BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-03-2009, 01:48 PM   #441
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
 
southlight's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

Posts: 6,748
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
What? the chassis isn't capable? It just ran 7:40 on the ring with new front seats, brakes, suspension and +30hp... don't tell me it isn't capable.
Yeah, but at a price you're not willing to pay, literally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Why would you speculate on the price of an m3 based on a z4 instead of the price an m3 is currently offered at? That doesn't make any sense. Base m3 + $25-30 grand. The car would be a monster and would sell.
BMW used to sell cars in the US at a competitive price to generate sales volume. As you can see with the Z4, they're about to change this. They wouldn't lessen their profit margin even more and offer this car for $75k.


Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
southlight is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 01:53 PM   #442
330CIZHP
Major
 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta

Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

Then Porsche is stupid to continuously sell GT3 and GT3 RS in North America since it is a tiny N/A engine producing a lot of power (115 HP/Liter). Samething goes for Ferrari for the Scuderia and the list goes on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
I don't care what the exact reason for the header design is, but the point is US EMISSION LAWS ARE STRICTER THAN THE EU LAWS. End of discussion.
.
__________________
""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."

- Lamborghini on turbocharging
330CIZHP is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 01:55 PM   #443
foosh
Major
 
foosh's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 M3 E93
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Annapolis, MD

Posts: 1,314
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
It's one thing to buy tires from an aftermarket source and it is a completely different thing having them on a production vehicle from the factory. Semi slicks on a production vehicle in he US? I smell lawsuits coming.

Not it's not just the cams and airbox, the exhaust is different with less restrictive cats and it's MUCH louder. So no, you are the misinformed one, the CSL produces way more CO2 or whatever they're called gases than a regular M3.

I don't care what the exact reason for the header design is, but the point is US EMISSION LAWS ARE STRICTER THAN THE EU LAWS. End of discussion.

About BMW individual. I admit I don't know the exact details, but as far as I know BMW Individual requires you to pay a "deposit" before the car is delivered, and this is somehow against the US laws. I'm sure if you search this topic has been covered many times.
Yep, my Lotus Elise Sport Package was sold in the US with OEM Yokohama AO48 R Compounds, perfectly street legal in all 50 states. They are certainly as aggressive as the Sport Cups.

It didn't meet U.S. bumper specs either because Lotus was able to obtain a waiver. As for your other reasons, they are all BS, and there are/were engineering work-arounds for all of them that don't involve a loss of performance. The answer is BMW didn't feel like spending the money to sell the car in the US. If there is a desire to sell in the US, it can easily be done. Blaming the law is simply stupid.

Try again. . .
__________________
foosh is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 01:58 PM   #444
adc
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2009 E90 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

Posts: 4,133
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
One of the biggest reasons was the emissions and tires.
Emissions is a valid concern. But they should have engineered it to be US emissions compliant from the start.

The other has to do with crash testing, not tires. I mean, they could have supplied the regular tires.

Quote:
Trust me BMW really wanted to import it here.
Not really. BMW tried a limited edition M3 before - the E36 M3 LTW - which came with some "off road only" parts in the trunk (thus neatly side-stepping any additional crash/federalization requirements). The LTW was significantly more expensive than the regular M3, while at the same time having no options. They couldn't sell them, the last examples lingered in the showrooms for 2 years (!) after production ended.

So having been bitten by the US market before, they correctly concluded that they can sell a ton of M3's here, but only if they all have A/C, nice radios, sunroofs and electric heated seats.

Thus, no E46 CSL at $80k.

Quote:
While you at it also search why BMW Individual is not officially supported here, again, stupid laws, not BMW decision/fault.
BMW Individual was not supported here because of BMW's timidity, not because of any US laws. They were afraid that people would ask for the deposits back and they'd have "tough to sell" cars on the showroom floor. That is some gross BS, and quite a money making opportunity missed for them.

Oh, and now it appears to be officially supported.

Quote:
Even the regular E46 M3 is 10HP short of it's European models because of the stupid emission laws.
Not all true. It may have lost a few HP due to emissions, but the biggest difference comes from the HP -> BHP conversion.

Quote:
If BMW were to import the E46 CSL here they would have completely redesign it to make it street legal in the US and what's the point in that?
If BMW had designed the E46 CSL from the start to be both US and Euro compliant, they could have imported it. If anything, it is most definitely BMW's fault, for not taking all this into consideration from the beginning.

But then of course, that's not the real reason. They simply didn't think it would sell here. And they are right.
adc is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:09 PM   #445
Trier Germany
Banned
 
Drives: 2009 E-90 M3 space gray
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deutschland KreisTrier auf Autobahn 64 & Tucson AZ

Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (1)

CSL M3

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Who said it has to cost the same money? The fact that its based on a 3 series should be an advantage... not a negative because of the ability to take a cheaper chassis (then say a 911 chassis) and then apply the ltw treatment to it.


Im not trying to justify $120,000 3 series but there is no reason BMW couldn't build a $75k-85k CSL m3, and it wouldn't sell here.

BTW I guess its obvious that racket bmw was pushing 2 years ago about, "A csl (or gt4 as it turns out) version wouldn't be a significant improvement on the normal e9x m3"... basically they added 30hp, bolted on coils & big brakes and replaced the front seats/removed the rears and the chassis is 15+ sec faster around the ring.
$75-$85K is too cheap for a CSL version normal M3 are running in the $70K region already
Trier Germany is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:28 PM   #446
graider
Colonel
 
graider's Avatar
 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

Posts: 2,408
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gemini330zhp View Post
I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!
+2
graider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #447
Serious
1M advocate
 
Serious's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 RS4. 2012 S1000RR
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 751
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trier Germany View Post
$75-$85K is too cheap for a CSL version normal M3 are running in the $70K region already
because people choose to put 15k worth of options.

At 80k base price the CSL would be 43% higher then the base price of a normal m3. That's alot.
__________________
Serious is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:35 PM   #448
330CIZHP
Major
 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta

Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

BMW must be making a conservative claim. The GT3 997.1 had a conservative 7:42 lap time by Walter Rohrl while some testers were able to get it down to 7:39.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Well the car has adjustable suspension so it was probably specifically tuned for days testing on the ring, and as we all know by now, there is no global standard for testing so the 7:40 is a moot point. One thing for sure is, it isnt AS capable to the same degree as a F430 or GT3 are.
__________________
""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."

- Lamborghini on turbocharging
330CIZHP is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:36 PM   #449
Serious
1M advocate
 
Serious's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 RS4. 2012 S1000RR
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle

Posts: 751
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Well the car has adjustable suspension so it was probably specifically tuned for days testing on the ring, and as we all know by now, there is no global standard for testing so the 7:40 is a moot point. One thing for sure is, it isnt AS capable to the same degree as a F430 or GT3 are.
I never said the chassis was as capable as a 911 or f430 chassis... obviously its not its 500lbs heavier.

Thats not the point though... The point is the chassis obviously has room for a significant performance improvement worthy enough to justify a CSL model. Which contridicts BMW's previous rationale of "oh the csl won't be faster then a normal m3... so we aren't going to build one."

But we all knew that was crap when they said it 2 years ago.
__________________
Serious is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:41 PM   #450
Gearhead999s
Major General
 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: F25 2.8d(wifes)F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 6,769
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
You're completely misinformed.

The tires stopped it from coming to the US?... you know we can buy pilot sport cups on tirerack right? You know they are road legal right????

As for the emissions... LOL... its exactly the same engine with a different cams and airbox... it literally makes absolutely no difference from an emissions standpoint. A csl and normal m3 produce exactly the same emissions in exactly the same amounts.

The placement of headers in the e46 m3 was implements solely to reduce cold start emissions by heating the cats up faster... once the car has been driven for more then 3 minutes this argument goes out the window... and its ~5hp btw the other 5 is lost due to DIN vs. SAE correction factors.




ALSO PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IN THE LAW IT STATES BMW CAN'T PAINT MY CAR A SPECIFIC CUSTOM COLOR!!!!!!!
(this is really ROFL... I have no idea how you can believe this is in anyway rationale)

I swear some of the garbage posted on these forums is unbelievable.
GT3rs's come with the sport cups as standard in North america as standard,so that makes no sense!
Gearhead999s is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 02:43 PM   #451
graider
Colonel
 
graider's Avatar
 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

Posts: 2,408
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Who said it has to cost the same money? The fact that its based on a 3 series should be an advantage... not a negative because of the ability to take a cheaper chassis (then say a 911 chassis) and then apply the ltw treatment to it.


Im not trying to justify $120,000 3 series but there is no reason BMW couldn't build a $75k-85k CSL m3, and it wouldn't sell here.

BTW I guess its obvious that racket bmw was pushing 2 years ago about, "A csl (or gt4 as it turns out) version wouldn't be a significant improvement on the normal e9x m3"... basically they added 30hp, bolted on coils & big brakes and replaced the front seats/removed the rears and the chassis is 15+ sec faster around the ring.
in fact i think they could do it cheap. based e92 m3 with carbon roof, strip that interior-no rear seats, no nav, no radio, recaro pp, coilover, volk 18" forged, stoptech bbk. minus these to the cost of all stock interior bit such as Nav, radio, leather, 19 oem forged rim, etc...etc.that they don't have to put in. they can do all this for less than 10k. no need for power increase, i believe it can still lap the ring in 7:40 if the weight saving is substantial enough.
graider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:11 PM   #452
Trier Germany
Banned
 
Drives: 2009 E-90 M3 space gray
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deutschland KreisTrier auf Autobahn 64 & Tucson AZ

Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (1)

GT3 RS with PDK and real paddles !!! im in love my next track car better start saving now!
Trier Germany is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:13 PM   #453
330CIZHP
Major
 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta

Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

Where did you get the 997.1 GT3 weight figure of 3000 on the dot??? That is completely incorrect.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...w/specs_page_2

It actually was well over 3200 lbs in a track test so the M3 GT4 will have both a better power-to-weight and torque-to-weight than the 997.1 GT3.

GT3 997.1 pwr: 3250/415 = 7.8 lbs/HP
M3 GT4 pwr: 3200 - 3300 lbs (estimate)/450 = 7.1 - 7.3 lbs/HP

The M3 GT4 will most likely be capable of running ~7:35 around Nurburgring. The E46 CSL ran a 7:50 with only 355 HP so I highly doubt the GT4 with 100 more HP will only be 10 seconds quicker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
So you think the car is capable of better than 7:40?? I find that tough to believe. 997.1 GT3 was ~7:40 +/- and has a power to weight of 7.2 (3000 lbs/415 hp). this m3 even going on the lighter side and higher hp side has a power to weight of 7.3 (3300 lbs and 450 hp). the new GT3 did 7:33 and the claim is 7:30 is a theoretical best with a traditional manual. I assume the 997.2 GT3 RS will be hitting the mid 7:20s. And once the GT3 gets PDK transmission, i would bet the reg GT3 will be hitting 7:20s and the GT3RS may even be down to around 7:20.
I think the m3 is def a 7:40s range but no better based on this hp/wght ratio.




I agree there is definate room for chasis improvement. Porsche and Ferrari continue to tweak and hone and refine their chasis' with each generation. Porsche took the GT3 and gained 10 secs with some teaks and barely any more hp. The key was keeping weigh down, even making it lighter in the process.
This m3 is still too heavy at even 3300/3400 lbs. I dont think for a price around the same as a GT3 or used Ferrari it would get many serious buyers. Porsche and Ferrari do and will always have this market because they are the top dogs, and have been doing it for countless years.
The GT3 is straight homologation from the GT3 RSR, which you prob know WON the ALMS GT2 class AGAIN this year leaving Ferrari, Corvette, and BMW in its dust.
__________________
""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."

- Lamborghini on turbocharging
330CIZHP is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:15 PM   #454
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,300
iTrader: (0)

By the way, did you know that the 911 GT3 RS has navi? But the M3 CSL E46 had even no radio and no clim. Why does not any one complain about the price of the 911 GT3 RS? It costs (in France) 148.000 €, 30.000 € more than the 911 GT3 which costs 118.000 €. So, the 911 GT3 RS cost exactly as much as a 911 Turbo. But the 911 Turbo has all comfort features and better performance. The M3 (E92) costs 68.000 €, so lets say we ad 30.000 € as the 911 GT3 RS, it will cost 98.000 €. So you get 911 GT3 feeling for a cheaper price than a 911 GT3. A GT-R cost 88.000 €, cheaper than anything els, and yet faster than all.


Edit: Until I posted the discution went further.
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:19 PM   #455
330CIZHP
Major
 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta

Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

Incorrect. GT3 RS is the most track focused 911 out there right now. It outhandles and outperforms the 911 turbo around a race track in the right hands and it also is way more exciting, soulful and thrilling to drive (the sound of both cars are simply in different leagues). Hence, the price tag equal to 911 turbo.

Heck, even the one-and-only Walter Rohrl himself finally admitted that he would never pick 911 turbo over the 911 GT3 to take to the race track.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
It costs (in France) 148.000 €, 30.000 € more than the 911 GT3 which costs 118.000 €. So, the 911 GT3 RS cost exactly as much as a 911 Turbo. But the 911 Turbo has all comfort features and better performance..
__________________
""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."

- Lamborghini on turbocharging
330CIZHP is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:21 PM   #456
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,300
iTrader: (0)

Remember the M3 is a 3 series and not a real sportcar with two seats as the 911 or F430/458I are.
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:29 PM   #457
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,300
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Incorrect. GT3 RS is the most track focused 911 out there right now. It outhandles and outperforms the 911 turbo around a race track in the right hands and it also is way more exciting, soulful and thrilling to drive (the sound of both cars are simply in different leagues). Hence, the price tag equal to 911 turbo.

Heck, even the one-and-only Walter Rohrl himself finally admitted that he would never pick 911 turbo over the 911 GT3 to take to the race track.
I know the 911 GT3/RS is the best 911, and the best Porsche at all.
I never said that the 911 Turbo was a better track car, but it has 4WD and Turbo, so it is nearly faster and maybe easier to drvie. The GT-R was always compared to the 911 Turbo or GT2 and not to the GT3.
911 Turbo: 0-100 km/h: 3.7 sec
911 GT3: 0-100 km/h: 4.1 sec
911 GT3 RS: 0-100 km/h: 4.0 sec
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:31 PM   #458
Trier Germany
Banned
 
Drives: 2009 E-90 M3 space gray
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deutschland KreisTrier auf Autobahn 64 & Tucson AZ

Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (1)

BMW will be lucky if they can shave 220lbs off the current model.
Trier Germany is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:36 PM   #459
330CIZHP
Major
 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta

Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

Yeah, turbo is faster in a straight line while GT3/RS is faster around a race track. Although, the straight line gap is closer with the 997.2 GT3 RS and turbo since the GT3 RS is 700 lbs lighter (2960 lbs) and makes only 50 HP less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
I know the 911 GT3/RS is the best 911, and the best Porsche at all.
I never said that the 911 Turbo was a better track car, but it has 4WD and Turbo, so it is nearly faster and maybe easier to drvie. The GT-R was always compared to the 911 Turbo or GT2 and not to the GT3.
911 Turbo: 0-100 km/h: 3.7 sec
911 GT3: 0-100 km/h: 4.1 sec
911 GT3 RS: 0-100 km/h: 4.0 sec
__________________
""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."

- Lamborghini on turbocharging
330CIZHP is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:40 PM   #460
FStop7
I like cars
 
FStop7's Avatar
 
Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

Posts: 5,059
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
You're completely misinformed.

The tires stopped it from coming to the US?... you know we can buy pilot sport cups on tirerack right? You know they are road legal right????
Not to mention PSCs come from the factory on the US market GT3 and GT3 RS. They are 100% DOT legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
really thats funny becase the clk black has exactly the same seats as the CSL, and yet somehow it is able to pass our safety laws.
Disagree with you here. The US market CLK63 Black does not have the same racing shells as the Euro market version does. The US market car has seats similar to those found in the C63. I've been in a couple of these cars, myself. Also, the OEM seat in the Euro CLK63 Black is not the same as the E46 M3 CSL - The Black comes with a one-off seat created by Sparco, I believe they called it the DTM. The M3 CSL came with one-off seats made by Recaro.
__________________
FStop7 is offline   Vatican City State
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:41 PM   #461
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Prague

Posts: 3,300
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousm3 View Post
Mercedes has the balls to sell the clk63 black here.
Porsche has the balls to sell the gt3/gt3rs here.
Ferrari has the balls to sell the Scuderia/CS here.
Aston has the balls to sell the DBS here.

The management at BMW needs to get their heads out of their asses and quit excluding their biggest market; The US buys more sports car then anyone else in the world.
We can't say BMW hasn't the balls. They did have the balls to build 2 4WD, FI SUV/SAV's, the X5 and X6 M.
Levi is offline   Czech_Republic
0
Reply With Quote
      11-03-2009, 03:48 PM   #462
duk
///M
 
Drives: 2011 AW/FR 6MT E92
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Jose, CA

Posts: 2,953
iTrader: (0)

bmw is jack of all trades right now, trying to appeal to a wider audience, can't blame them but losing focus
__________________
2011 AW/FR 6MT E92 | Powered by Premier | Alekshop | ESS |
Rok n Peace Clothing: www.roknpeace.com

duk is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST