BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-06-2009, 08:24 AM   #683
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,292
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smookey View Post
Levi,

Do you know when the car be ordered?
Which car? M3, M3 LCI, M3 GTS or M3 GTS LCI?
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 08:55 AM   #684
SUB-ZERO
Lieutenant Colonel
 
SUB-ZERO's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 997TT Arctic Silver
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: VA

Posts: 1,562
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Let's assume you're right about the non-stroker bolt-ons. The M3 GTS will still have a TON more torque (I'm speaking from my own stroker experience -- the stroker is a torque beast).

But then let's assume you wanted to build one for yourself -- stroker and all. Let's also assume the estimated $98,000 USD was a correctly correlated US price. From my stroker++ experience, I don't think you'll ever build that car for anywhere near $10000 of that $98,000 price. In fact, if $98k really were a correctly correlated US price, that's one incredible bargain for the car.

Car + Stroker alone is $98k (or more). Then you can easily add another $15k for the rest of the modifications. And even then, I don't think you'll come anywhere close to the 342 pound weight reduction that BMW got out of this car. That car is seriously impressive IMO.
I agree. If the price is $98k, it will be well worth it. Also, while one can possibly replicate the performance, there is no real way to replicate the exclusivity of owning such a gem.

The GTS is bad-ass already and it will only continue the get badder once all the specs come out. I can't wait to see some third-party testing and comparisons.

-SZ
SUB-ZERO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 10:20 AM   #685
smookey
Private First Class
 
smookey's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 E92 DKG SG
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: france

Posts: 113
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Which car? M3, M3 LCI, M3 GTS or M3 GTS LCI?
M3 GTS, and i meant: "when can we order it?"

Thank you
smookey is offline   France
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 11:27 AM   #686
FStop7
I like cars
 
FStop7's Avatar
 
Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Posts: 5,059
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moog55 View Post
i'm not an "industry insider" but i would think it's still too premature to conclusively write off the possibility of the car coming to the US.
Well, it definitely won't make it to the US as a street legal car without a few changes, starting with the seats.
__________________
FStop7 is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 11:31 AM   #687
linsm3
Lieutenant
 
Drives: E92 08 M3 AW
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago

Posts: 500
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUB-ZERO View Post
I agree. If the price is $98k, it will be well worth it. Also, while one can possibly replicate the performance, there is no real way to replicate the exclusivity of owning such a gem.

The GTS is bad-ass already and it will only continue the get badder once all the specs come out. I can't wait to see some third-party testing and comparisons.

-SZ
I have to agree in some respects, I am inching toward the amount above on the mods I have done and that doesn't include the Brembos I want or any performance stuff.
__________________
Vorsteiner front lip molded and painted no reflectors*type II diffuser*single side CF trunk*Blk grilles*side markers w/ dark tint*40% tint*H&R springs*Macht Schnell spacers*BBS-LM 19"*Eisenmann Racing*Hardwired Escort 9500ci radar/laser system*Brembo 380MM BBK*GIRLS RULE!
linsm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 11:54 AM   #688
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

Posts: 1,901
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KANdaddy View Post
Ummm.....there was a TON of potential CSL buyers here and BMW still did not bring that car here. The CSL would have flown off the showroom floors had it been sold in the US.
Not to pick on you in particular, but this is completely untrue.

BMW's experience with the Lightweight in '95 was and is applicable now, as well.

They brought them here, we stayed away in droves, and the reasons are pretty straightforward. Namely, we were asked to pay a substantial premium (at first) for a car that was stripped of most amenities. Yes, the car was faster in a straight line and on track, but you paid a price after the sale in the form of a basically uncomfortable car that became a narrow-focus, early-Sunday-morning ride, or a track car. As a track car, it was good, but certainly not awe inspiring. Thus, dismal sales. The market decided that the cars were worth about what a basic M3 cost (track coolness offset by limited practicality), so that's what they ended up selling for.

Flash forward to the CSL.

This was an even more serious car, priced that way, and damned near useless on the street, unless you happen to live in the Colorado mountains, where moderate temps and low humidity make the car bearable for three-season use. Or, a track car, and as such, even more serious than the lightweight. In addition, because of the significant mods (compared to the Lightweight), the car would have to be re-certified for U.S. use, which is way, way expensive and time consuming. In my opinion, this was the double whammy. A very restricted market and an expensive re-certification process.

So BMW (and BMW of America) couldn't make the numbers work. Finito.

Now, we have a car that is a heart-attack serious offering, for what will be serious money.

OK, what's the market in the U.S.A.?

The simple answer is that if they offer it for off-road use only (the easiest and least-expensive way to get it here), then dedicated racers and a few hard-core BMW "gotta-have-it" nuts will want one. Keep in mind that as a race car, it's likely to be non-competitive, although the SCCA can do whatever it wants in terms of classification.

In short, an extremely limited market, and not really worth the effort for the U.S., since BMW sells cars here based mostly on the fact that they are luxurious and very capable from behind the wheel. The halo effect from such a car would likely be minimal, from a marketing perspective.

Now, what if they were to offer it as a completely certified car for sale here?

The basic question would be, who would want one and why?

The car will be extremely noisy, rough-riding, and hot (or cold) to drive, with no amenities and an automatic. It will be about Z06 fast, but without the amenities that come standard on that car, not to mention the Vette's high-twenties highway mileage.

In short, I see the market as about the same as for a non-certified model.

Those in this forum who say they'd buy one - would you really? What would you use it for? Aside from sheer lust (which typically translates to no more than a one-night stand), could you enjoy such a car over the long haul?

I personally doubt it.

Don't get me wrong. I am very glad BMW is building this car, showing that they can be dead serious, and continuing the M3 model of outperforming its specs, just as the current street offering does.

Congrats to them, but don't go bitching about no U.S. offering unless you are willing to throw money instead of clapping. After all, the only reason the watered-down E36 made it here was because of a groundswell of need sent directly to BMW USA and BMW CCA.

Speaking of which, I think that bitching to BMW-alphabets will be the only way we'll get a "competition" model here - or at least a more sporty model than we now enjoy.

Drop down to yiour dealer and throw some money at him. Write BMW and CCA. Get involved.

As many folks know, I personally have problems with the current model mostly because of its size and weight, but if they do something like Porsche with the new Boxster offering, hell, I might be forced into raiding my much-depleted, shadow-of-its-former-self IRA. Who woulda thunk it?

Bruce
bruce.augenstein@comcast. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 12:28 PM   #689
NavM3
M-Sport
 
NavM3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 GT-R
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: DC area

Posts: 172
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Not to pick on you in particular, but this is completely untrue.

BMW's experience with the Lightweight in '95 was and is applicable now, as well.

......

Now, what if they were to offer it as a completely certified car for sale here?

.......

Bruce
Great post. Well said Bruce.
NavM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 12:39 PM   #690
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,201
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavM3 View Post
Great post. Well said Bruce.
+1
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 01:34 PM   #691
KANdaddy
Lieutenant Colonel
 
KANdaddy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Estoril 328i M Sport
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cali

Posts: 1,709
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NavM3 View Post
Great post. Well said Bruce.
+2
__________________
KANdaddy is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 01:41 PM   #692
FStop7
I like cars
 
FStop7's Avatar
 
Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Posts: 5,059
iTrader: (3)

So Porsche just blew BMW out of the water with the Boxster Roadster for less than half the price and similar performance - with the option of a 6 speed manual or 7 speed PDK, as well as the option of carbon ceramic brakes. And it's coming to the USA with a base price of only $61k.

Take notes, BMW. Porsche just showed you how a proper lightweight is done.
__________________
FStop7 is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 01:53 PM   #693
Great White
Second Lieutenant
 
Great White's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW M3 E92 DCT AW/PS
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Between Autobahn country & Swiss chocolates

Posts: 259
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2000 M5 E39  [5.00]
2008 M3 E92  [0.00]
2002 318i Compact  [0.00]
No offense meant but...

Hi Bruce
just wanted to make a couple comments to state the nature of this or any Sport car

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post

In short, an extremely limited market, and not really worth the effort for the U.S., since BMW sells cars here based mostly on the fact that they are luxurious and very capable from behind the wheel. The halo effect from such a car would likely be minimal, from a marketing perspective.

Then why would BMW state that as of summer 2010 they want to introduce the car to the US and other non European countries ? The effect that this car brings along with it will most likely boost sales on the normal M3 if you ask me. Letīs not forget that this series of M3 ( 4 ltr or 4,4ltr) is most likely going to be the only & last N/A V8 ever to hit an M3 and that alone is a reason for purchase

Now, what if they were to offer it as a completely certified car for sale here?
The certification is being investigated as we write but these things take time & if everything works out it will happen

The basic question would be, who would want one and why?
Ask that to any Ferrari, Lamborghini or any sport car owner

The car will be extremely noisy, rough-riding, and hot (or cold) to drive, with no amenities A Porsche GT3 RS follows the same concept & look at the sales and an automatic. It will be about Z06 fast, but without the amenities that come standard on that car, not to mention the Vette's high-twenties highway mileage. Enjoy the low Gasprices over there for as long as you have them.. try filling your tank on the roads over here, anyways I bought an M3 not a Toyota Prius so I really couldnīt care less

In short, I see the market as about the same as for a non-certified model.

Those in this forum who say they'd buy one - would you really? Are you serious ? If this car had come out 1 year earlier !! It would be im my Garage by now BUT this is a question that has to be asked ! I am seriously looking into a change, all depending on how much my car would still be worth if I were to trade it in..What would you use it for? Aside from sheer lust (which typically translates to no more than a one-night stand), could you enjoy such a car over the long haul? An M is no one night stand. I think we all know this but again I state as painfull as it might be a long haul over here is a matter of a five hour drive with a car like that and bearing the streets are free, in any car after a certain time any butt will sore up if you drive too long. The most comfortable bed still becomes a pain in the ss if you lay too long

Not meaning to be unkind here now but you do have a point. I wouldnīt expect anyone over there to seriously consider buying because you legally rearly have the possibility to drive one as itīs meant to be driven but then again you can hardly drive any real sport car faster than 75 mph apart from on the German Autobahns

Don't get me wrong. I am very glad BMW is building this car, showing that they can be dead serious, and continuing the M3 model of outperforming its specs, just as the current street offering does.

Congrats to them, but don't go bitching about no U.S. offering unless you are willing to throw money instead of clapping. After all, the only reason the watered-down E36 made it here was because of a groundswell of need sent directly to BMW USA and BMW CCA.

Speaking of which, I think that bitching to BMW-alphabets will be the only way we'll get a "competition" model here - or at least a more sporty model than we now enjoy. Believe me Bruce, M asked us (M.owners in the M-Power world) if they were to build a new M- CSL/GT/ racer what our wishes would be in matters of all developement points & we gave it to them ! Every striking thing we could think of !! And after 1 1/2 years this is the result that not even we hoped to expect
So if enough truely interested buyers go to your dealerships and rant and rave & even work out a prelimanary contract of purchase you will most likely get exactly that what you asked for: the new & real BMW M3 GTS !! Donīt give up !


Drop down to your dealer and throw some money at him. Write BMW and CCA. Get involved.Right ! march down and kick some serious *** !!! Move people !! The more you demand the quicker it will get done

As many folks know, I personally have problems with the current model mostly because of its size and weight,This is something I canīt quite follow you on? I do a great 8:30 mins. BTG on the world renound Northloop (once even 8:01 !!) which even the Ring Taxi drivers say is a fantastic time even for an M3 E92 and Iīm almost fully loaded (even with sunroof), so what IYO do you hate about the car ? but if they do something like Porsche with the new Boxster offering, hell, I might be forced into raiding my much-depleted, shadow-of-its-former-self IRA. Who woulda thunk it?Youīre almost begging me to scream : you canīt drive but I do not know your skills or what preferences you aspire so try to bear with my stupidity

Bruce
Chris
__________________
Great White is offline   Switzerland
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 02:01 PM   #694
Great White
Second Lieutenant
 
Great White's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW M3 E92 DCT AW/PS
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Between Autobahn country & Swiss chocolates

Posts: 259
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2000 M5 E39  [5.00]
2008 M3 E92  [0.00]
2002 318i Compact  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
So Porsche just blew BMW out of the water with the Boxster Roadster for less than half the price and similar performance - with the option of a 6 speed manual or 7 speed PDK, as well as the option of carbon ceramic brakes. And it's coming to the USA with a base price of only $61k.

Take notes, BMW. Porsche just showed you how a proper lightweight is done.
any link ?
__________________
Great White is offline   Switzerland
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 02:04 PM   #695
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
 
southlight's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

Posts: 6,748
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
...M3 GTS or M3 GTS LCI?
Remember this car will be available from May 2010 on, so likely there won't be a GTS without the LCI 'treatment'.


Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
southlight is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 02:26 PM   #696
SUB-ZERO
Lieutenant Colonel
 
SUB-ZERO's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 997TT Arctic Silver
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: VA

Posts: 1,562
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
So Porsche just blew BMW out of the water with the Boxster Roadster for less than half the price and similar performance - with the option of a 6 speed manual or 7 speed PDK, as well as the option of carbon ceramic brakes. And it's coming to the USA with a base price of only $61k.

Take notes, BMW. Porsche just showed you how a proper lightweight is done.
How can you compare a Cockster with the M3 GTS? The GTS will compete with a GT3/GT3 RS.

-SZ
SUB-ZERO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 03:16 PM   #697
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Bruce,

As always you have a wonderful way of cutting through the BS and saying it as it is.

Chris,

I think you are wrong that it would fly off the showroom floor, especially if 99% of the comments from members on this forum are true. The reason I say this is the constant referring the other competitors brands being way over priced compared to BMW equivalents. What I get from those comments is that if BMW were the dearest then quite a few wouldn't be driving a Beemer, so chances are that if the GTS came to the States it would only sell in the very limited numbers that the rest of the world will buy, maybe less with the US economy being in an even worth state.

I believe BMW know their products better than anyone else.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 03:29 PM   #698
rzm3
Moderator
 
rzm3's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA

Posts: 4,601
iTrader: (14)

following up on the Boxster Spyder...

For all the automotive experts here: why is Porsche able to so "easily" bring all these special edition models to the US? For example the new 2800 lb Spyder with aluminum doors, altered suspension, lighter wheels, PCCB, higher output and bucket seats. Does the Spyder need to be recertified/tested (i.e. crash testings, emissions testing...)? At what point does a new version of a car need to be completely re-evaluated (how much modding can a manufacturer do)?

__________________
E92 M3 DCT - AiM EVO4 Data Logger / AiM SmartyCam HD / KW Competition 2-Way / OMP ARS Racing Seats / Brembo GT 365 / Pagid Yellow RS-29 / Rear Seats Delete
rzm3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 03:55 PM   #699
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

Posts: 1,901
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great White View Post
Hi Bruce
just wanted to make a couple comments to state the nature of this or any Sport car

Chris
I'll just respond to your comments about the M3 being seriously fast on track, and thus your confusion re my bitching about its size and weight.

I personally have complete faith in the on-track abilities of the current M3 (except perhaps for the brakes), but that's not my issue.

On the street, my feeling about the car is that it's less tossable than the E46 that graced our garage, which in turn was less tossable than the E36 that graced our garage.

It's arguably a terrific car, but to me, it just feels big and heavy - and less tossable than the 128 I drove after sampling the M3 for the first time, or even the 135 I drove after sampling the M3 for the second time.

It's a better car than the E46, but for me it's less fun to drive, as was the E46 compared to the E36.

I have little doubt that I'd feel the same way about our E36 if I had driven the E30 model first.

I firmly believe that the current model is by far the quickest one around any track, but since I've quit instructing or even doing track days, that's of little consequence to me.

In my personal opinion, smaller and lighter is always more fun than bigger and heavier, no matter the lap times.

My favorite track car ever was my '98 ACR Neon, ferchrissake. Of course it was a piece of crap, but on track, an absolute killer.

Not saying anybody else should feel the way I do - especially since I don't give a damn about my "image", and I know that's important to most.

Image:

Neon: Low-rent trailer-park car (since nobody has a clue about how serious ACR cars were and are).

M3: Somewhat apropos of Jeremy Clarkson, what happens when an M3 driver takes Viagra?

He gets taller.

OK, OK, I heard that as both a lawyer joke and a Porsche driver joke, so use it any way you like.

Damned funny, though.

Bruce
bruce.augenstein@comcast. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 04:02 PM   #700
Moxie
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Moxie's Avatar
 
Drives: AW 328d Touring/SG 335d
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart

Posts: 1,859
iTrader: (11)

Just because it's expected to be listed @ 119K euro in Germany, don't think it's gonna be near that in USD. I saw a 2010 E92 on the showroom for 92K Euro along with a 2009 AW special edition marked down from 119K euro to 92k Euro. I maybe wrong but I'm thinking if this comes to the States, this is gonna go for somewhere around the high $70's to low $80's MSRP.
Moxie is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 04:14 PM   #701
foosh
Major
 
foosh's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3 E93
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD

Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

Great White, perhaps I missed it, but no where have I seen BMW say they would "introduce it in the US and other markets starting in 2010." I saw them say "introduce it in other markets starting in 2010."

Bruce, great post! I couldn't agree more. I honestly don't think there is a US market even at a $100K price point, when you can get same or better performance with comfort features, for $70K, and under (e.g. C6 Z06).
__________________
foosh is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 05:18 PM   #702
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

Posts: 1,901
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Great White, perhaps I missed it, but no where have I seen BMW say they would "introduce it in the US and other markets starting in 2010." I saw them say "introduce it in other markets starting in 2010."

Bruce, great post! I couldn't agree more. I honestly don't think there is a US market even at a $100K price point, when you can get same or better performance with comfort features, for $70K, and under (e.g. C6 Z06).
Thank you, but I must say I hope I'm wrong. Cool car.

Bruce
bruce.augenstein@comcast. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 05:27 PM   #703
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 SO/CSAT F80 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,744
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Bruce, great post! I couldn't agree more. I honestly don't think there is a US market even at a $100K price point, when you can get same or better performance with comfort features, for $70K, and under (e.g. C6 Z06).
Yeah foosh, I agree. As soon as you remove the back seat the M3 no longer holds any practical advantage over a proper two-seat sports car. Removing the back seat shaves weight - no doubt about that. But what shaves even more weight is starting with a clean sheet design that never had to accommodate a backseat to begin with.
__________________
A gen-u-ine BMW eff-eight-zero with them tandem clutches in the transmission and that dad gum sun roof on the top-a da cawr.
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-06-2009, 06:05 PM   #704
FStop7
I like cars
 
FStop7's Avatar
 
Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Posts: 5,059
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Yeah foosh, I agree. As soon as you remove the back seat the M3 no longer holds any practical advantage over a proper two-seat sports car. Removing the back seat shaves weight - no doubt about that. But what shaves even more weight is starting with a clean sheet design that never had to accommodate a backseat to begin with.
Exactly. that's where the engine should go if there are no back seats...
__________________
FStop7 is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:37 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST