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      11-03-2009, 03:49 PM   #463
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Also, if you think all it takes is weight reduction and an adjustable suspension to make an M3 drive anything like a GT3, you are high. As high as a kite. The 997 GT3 is the most brilliant car I've ever driven. My M3 feels like a wallowing, soft boat in comparison. No amount of suspension stiffening or weight reduction can change that. It runs much deeper, and you can only understand it once you've driven the car.
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      11-03-2009, 03:50 PM   #464
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guys, you're already going to put it along the gt3, and so much speculation going on about weight, price, everything, we should wait until BMW announces the final product with the right specs
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      11-03-2009, 03:51 PM   #465
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Agreed. BMW has the ambitious plans to bring torquey, low-revving, two-ton plus M cars to America. BMW realizes how to have the best success in America, which is why M division is revolutionizing. It has already begun with the X5 M and X6 M tanks. The next M5 would be "super light" at only 4500 lbs. I think it might be a way for M division to combat obesity in US.

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We can't say BMW hasn't the balls. They did have the balls to build 2 4WD, FI SUV/SAV's, the X5 and X6 M.
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      11-03-2009, 03:55 PM   #466
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Where did you get the 997.1 GT3 weight figure of 3000 on the dot??? That is completely incorrect.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...w/specs_page_2

It actually was well over 3200 lbs in a track test so the M3 GT4 will have both a better power-to-weight and torque-to-weight than the 997.1 GT3.

GT3 997.1 pwr: 3250/415 = 7.8 lbs/HP
M3 GT4 pwr: 3200 - 3300 lbs (estimate)/450 = 7.1 - 7.3 lbs/HP

The M3 GT4 will most likely be capable of running ~7:35 around Nurburgring. The E46 CSL ran a 7:50 with only 355 HP so I highly doubt the GT4 with 100 more HP will only be 10 seconds quicker.
The Mk2 GT3RS weighs only 3014lbs and has 450hp (i.e. even better PTW and superior traction) and laps in 7:33 and that time was achieved by none other than Walter himself, lets wait and see what Horst achieves in Sportauto's supertest. And you reckon that BMW's own estimates are wrong and it will actually go even quicker and this is based on the old CSL with 100hp less doing the same lap 10 seconds slower.

I bow to your better judgement.

But seriously, there is a world of difference than just throwing more power at something and expecting huge improvement in lap time, and truth me 10 seconds is a really big deal. If a GT4 does the 7:40 time that BMW estimates in the hands of Horst then I reckon BMW have done a wonderful job.
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      11-03-2009, 03:55 PM   #467
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For sure its a good sportcar, or better trackcar.
I'd just prefer yellow instead of red.
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      11-03-2009, 04:07 PM   #468
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My comparison was with 997.1 GT3 and not 997.2 GT3 since I only know the official lap times of 997.1 GT3 and RS. 997.1 GT3 was 3250 lbs with 415 HP and 7:40 lap time.


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The Mk2 GT3RS weighs only 3014lbs and has 450hp (i.e. even better PTW and superior traction) and laps in 7:33 and that time was achieved by none other than Walter himself, lets wait and see what Horst achieves in Sportauto's supertest. And you reckon that BMW's own estimates are wrong and it will actually go even quicker and this is based on the old CSL with 100hp less doing the same lap 10 seconds slower.

I bow to your better judgement.

But seriously, there is a world of difference than just throwing more power at something and expecting huge improvement in lap time, and truth me 10 seconds is a really big deal. If a GT4 does the 7:40 time that BMW estimates in the hands of Horst then I reckon BMW have done a wonderful job.
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      11-03-2009, 04:26 PM   #469
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I feel like a kid at Christmas.
Savage, if we guess will you tell? LOL
Are you referring to the M3 Wagon?
Manhart Racing, built a V10 version, check it out here
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      11-03-2009, 04:34 PM   #470
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People need to realize that many companies such as Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Audi represent their curb weights in a different way than most companies such as BMW, which is quite deceptive and probably intentional. For instance I'm sure most of you have come across the official numbers stating that the RS4 weights the same or less than the M3, something that is obviously not correct if you use common sense knowing there is no way it weighs even close with its AWD system. No matter how much you want to believe the "official numbers" you often have to find independent sources for curb weight.

Here is the weight for the US spec GT3 RS: http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d..._RT911_GT3.pdf
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      11-03-2009, 04:37 PM   #471
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Quote:
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Remember the M3 is a 3 series and not a real sportcar with two seats as the 911 or F430/458I are.
911 has rear seats.

Also, 911 GT3 997.2 does the ring in 7:40. GT3RS is reported to accomplish the feat in 7:33.

Finally, a lowered, stiffened, stripped out M3 that has the same HP as the standard model yet costs more than the standard model absolutely WILL NOT SELL in the U.S. I've talked with several senior BMW sales guys about this. Nor is it likely to do the green hell 25 seconds faster than the standard model. Look at the above GT3 times for general power-to-weight benchmarks.

I think an M3 with more power (more importantly, more low end torque), somewhat lightened but with most of the luxury items as options could actually sell here but I don't know if BMW would make enough money off it for it to make sense for them.
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      11-03-2009, 04:55 PM   #472
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The 997.1 GT3 did it in 7:40 so I highly doubt the 997.2 will do it in the same time as it has been improved in just about every single area. It is lighter as well. 7:35 - 7:38 looks more realistic for 997.2 GT3. I have even heard that 997.2 GT3 RS is capable of going under 7:30.

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911 has rear seats.

Also, 911 GT3 997.2 does the ring in 7:40. GT3RS is reported to accomplish the feat in 7:33.

.
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      11-03-2009, 05:12 PM   #473
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Sometimes I wish the Nurburgring didn't exist, because using it as a comparison tool is so wrong. It's a great place for manufacturers to test cars, but it's so varied that comparing times from one day to the next (or even one hour to the next) is useless. And laptimes are only a small part of the story when it comes to what a car is like to drive.
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      11-03-2009, 05:17 PM   #474
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Quote:
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Sometimes I wish the Nurburgring didn't exist, because using it as a comparison tool is so wrong. It's a great place for manufacturers to test cars, but it's so varied that comparing times from one day to the next (or even one hour to the next) is useless. And laptimes are only a small part of the story when it comes to what a car is like to drive.
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      11-03-2009, 05:18 PM   #475
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Quote:
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Sometimes I wish the Nurburgring didn't exist, because using it as a comparison tool is so wrong. It's a great place for manufacturers to test cars, but it's so varied that comparing times from one day to the next (or even one hour to the next) is useless. And laptimes are only a small part of the story when it comes to what a car is like to drive.
Yep, the variables are endless, and on a track that long they are magnified. Actually, I'm not sure 10 seconds means that much.
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      11-03-2009, 05:35 PM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
Sometimes I wish the Nurburgring didn't exist, because using it as a comparison tool is so wrong. It's a great place for manufacturers to test cars, but it's so varied that comparing times from one day to the next (or even one hour to the next) is useless. And laptimes are only a small part of the story when it comes to what a car is like to drive.

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      11-03-2009, 05:45 PM   #477
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just waitin' to see the product released! after that and some good tests we can speak about the fact of being better or not vs a porsche gt3!
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      11-03-2009, 05:56 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
Sometimes I wish the Nurburgring didn't exist, because using it as a comparison tool is so wrong. It's a great place for manufacturers to test cars, but it's so varied that comparing times from one day to the next (or even one hour to the next) is useless. And laptimes are only a small part of the story when it comes to what a car is like to drive.
I keep saying the same thing, for as long as I have posted on here yet people still consider the times achieved on the ring as gospel and proof that one car is quicker than another. The N-ring is a tool for developing suspension setting and little else, sure it's the ultimate track but it varies so much for minute to minute that no two laps are the same.

I hope it actually gets built and finally gets compared to the GT3RS to see how well BMW have done. I reckon the GT4 will be a brilliant product for semi-professional drivers that regularly track their cars either in club events or simply for fun, but I doubt it will be a product I would want to drive regularly on the road in the same way as I would want the drive a GT3RS daily.
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      11-03-2009, 06:06 PM   #479
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I feel like a kid at Christmas.
Savage, if we guess will you tell? LOL
Are you referring to the M3 Wagon?
Manhart Racing, built a V10 version, check it out here
Next guess would be a competition version of the M like the e46 of yesteryear but not a CSL, at least in America. My guess is it would be slightly lighter with beefier brakes, tuned suspension and maybe some minor cosmetic details. GOD, this is killing me. I have gotten no work done since I came across this thread. Thanks Savage.
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      11-03-2009, 06:44 PM   #480
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uh it was already announced?
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      11-03-2009, 07:12 PM   #481
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this car isn't for us, it's for BMW motorsport. It's called homologation.
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      11-03-2009, 07:27 PM   #482
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QUESTION: With only 25 units/year, would this car even qualify as a "production vehicle" for the purposes of competition sanctioning? I confess that I am not up to date, but in previous times, there were homologation rules that required at least a 100 or more cars to be produced to qualify as a production vehicle.
Regarding homologation, I asked the question above several pages ago, and no one answered. It used to require many more units to meet various sanctioning body homologation rules.
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      11-03-2009, 07:35 PM   #483
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this car isn't for us, it's for BMW motorsport. It's called homologation.


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      11-03-2009, 08:02 PM   #484
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PG, that's exactly what I remember, but people around here seem pretty sure about their 25/year production prediction, and if true, that seems like a cheap trick to pass off something as a production car.

However, LMB is now being his usual coy self regarding the Koni GS class, which is intended for primarily stock cars, but I have no clue what their homologation rules are. I guess it was embarrassing for BMW to lose to Ford (Mustang) in the season just ended.
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