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      10-26-2009, 02:17 AM   #23
FStop7
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The nice thing about nitrogen in track tires is that they're not going to gain or lose pressure depending on how hot they are. Set them to your desired pressure and go.


oh and -

I am going to fill my tires with helium in order to make my car lighter in the corners.

wat
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      10-26-2009, 10:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Aluminum corrodes, steel rusts...

The extra ~20% of nitrogen, displaces the oxygen content inside the tires. That all but eliminates moisture...which leads to corrosion. Without oxygen, corrosion (or rust) can not occur.




Rubber is actually a porous material. The average consumer doesn't know that...

This is a small but important point.

Over time, the normal compressed air used to inflate the tire will permeate (leak) THROUGH the outer rubber jacket, back to atmosphere. (not kidding)

As this occurs, the 20% oxygen content in the normal compressed air will slowly degrade the rubber compound as it passes through, turning it a dark shade of brown. (again not kidding)

I worked for Boeing many years ago, and we always filled the landing gear tires with nitrogen gas, because it was simply better than compressed shop air. The tires lasted longer, and they performed in a predictable manner, regardless of the extreme temperature swings they were subjected to on the flight line.

I can tell you with absolute certainty that nitrogen does work to improve (and maximize) the performance of your tires. If you simply refuse to believe that...then I guess there is nothing more I could say to change your minds...
+1 and very well explained. Thanks!
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      10-26-2009, 10:20 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by index1489 View Post
Nissan puts N in the GTR tires from the factory.
Nissan also put launch control in from the factory, then canceled your warranty if you used it.....
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      10-26-2009, 10:31 AM   #26
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Nitrogen tire fill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Aluminum corrodes, steel rusts...

I can tell you with absolute certainty that nitrogen does work to improve (and maximize) the performance of your tires. If you simply refuse to believe that...then I guess there is nothing more I could say to change your minds...
There is no doubt all the points you list are true and positives. The gray area is whether the (significant) extra cost and hassle of using nitrogen for street car use is warranted. That's something each individual can decide. If I had it in my garage, I'd use it for sure. Anyone know how much a system would cost for home use?

http://www.southteksystems.com/tire-blast.asp
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      10-26-2009, 10:34 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
Nissan also put launch control in from the factory, then canceled your warranty if you used it.....
Warning, logic circuit malfunction, cease typing immediately!
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      10-26-2009, 11:10 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Warning, logic circuit malfunction, cease typing immediately!
you don't like my joke?
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      10-26-2009, 12:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
The nice thing about nitrogen in track tires is that they're not going to gain or lose pressure depending on how hot they are. Set them to your desired pressure and go.


oh and -

I am going to fill my tires with helium in order to make my car lighter in the corners.

wat
All gases obey the same ideal gas law. This is one of the absolutes in the Universe.

pV = nRT

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law)

If they get hotter, they will expand/increase pressure the same, whether they are a mixture of gases or a single gas. Nitrogen fills may eliminate water vapor, and issues associated with that, but to say that that nitrogen filled tires stay the same pressure, whereas compressed airs don't, is hogwash. If they stay the same pressure at the track, you might want to use a little more of the right and middle pedal

The only exception to this is rubbing snake oil into the tire wall. Fortunately, I have a supply of New Mexico Rattler XSP for sale, much better than the crap from Arizona.

Nitrogen fills are a rip-off. If I were paying $20(+) for a few cents of Nitrogen, I'd be convincing myself it made a difference too...and not releasing the precious elixir to the atmosphere.
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      10-26-2009, 12:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
All gases obey the same ideal gas law. This is one of the absolutes in the Universe.

pV = nRT

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law)

If they get hotter, they will expand/increase pressure the same, whether they are a mixture of gases or a single gas. Nitrogen fills may eliminate water vapor, and issues associated with that, but to say that that nitrogen filled tires stay the same pressure, whereas compressed airs don't, is hogwash. If they stay the same pressure at the track, you might want to use a little more of the right and middle pedal

The only exception to this is rubbing snake oil into the tire wall. Fortunately, I have a supply of New Mexico Rattler XSP for sale, much better than the crap from Arizona.

Nitrogen fills are a rip-off. If I were paying $20(+) for a few cents of Nitrogen, I'd be convincing myself it made a difference too...and not releasing the precious elixir to the atmosphere.
+100

It's the water vapor issue as I mentioned before. Which really isn't an issue, unless possibly at the track where the temperatures run very high and you can make steam, which will increase your tire pressure greatly. You're not going to make steam from the water vapor in your tires while driving on the street. As said, your pressure will change with temperature no matter what gas in inside of your tires.
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      10-26-2009, 12:57 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Rubber is actually a porous material. The average consumer doesn't know that...

This is a small but important point.

Over time, the normal compressed air used to inflate the tire will permeate (leak) THROUGH the outer rubber jacket, back to atmosphere. (not kidding)

As this occurs, the 20% oxygen content in the normal compressed air will slowly degrade the rubber compound as it passes through, turning it a dark shade of brown. (again not kidding)
Yes, but filling tires with nitrogen does nothing to change the fact that the air outside of the tire remains 20% oxygen.

Brown tires are usually a result of applying those god-awful super glossy tire shine products. Clean the tire with diluted simple green and finish with 303 protectant, your tires will look good-as-new.
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      10-27-2009, 11:37 AM   #32
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There are benefits to Nitrogen with regard to consistency of pressure when the temperature changes and slower seepage (permeation for those who like the technical term) out of the tire. The elimination of moisture content is a benefit, although some air sources are quite well dehumidified.

Benefits to treadwear and gas mileage are attributable to the more consistent pressure, not to any magical effect of the nitrogen.

$118 is outrageous, unless it is a lifetime service. If they will give you lifetime nitrogen for that, then it's probably a good deal

I would say the $5 per tire is about the limit to what I would pay for nitrogen, because most of the same benefits can be realized by decent attention to air pressure.
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      10-27-2009, 12:19 PM   #33
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For those interested in the science, the link below gets into the nitty gritty, and demonstrates that 02 permeates through the tire 4 times faster than N.

http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf

As Ben points out, N is better for the "soccer mom" type who would never think of checking tire pressure until stranded on the side of the road. If you're meticulous about checking your tire pressures, the benefits are substantially reduced.

BTW, JO8M3, the "ideal gas law" has a number of limitations, and among them is that it fails to account for the size of the molecule in question. N molecules are larger.
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      10-27-2009, 12:56 PM   #34
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Foosh, the gas still expands and contracts with temperature change, contrary to statements previously made in this post.

Even the soccer mom doesn't need as all cars now have TPMS to warn you when pressure gets too low. So even if you don't check your pressure often the car does it for you. Yes, Nitrogen can offer some things that regular air cannot, but you're a sucker if you're paying for it. A tire pressure gauge will let you know when you need to fill up or let out some free regular air.
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      10-27-2009, 01:03 PM   #35
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Yes, I know, so don't go getting all feisty. In fact, I said similar things in my last post. Earlier, I said $5.00 per tire (as did Ben from Tire Rack) would be the max anyone should consider. Just for the record, I do not use N in any of my 5 vehicles, thus I spend a lot of time checking tire pressures.

I was mostly pulling your leg in the previous post since you made a big deal about the "ideal gas law." However, since it doesn't account for molecular size differences the amount of expansion/contraction would not be the same as O2. You said it would.
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      10-27-2009, 01:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
All gases obey the same ideal gas law. This is one of the absolutes in the Universe.

pV = nRT

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law)

If they get hotter, they will expand/increase pressure the same, whether they are a mixture of gases or a single gas. Nitrogen fills may eliminate water vapor, and issues associated with that, but to say that that nitrogen filled tires stay the same pressure, whereas compressed airs don't, is hogwash. If they stay the same pressure at the track, you might want to use a little more of the right and middle pedal

The only exception to this is rubbing snake oil into the tire wall. Fortunately, I have a supply of New Mexico Rattler XSP for sale, much better than the crap from Arizona.

Nitrogen fills are a rip-off. If I were paying $20(+) for a few cents of Nitrogen, I'd be convincing myself it made a difference too...and not releasing the precious elixir to the atmosphere.
lol, PV=nRT... I miss those days. Not buying the expansion difference either.

For Foosh,
And yes, expansion is exactly the same for O2 vs N2, size doesn't matter here unless we start packing things together to make it into a solid.
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      10-27-2009, 01:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
I was mostly pulling your leg in the previous post since you made a big deal about the "ideal gas law." However, since it doesn't account for molecular size differences the amount of expansion/contraction would not be the same as O2. You said it would.
I said it would?

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      10-27-2009, 07:52 PM   #38
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      10-28-2009, 04:45 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
There is no doubt all the points you list are true and positives. The gray area is whether the (significant) extra cost and hassle of using nitrogen for street car use is warranted. That's something each individual can decide. If I had it in my garage, I'd use it for sure. Anyone know how much a system would cost for home use?

http://www.southteksystems.com/tire-blast.asp
That'a a joke..if you wanna do it yourself, you just tank filled with nitrogen, and swap it out when you're empty.
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      10-30-2009, 09:26 PM   #40
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Nitrogen is kind of pointless for a street car but can be useful on the track.
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      08-24-2010, 12:08 AM   #41
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I got a quote from an Audi dealer after taking an s4 for a test drive. It had a line for Nitrogen at 200$. Man are they gouging.
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      08-25-2010, 08:37 PM   #42
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For street cars IMO its more for peace of mind. I would always need to adjust my tire pressure every here and there. With Nitrogen, i still do it because of my OCD, but my pressure has stayed pretty consistant over the past few months, its varied 1 to 2 PSI in the last 5 months or so.
I dont think itll really be benificial in handling or tire life for me, but the peace of mind of knowing my tires PSI isnt way off after a few months is good for $20 NOT FOR $118!
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      08-25-2010, 09:03 PM   #43
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The air we breathe has 78% nitrogen, so paying anything for the extra 22% is complete overkill for a car IMO. Plus our tires always lose at least 1 psi per month regardless (more noticeable as weather cools, obviously), so I wouldn't do it even for free as I like to 'top off' my tires every couple of weeks (going to dealer 40 miles away just for that would be utterly stupid). Pure nitrogen makes sense on an airplane, where it might be 100F at departure, well below zero while on the air, and 50 at destination. We drivers experience very gradual temperature changes, making it completely unnecessary IMO, but to each his own.
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