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      11-04-2009, 11:17 AM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
That's only true if 99% of your time is spent on the track. Otherwise the turbo is the way to go and for a few reasons.

1: Motorway journeys are less tiresome, due to the longer gearing.

2: Torque is always your friend on the road, where as hp is only your friend at the limit.

3: Economy is superior with the turbo as is emissions.

4: It ain't really that much slower on the track, regardless of what the figures say. In reality 99% of people will never be any quicker or capable to find the limits of either car.
You're almost 100% right here which is why no one complains about the 335i being FI.

But don't lessen the negatives FI systems inherently have.
1) they add weight
2) they add complexity
3) Always going to have lag
4) higher operating temps

Give me the choice of FI or NA on a performance car and IMO NA wins out.
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      11-04-2009, 11:30 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
The Mustangs used in Koni Challenge are the 5.0L cammer motors which are not available in any production Mustang.This would open the door for BMW to race a 4.4 L version of the S65.The cars are equalized through weight & allowed modifications.The FR500 is sold for $125000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_FR500


Thanks for the clarification and education. I was aware of the FR500 version, but not of all the specifics, having not really paid attention to it before. Most of all, I've become curious about the homologation rules.
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      11-04-2009, 11:32 AM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
You're almost 100% right here which is why no one complains about the 335i being FI.

But don't lessen the negatives FI systems inherently have.
1) they add weight
2) they add complexity
3) Always going to have lag
4) higher operating temps

Give me the choice of FI or NA on a performance car and IMO NA wins out.
Please let me counter this.

1/ the weight........yes they add a bit of weight, approximately 20Kg depending of configuration and all in the engine bay. Now on the track in the hands of a professional that will show ever so slightly in cornering ability, but in the hands of the rest it will go by unnoticed. Oh I forgot, everyone here is a professional.

2/ Complexity.........yes they are more complex but counter this by being less highly stressed due to less revs.

3/ Lag..........again it's an over played thing by people. On the track it can be an issue but in 99% of situations you should already be on the throttle on entering a corner to balance the chassis so the lag isn't there. On the road you will notice lag more but with the improvement seen in recent years and my own experience with some of the best examples I say it's not an issue anymore.

4/Heat.........this is the one thing that can't be tossed aside like the rest, heat is a problem but until you really up the gain on the engine (i.e. tune it from stock) then they will suffer zero problems. That's what all that hot weather testing in deserts is for.

If you prefer N/A then look else where, especially if the product comes from Europe because we here are committed to lowering the CO2 levels and the only way to achieve this is through the adoption of advanced technologies of which FI is one of them.
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      11-04-2009, 12:16 PM   #510
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turbo lag is veryyyyy minimal these days
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      11-04-2009, 12:19 PM   #511
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Oh puhlease, for the love of God!!!! It cannot be dismissed like "oh turbo lag is not a big deal" You are making it sound like turbo offers everything an N/A engine can, which is pure ignorance and biased opinion. Throttle response and sensitivity is what makes N/A engines (especially high-revving engines) completely unparalleled. The best example I can give is of the Porsche 911 Turbo 997 vs Porsche 911 GT3 RS.

Watching video of one-and-only Walter Rohrl comparing the Turbo with GT3 RS, despite Porsche's hectic efforts of reducing the turbo lag using VTG (Variable Turbine Geometry), even their own developer, tester and engineer of Porsche cars clearly stated that the turbo lag and absence of the throttle response of the GT3 RS due to turbo lag are two of the primary factors he would prefer the GT3 RS over 911 Turbo on the track any day. He explicitly explained how the turbo hits full boost hard abrupty mid-corner completely unpredictably due to lag making the turbo much less confidence inspiring while the GT3 RS has the throttle response of surgical precision that does exactly what it is told at exactly the right time. That is what N/A high-revving engines are all about. When we are talking rapid throttle changes across a wider rev range, N/A engines just simply cannot be matched by turbo engines. If Walter himself admitted that it is there and definitely hampers one's ability to carry speed and modulate the throttle through a corner, there is no reason to argue that "oh turbo lag is not a big deal"

Turbochargers have lag and it does affect their predictability and response duration and there are no two ways about it.


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Originally Posted by footie View Post
3/ Lag..........again it's an over played thing by people. On the track it can be an issue but in 99% of situations you should already be on the throttle on entering a corner to balance the chassis so the lag isn't there. On the road you will notice lag more but with the improvement seen in recent years and my own experience with some of the best examples I say it's not an issue anymore..
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      11-04-2009, 12:31 PM   #512
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The name is M3 GTS

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      11-04-2009, 12:34 PM   #513
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Subframe hard bushes
Mega front lip
Rear deck spoiler
Markrolon rear window




And the colour is sick
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      11-04-2009, 12:34 PM   #514
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[u2b]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7G6K-i4soQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7G6K-i4soQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/u2b]

More info: https://www.m-power.com/_open/b/home.jsp?lang=en
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      11-04-2009, 12:40 PM   #515
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[u2b]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7G6K-i4soQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7G6K-i4soQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/u2b]

More info: https://www.m-power.com/_open/b/home.jsp?lang=en
Wow....very cool!
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      11-04-2009, 12:40 PM   #516
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Interesting! Uber M3 edition for those hardercore M fanatics =]
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      11-04-2009, 12:41 PM   #517
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All I have to say is:

I hope the wing on this car will not create a following as the CSL trunk of the E46 did. I do understand that the CSL trunk was more subtle, but I pray that I don't see M3s with this stuff on, unless it's a real GTS.

Oh, and the GTS is pretty sick!
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      11-04-2009, 12:42 PM   #518
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Picture from the above link. Nice find!

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      11-04-2009, 12:42 PM   #519
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I wonder how much the brakes and exhausts costs hehe.
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      11-04-2009, 12:47 PM   #520
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Exclamation Ladies & Gents : The New BMW M3 GTS

Its official now ! The new M3 E92 (CSL) is called GTS !!
specifics taken from the M Power World:

450 BHP
1490 kg
6 / 4 piston brake system
6 point harness
255 35 19 F
285 30 19 R
Rollbar behind the front seats ( only 2 seats )
Front splitter and
Spoiler ( adjustable )
Fire hydrant
Racing combo with helmet
wicked orange !!!!
M3 GTS FTW
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      11-04-2009, 12:56 PM   #521
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7.28 lb/HP Not too shabby, pretty much same power to weight ratio as a gt3rs.

BTW I don't know if anyone else saw this... but dr. kay segler (head of ///M) said this in an interview about the new m3 gts

"This is why a product below the BMW M3 more important to me than a super sports car which is only accessible to a few. As I have already mentioned in other interviews, we are currently looking closely at the options in this area. I hope to be able to tell you more the next time we speak."

Looks like we are going to an M version of the 1 series next.

https://www.m-power.com/_open/b/edit...lang=en&x=2021
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      11-04-2009, 12:58 PM   #522
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'd definitely prefer the RS (well, assuming I was going for the fun vs. practicality), but I just don't think straight line performance would be too close, even though PTW favors the RS, due to the Turbo's AWD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
The new 997.2 GT3 RS makes 450 HP to turbo's 500 HP, but is a lot lighter. It also has much more shorter gearing. The power-to-weight works in the GT3 RS advantage. Still, I know the turbo has more torque, which is why I said they are a lot closer than before.

The turbo revs up to only 6700 rpm vs GT3 and GT3 RS up to 8800 rpm. Sound, excitement and thrill wise, turbo has nothing on the GT3 or GT3 RS.
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      11-04-2009, 01:01 PM   #523
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So 3250 lbs is how much it will weigh. I was expecting it to be around that much when everyone was saying BMW would be lucky to shave off even a 100 KG. Looks like they have shaved a whole lot more than just 220 lbs. More like 400 lbs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Great White View Post
Its official now ! The new M3 E92 (CSL) is called GTS !!
specifics taken from the M Power World:

450 BHP
1490 kg
6 / 4 piston brake system
6 point harness
255 35 19 F
285 30 19 R
Rollbar behind the front seats ( only 2 seats )
Front splitter and
Spoiler ( adjustable )
Fire hydrant
Racing combo with helmet
wicked orange !!!!
M3 GTS FTW
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      11-04-2009, 01:04 PM   #524
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Some translations as Im reading from the German site

the question posed at Mr. Markus Schadow (aerodynamic developer at M): How fast will it do a round on the North Loop? He laughed and said
"be prepared to be surprised !"
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      11-04-2009, 01:12 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
So 3250 lbs is how much it will weigh. I was expecting it to be around that much when everyone was saying BMW would be lucky to shave off even a 100 KG. Looks like they have shaved a whole lot more than just 220 lbs. More like 400 lbs.
Ive seen the car at the Loop a few times but didnt write anything about it as Ive been screwed up by some "Stupid Users" before saying attention slut over private mails but when Savage wrote the first post I decided to communicate with him and told him that they were going to present it either today or tommorow, weve traded some thoughts since then..
@ Savage.Ulm we were right up on it
thanks to all the doubting thomass out there and their great comments
@ South: next time Ill keep you posted too
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      11-04-2009, 01:13 PM   #526
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Somebody quick, copy that front splitter and sell it as a cheap replica!!

I want it!
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      11-04-2009, 01:13 PM   #527
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GTS weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
So 3250 lbs is how much it will weigh.
That actually converts to 3,285 lb. Still close to 300 lb reduction, depending on which stock figures you use and how this one was measured.
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      11-04-2009, 01:15 PM   #528
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moar pics

https://www.m-power.com/_open/b/edit...d=2022&lang=en











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