermarket as you never acheive what a bunch of talented engineers can do in the proper corporate atmosphere.My present M3 is the best everyday car that I have had but is not hard core enough for the track days that I enjoy so much and do know to fix this comprimise,comes at quite a cost.
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      11-07-2009, 12:29 PM   #725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Is BMW planning to bring the GTS to the US?

Of course not...right?

Today I received a very interesting call from a marketing research firm -- specifically calling about the BMW M3. Normally I would hang up on these folks, but this one seemed a little too coincidental with the introduction of the M3 GTS, so I decided to participate in the 45 minute survey!
Do you know the name of the research firm that called? I've ignored calls recently that showed up on caller ID as some sort of research.
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      11-07-2009, 12:46 PM   #726
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If a M3 GTS is to expensive (still wait until it will be compared to the GT3/RS) than wait for the "M1" or 135i "CSL" based on the current 1 series Coupé (E82). It will blow up the Porsche Boxter Spyder. BMW M focalises on weight reduction of the current 135i than on power, so don't expect to get more than 360 hp, and I think it will also cost around 50.000 €. The most funny thing would be if the coming "M1"/135i "CSL" will not come to U.S.
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