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      03-14-2014, 12:41 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
Classic power on oversteer. Next time try to anticipate that, if you do, you will be able to react almost immediately. Small, but quick coutersteer whould have prevented that spin. Corrective steering should be rapid enough to catch the back of the car before it starts to slide.
He did countersteer. At 0:25. Wasn't all that slow.

Anyhow, classic tank slapper.


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Originally Posted by dazedone View Post
I decided to forgo euro MDM and go DSC off yesterday at Willow and this is what happened. I'm too much of a noob and don't have enough practice to instinctively correct my screw-ups. I really need to go to a race school and practice this stuff on other people's cars. I got rock chips all over the side of my car . Euro MDM will remain on until I can properly get my technique down

You did 1 of 2 things correct: you steered into the slide, @ 0:25 (your front tires turned to left).

But, you lifted off the throttle. It's hard, but you gotta either stay on the throttle as you steer into the slide, or ease off of the throttle nice and smoothly, instead of abruptly lifting off.

If you lift off the throttle, in terms of weight transfer, it has the same effect as hitting the brakes in that, the weight transfer to the front. Which lightens the rear. (Conversely, if you get on the gas, weight transfers to the rear and the rear of the car squats & the front end gets light.) Now the rear tires (that are only lightly touching the ground now) are prone to swing. Why swing? Because you countersteered (which you're supposed to).

All cars are designed to go straight sans artificial countering force. When the car gets sideways while the steering wheel is turned, if you let go the steering wheel, it spins by itself towards the center. Or, if you hold onto the turned steering wheel, the backend will swing & tries to line up with the direction of the front tires (i.e. the front tires tries to get back to straight position, or the backend swings to line up with the direction of the front tires).

So, in your video, when your car started to oversteer (backend steps out to the left), and you countersteered (to left), but lifted off the throttle, because you for that moment were still holding onto the steering wheel, the now-lightened backend swung out to the right so as to line up with where the front tires were pointing.

At that moment, the video shows that you countersteered to the right, which is correct. But, by then, you dont' have any throttle-vector, so physics/momentum has taken over and that second countersteer is inadequate to counter the tank-slapper your car is going thru.

Anyhow, the initial oversteer could've possibly been prevented had you unwound the steering wheel and tracked out to the left more as you were getting on the gas. You can see from the forward-center cam that there were lots of room to your left.
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      03-14-2014, 08:57 AM   #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
He did countersteer. At 0:25. Wasn't all that slow.

Anyhow, classic tank slapper.




You did 1 of 2 things correct: you steered into the slide, @ 0:25 (your front tires turned to left).

But, you lifted off the throttle. It's hard, but you gotta either stay on the throttle as you steer into the slide, or ease off of the throttle nice and smoothly, instead of abruptly lifting off.

If you lift off the throttle, in terms of weight transfer, it has the same effect as hitting the brakes in that, the weight transfer to the front. Which lightens the rear. (Conversely, if you get on the gas, weight transfers to the rear and the rear of the car squats & the front end gets light.) Now the rear tires (that are only lightly touching the ground now) are prone to swing. Why swing? Because you countersteered (which you're supposed to).

All cars are designed to go straight sans artificial countering force. When the car gets sideways while the steering wheel is turned, if you let go the steering wheel, it spins by itself towards the center. Or, if you hold onto the turned steering wheel, the backend will swing & tries to line up with the direction of the front tires (i.e. the front tires tries to get back to straight position, or the backend swings to line up with the direction of the front tires).

So, in your video, when your car started to oversteer (backend steps out to the left), and you countersteered (to left), but lifted off the throttle, because you for that moment were still holding onto the steering wheel, the now-lightened backend swung out to the right so as to line up with where the front tires were pointing.

At that moment, the video shows that you countersteered to the right, which is correct. But, by then, you dont' have any throttle-vector, so physics/momentum has taken over and that second countersteer is inadequate to counter the tank-slapper your car is going thru.

Anyhow, the initial oversteer could've possibly been prevented had you unwound the steering wheel and tracked out to the left more as you were getting on the gas. You can see from the forward-center cam that there were lots of room to your left.
Spot on.

I will also add that when one abruptly lifts off the throttle, in addition to the forward weight shift, you get unwanted engine/transmission braking to the rear axle, almost like pulling on the handbrake. This in effect gives you less tractive force for turning because you are using up part of the friction circle on the rear tires by either decelerating (drop-throttle oversteer) or accelerating (power-on oversteer). The effect is magnified by lifting while high in the rpm band, where we live quite frequently.

Sorry about the rock chips OP, but you guys are lucky not to have all those big hairy concrete walls in your runoff areas!
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      03-14-2014, 09:47 AM   #1015
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Sleeper519, really nice times. Can't wait to see the video!
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      03-14-2014, 10:25 AM   #1016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazedone View Post
I decided to forgo euro MDM and go DSC off yesterday at Willow and this is what happened. I'm too much of a noob and don't have enough practice to instinctively correct my screw-ups. I really need to go to a race school and practice this stuff on other people's cars. I got rock chips all over the side of my car . Euro MDM will remain on until I can properly get my technique down
Yeah, that wasn't a fun moment. It takes time to be ready for these kinds of moments----or even have the proper driving skills so that you don't get into them in the first place. (And I'm sure you already know this, but MDM would have prevented this completely. It shines in moments like these. Unfortunately, we don't realize it because it subtly corrects it and you move on without knowing what it did---grabs the brake on a specific wheel and holds back power a bit----which is course why people say MDM develops bad habits.)

Honestly, Big Willow is a tough place to learn DSC-off because, as you've seen, going off is brutal there. There's pretty much no spot that's good to go off---it's just rocky (big rocks) and nasty everywhere. A place like Buttonwillow is far more forgiving to your car in most places if you go off. The other problem is that Big Willow is mostly high speed. So, when these things happen the drama is heightened. At Buttonwillow, you can go for it in Off-Ramp and try to oversteer and catch it, and you're going uphill, off-camber at only 35mph. It's not that big of a deal to spin it around at that speed, or going off at Sweeper isn't that dramatic----just dusty, versus at 80+mph coming out of Turn 1, Turn 2, or Turn 9 at Willow, or oversteering Turn 3 and hitting the wall, or messing up Turn 8 and really flying…..ooh I saw an E36 go flying off Turn 8…..At Big Willlow, it's just best to stay on the pavement…… (Chuckwalla is also a good place to learn because the track is really wide--40' everywhere--and it's mostly just flat sandy desert if you go off.)

If you want to learn DSC-off, try backing off the pace. You were pretty much full speed in Turn 2. I never go full pace when I drive DSC-off. I'm just not comfortable enough yet. Also, go to a few auto-cross events. Auto-cross can be good for learning as well. The concepts are the same, but at much lower speeds on a really tight course. Also, Willow Springs has a skid pad called the Balcony Skid Pad. You can rent that on your own for pretty cheap and go up there and slide around. I've done it several times. It's quite worth it. You can setup cones and challenges. I've learned a lot up there.

The best thing you can do from that experience is try to learn from it: Listen to the exhaust as you exit Turn 2 and look at the video in the top right corner. Look at the nose of your car start to point to the right as you hear the engine increase rpms. You accelerated without unwinding the steering wheel while coming out of the turn and now the additional power while holding the steering wheel closed as the track is straightening out is resulting in an oversteer situation. (Also, right at that moment--exiting Turn 2, you were cresting a hill which can also make the whole car a bit lighter, which requires even more caution.) At this point, you needed to do a small quick countersteer, and stay on the gas to keep the rear weighted and gripping so it stays behind you. Instead, you did a massive counter steer, let off the gas, the rear unweighted, lost grip, the front tires were turned massively left, the front of the car went left and the unweighted rear came around the right…….But you could have avoided the whole thing if you had let the steering wheel relax back to neutral sooner as you were exiting Turn 2 and let the car track out. You would have completely avoided the oversteer situation altogether.

These things just take time. As you know from my previous postings, I'm still in my infancy of DSC-off as well. I'm trying to learn as much as I can to avoid too many of these incidents. But I've had them too----mostly at Buttonwillow. They're not fun moments; that's for sure.
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      03-14-2014, 10:44 AM   #1017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Yeah, that wasn't a fun moment. It takes time to be ready for these kinds of moments----or even have the proper driving skills so that you don't get into them in the first place. (And I'm sure you already know this, but MDM would have prevented this completely. It shines in moments like these. Unfortunately, we don't realize it because it subtly corrects it and you move on without knowing what it did---grabs the brake on a specific wheel and holds back power a bit----which is course why people say MDM develops bad habits.)

Honestly, Big Willow is a tough place to learn DSC-off because, as you've seen, going off is brutal there. There's pretty much no spot that's good to go off---it's just rocky (big rocks) and nasty everywhere. A place like Buttonwillow is far more forgiving to your car in most places if you go off. The other problem is that Big Willow is mostly high speed. So, when these things happen the drama is heightened. At Buttonwillow, you can go for it in Off-Ramp and try to oversteer and catch it, and you're going uphill, off-camber at only 35mph. It's not that big of a deal to spin it around at that speed, or going off at Sweeper isn't that dramatic----just dusty, versus at 80+mph coming out of Turn 1, Turn 2, or Turn 9 at Willow, or oversteering Turn 3 and hitting the wall, or messing up Turn 8 and really flying…..ooh I saw an E36 go flying off Turn 8…..At Big Willlow, it's just best to stay on the pavement…… (Chuckwalla is also a good place to learn because the track is really wide--40' everywhere--and it's mostly just flat sandy desert if you go off.)

If you want to learn DSC-off, try backing off the pace. You were pretty much full speed in Turn 2. I never go full pace when I drive DSC-off. I'm just not comfortable enough yet. Also, go to a few auto-cross events. Auto-cross can be good for learning as well. The concepts are the same, but at much lower speeds on a really tight course. Also, Willow Springs has a skid pad called the Balcony Skid Pad. You can rent that on your own for pretty cheap and go up there and slide around. I've done it several times. It's quite worth it. You can setup cones and challenges. I've learned a lot up there.

The best thing you can do from that experience is try to learn from it: Listen to the exhaust as you exit Turn 2 and look at the video in the top right corner. Look at the nose of your car start to point to the right as you hear the engine increase rpms. You accelerated without unwinding the steering wheel while coming out of the turn and now the additional power while holding the steering wheel closed as the track is straightening out is resulting in an oversteer situation. (Also, right at that moment--exiting Turn 2, you were cresting a hill which can also make the whole car a bit lighter, which requires even more caution.) At this point, you needed to do a small quick countersteer, and stay on the gas to keep the rear weighted and gripping so it stays behind you. Instead, you did a massive counter steer, let off the gas, the rear unweighted, lost grip, the front tires were turned massively left, the front of the car went left and the unweighted rear came around the right…….But you could have avoided the whole thing if you had let the steering wheel relax back to neutral sooner as you were exiting Turn 2 and let the car track out. You would have completely avoided the oversteer situation altogether.

These things just take time. As you know from my previous postings, I'm still in my infancy of DSC-off as well. I'm trying to learn as much as I can to avoid too many of these incidents. But I've had them too----mostly at Buttonwillow. They're not fun moments; that's for sure.
+1 If you want to try DSC/nannies off then Buttonwillow is probably the best place to do it followed by Chuckwalla. I took the nannies off going only 7/10th and did a 360 coming out of bus stop (but at least I stayed on the track).
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      03-14-2014, 02:47 PM   #1018
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My car has never gone past that dot, ever. Even tracking the car in 105 degree weather at Thunderhill with a supercharger. I think 6MT's just don't get as hot at DCT.
I agree. My last 6MT with MUCH more power, would never go past the third dot. Right under it.

My DCT does get to the third dot, sometimes over.
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      03-14-2014, 02:48 PM   #1019
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I switched from RS3 to NT01 and got the same exact time.. Pissed.

I need some TDs.

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      03-14-2014, 03:29 PM   #1020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbone View Post
Yeah, that wasn't a fun moment. It takes time to be ready for these kinds of moments----or even have the proper driving skills so that you don't get into them in the first place. (And I'm sure you already know this, but MDM would have prevented this completely. It shines in moments like these. Unfortunately, we don't realize it because it subtly corrects it and you move on without knowing what it did---grabs the brake on a specific wheel and holds back power a bit----which is course why people say MDM develops bad habits.)

Honestly, Big Willow is a tough place to learn DSC-off because, as you've seen, going off is brutal there. There's pretty much no spot that's good to go off---it's just rocky (big rocks) and nasty everywhere. A place like Buttonwillow is far more forgiving to your car in most places if you go off. The other problem is that Big Willow is mostly high speed. So, when these things happen the drama is heightened. At Buttonwillow, you can go for it in Off-Ramp and try to oversteer and catch it, and you're going uphill, off-camber at only 35mph. It's not that big of a deal to spin it around at that speed, or going off at Sweeper isn't that dramatic----just dusty, versus at 80+mph coming out of Turn 1, Turn 2, or Turn 9 at Willow, or oversteering Turn 3 and hitting the wall, or messing up Turn 8 and really flying…..ooh I saw an E36 go flying off Turn 8…..At Big Willlow, it's just best to stay on the pavement…… (Chuckwalla is also a good place to learn because the track is really wide--40' everywhere--and it's mostly just flat sandy desert if you go off.)

If you want to learn DSC-off, try backing off the pace. You were pretty much full speed in Turn 2. I never go full pace when I drive DSC-off. I'm just not comfortable enough yet. Also, go to a few auto-cross events. Auto-cross can be good for learning as well. The concepts are the same, but at much lower speeds on a really tight course. Also, Willow Springs has a skid pad called the Balcony Skid Pad. You can rent that on your own for pretty cheap and go up there and slide around. I've done it several times. It's quite worth it. You can setup cones and challenges. I've learned a lot up there.

The best thing you can do from that experience is try to learn from it: Listen to the exhaust as you exit Turn 2 and look at the video in the top right corner. Look at the nose of your car start to point to the right as you hear the engine increase rpms. You accelerated without unwinding the steering wheel while coming out of the turn and now the additional power while holding the steering wheel closed as the track is straightening out is resulting in an oversteer situation. (Also, right at that moment--exiting Turn 2, you were cresting a hill which can also make the whole car a bit lighter, which requires even more caution.) At this point, you needed to do a small quick countersteer, and stay on the gas to keep the rear weighted and gripping so it stays behind you. Instead, you did a massive counter steer, let off the gas, the rear unweighted, lost grip, the front tires were turned massively left, the front of the car went left and the unweighted rear came around the right…….But you could have avoided the whole thing if you had let the steering wheel relax back to neutral sooner as you were exiting Turn 2 and let the car track out. You would have completely avoided the oversteer situation altogether.

These things just take time. As you know from my previous postings, I'm still in my infancy of DSC-off as well. I'm trying to learn as much as I can to avoid too many of these incidents. But I've had them too----mostly at Buttonwillow. They're not fun moments; that's for sure.
Totally. ACS (just because of the sheer speed there) also.

CVR is the best, closely followed by BRP, in terms of having lots of flat run-off areas and very little rocks.

I had gotten to 1:36 at Big Willow on MDM/R-S3 in early 2012, and when I turned DSC off, I was running 1:45 over next 2 visits, lulz.
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      03-14-2014, 04:55 PM   #1021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazedone View Post
I decided to forgo euro MDM and go DSC off yesterday at Willow and this is what happened. I'm too much of a noob and don't have enough practice to instinctively correct my screw-ups. I really need to go to a race school and practice this stuff on other people's cars. I got rock chips all over the side of my car . Euro MDM will remain on until I can properly get my technique down
What I see here is a classic pinching of the steering wheel: throttle applied without unwinding the steering wheel. This is a typical and probably the most common bad habit acquired with the use of stability/traction control systems.

If you want to get your technique right, keep MDM/DSC off, slow down the pace and keep working at it. IMO, continuing to drive with MDM will not allow you to progress.

EDIT: And what happens at 1:22 is exactly the reason why our club does not allow suction mounted cameras

Last edited by CanAutM3; 03-17-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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      03-14-2014, 06:20 PM   #1022
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
What I see here is pinching of the steering wheel
I'm surprised that with all the feedback that nobody commented on the driving line. To me, it looked like he way early apexed the exit to 2, got thrown too far left and then that's when he got into trouble by trying to jerk it back to the right while hard on throttle.
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      03-14-2014, 07:37 PM   #1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazedone View Post
I decided to forgo euro MDM and go DSC off yesterday at Willow and this is what happened. I'm too much of a noob and don't have enough practice to instinctively correct my screw-ups. I really need to go to a race school and practice this stuff on other people's cars. I got rock chips all over the side of my car . Euro MDM will remain on until I can properly get my technique down

Also 150mph through Turn 2 is waaay too fast!! Slow down a bit there
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      03-14-2014, 07:40 PM   #1024
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What I see here is pinching of the steering wheel: throttle applied without unwinding the steering wheel. This is a typical and most common bad habit acquired with the use of stability/traction control systems.
...yeah very true. If he would have tracked out and unwound the wheel he most likely would have been fine. That turn has a tough exit and fairly high speed and you need to hit it just right if taking it at speed. Probably one of the tougher exits of any of the turns in SoCal.
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      03-14-2014, 08:43 PM   #1025
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I'm surprised that with all the feedback that nobody commented on the driving line. To me, it looked like he way early apexed the exit to 2, got thrown too far left and then that's when he got into trouble by trying to jerk it back to the right while hard on throttle.
To me, in a case like this, the driving line is irrelevant. A good driver is much more than someone that can drive "the line" to perfection. IMO, a good driver is one that can be put in any situation and make the best of it . The "line" is whatever it needs to be .
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      03-14-2014, 10:55 PM   #1026
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okusa View Post
I'm surprised that with all the feedback that nobody commented on the driving line. To me, it looked like he way early apexed the exit to 2, got thrown too far left and then that's when he got into trouble by trying to jerk it back to the right while hard on throttle.
To me, in a case like this, the driving line is irrelevant. A good driver is much more than someone that can drive "the line" to perfection. IMO, a good driver is one that can be put in any situation and make the best of it . The "line" is whatever it needs to be .
That's all fine and good for a good driver. However, the OP is new to TC off and would be well advised to learn the line before venturing in that direction.
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      03-14-2014, 11:29 PM   #1027
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      03-15-2014, 09:44 AM   #1028
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That's all fine and good for a good driver. However, the OP is new to TC off and would be well advised to learn the line before venturing in that direction.
My point is that it is not the bad line that got the driver to spin. It is bad driving technique most likely acquired through previously relying too much on MDM.

One sometimes needs to use a different/unexpected line to complete a pass, avoid an object or a spinning car. One needs to have the proper abilities to do this to be a safe driver on a track.

Once my students have a reasonable understanding of the proper theoretical line, I start working off line with them. I feel it is important to be comfortable anywhere on a track. Be it on the dusty inside line or the marble filled outside line .

That being said, I agree with you that there was no apparent reason for this driver not being on a more optimal line and that he could benefit from instruction in that respect. But that should not prevent him from going DSC off.

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      03-16-2014, 11:31 PM   #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazedone View Post
I decided to forgo euro MDM and go DSC off yesterday at Willow and this is what happened. I'm too much of a noob and don't have enough practice to instinctively correct my screw-ups. I really need to go to a race school and practice this stuff on other people's cars. I got rock chips all over the side of my car . Euro MDM will remain on until I can properly get my technique down

Go to a racing school it will help tremendously. I noticed a couple of sets up skids marks right around where you went off. Looks like that is a tricky corner with what appears to be a slight elevation change.
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      03-17-2014, 08:59 AM   #1030
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Road Atlanta nasa tt this weekend. I burnt out my a6s in the morning with no "fast laps," what a waste. I love the feel and I know i can get a 1:29 on them during a cold morning. I was gridded last, session 1-2 , behind people 20-30 seconds slower than me. Destroyed my new a6s trying to pass everyone to get a semi clean lap. Didn't happen, just over heated the tires. Smarty cam is really cool. First time using it.
1:31.74 on the old r6 when I finally was gridded correctly and had a clean lap. Really wish I had a clean lap with a's

Hoosier r6 275/35/18
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https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByfP...p=docslist_api
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      03-17-2014, 07:40 PM   #1031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight flexin View Post
Road Atlanta nasa tt this weekend. I burnt out my a6s in the morning with no "fast laps," what a waste. I love the feel and I know i can get a 1:29 on them during a cold morning. I was gridded last, session 1-2 , behind people 20-30 seconds slower than me. Destroyed my new a6s trying to pass everyone to get a semi clean lap. Didn't happen, just over heated the tires. Smarty cam is really cool. First time using it.
1:31.74 on the old r6 when I finally was gridded correctly and had a clean lap. Really wish I had a clean lap with a's

Hoosier r6 275/35/18
Kw clubsport 3way
Apr gtc-250
Splitter
Brembo gt bbk
Ess-600
Recaro seats
Huge balls

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByfP...p=docslist_api
Awesome lap! TT1 or TT2? Sucks that it rained all day Sunday.

Edit: Pulled the scoring sheet and see you are in TT1.

Last edited by Brent Dalton; 03-17-2014 at 07:49 PM.
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      03-21-2014, 12:08 PM   #1032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight flexin View Post
Road Atlanta nasa tt this weekend. I burnt out my a6s in the morning with no "fast laps," what a waste. I love the feel and I know i can get a 1:29 on them during a cold morning. I was gridded last, session 1-2 , behind people 20-30 seconds slower than me. Destroyed my new a6s trying to pass everyone to get a semi clean lap. Didn't happen, just over heated the tires. Smarty cam is really cool. First time using it.
1:31.74 on the old r6 when I finally was gridded correctly and had a clean lap. Really wish I had a clean lap with a's

Hoosier r6 275/35/18
Kw clubsport 3way
Apr gtc-250
Splitter
Brembo gt bbk
Ess-600
Recaro seats
Huge balls

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByfP...p=docslist_api
Where did you buy your "huge balls"?
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      03-21-2014, 04:48 PM   #1033
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Why is this not a sticky? There are great times in here, I wish it had more videos in here for me to watch.
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      03-22-2014, 10:15 AM   #1034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey@RWE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight flexin View Post
Road Atlanta nasa tt this weekend. I burnt out my a6s in the morning with no "fast laps," what a waste. I love the feel and I know i can get a 1:29 on them during a cold morning. I was gridded last, session 1-2 , behind people 20-30 seconds slower than me. Destroyed my new a6s trying to pass everyone to get a semi clean lap. Didn't happen, just over heated the tires. Smarty cam is really cool. First time using it.
1:31.74 on the old r6 when I finally was gridded correctly and had a clean lap. Really wish I had a clean lap with a's

Hoosier r6 275/35/18
Kw clubsport 3way
Apr gtc-250
Splitter
Brembo gt bbk
Ess-600
Recaro seats
Huge balls

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByfP...p=docslist_api
Where did you buy your "huge balls"?
RaceWerkz Engineering... Think they have some in stock still.
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