BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
VF Engineering
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-22-2009, 09:20 AM   #23
!Xoible
Banned
 
Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

Posts: 46,037
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [3.50]
2007 335i  [4.50]
2008 528i  [4.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [4.00]
if you get free rear tires, sure
!Xoible is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-22-2009, 09:24 AM   #24
Nawaaz
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: .

Posts: 4,643
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
My issues with the C63 weren't with the power or the brakes, so I'm not sure that this new package makes the C63 significantly more desirable in my book.
If you don't mind me asking, what were the aspects that weren't satisfactory in your opinion?

No manual tranny was one of the main deal breakers for me.
Nawaaz is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-22-2009, 09:35 AM   #25
TLud
Colonel
 
TLud's Avatar
 
Drives: '12 Golf R
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas

Posts: 2,280
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nawaaz View Post
If you don't mind me asking, what were the aspects that weren't satisfactory in your opinion?
Well, let me preface this by saying that if I wanted a sedan, it would have been a tough decision between the M3 and C63. The biggest thing I didn't like about the C63 is the lack of a MT, and I wasn't impressed by the automatic either. The interior is very comfortable all around (even moreso than the M3), but I wasn't a fan of how it looks or the functionality of some of the technology. At that time (I'm not sure if this is still the case), if I wanted the LSD, I would have had to get the Performance Package, which was much too stiff and unforgiving on Houston streets. Even with the PP, it didn't have the confidence-inspiring handling of the M3. It's certainly no slouch, but it felt "nervous" at times and over-reacted to throttle input in certain situations.
__________________
'09 Interlagos Blue E92 M3 (sold to a good home)
TLud is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-22-2009, 09:36 AM   #26
montreal red
chris
 
montreal red's Avatar
 
Drives: White Boat
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto

Posts: 12,122
iTrader: (31)

Send a message via MSN to montreal red
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nawaaz View Post
If you don't mind me asking, what were the aspects that weren't satisfactory in your opinion?

No manual tranny was one of the main deal breakers for me.
+1
i was looking for a coupe with a manual tranny so that ruled out the c63 right away. left me with either the m3 or the s5... so between those two, its the m3 - no contest. now if the rs5 were on the market when i was shopping around, i may not be driving an m3 right now.
__________________

Current: 2013 F10 M5 & 2013 GLK350
997.1 GT3RS (gone)
2009 WRX STI (gone)
e92 M3 (gone)
montreal red is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 04:11 AM   #27
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,633
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Mercedes with it's 'Performance Package Plus' and BMW testing their M3 GT4 'Street', do you get the feeling that they are preparing to put up a fight with the eagerly anticipated RS5.
Not really footie, particularly for Mercedes as the C63 is a sedan while the RS5 is a coupe (and convertible). If Mercedes had a desire to compete for the same buyer as the RS5, they'd have developed a E63 AMG coupe (and convertible). But all current evidence suggests that there is no plans for such a car, even though the last two generations of CLK coupe (which the E coupe is the successor to, in everything but name) had AMG versions. Similarly prevailing rumors suggest that there is no RS4 sedan coming, so there will be no overlap in buyers there either.

IMHO, Mercedes introduced this package because it cost them little to nothing in R&D to do so. As pointed out by others above, they already have versions of this engine making plenty more than 487hp. So this engine is still crippled compared to their state of the art.

As for the BMW, we have no idea what it means yet. But certainly the precedent is there for a CSL both in the E36 and E46 generation so a more hardcore version of the E92 was not out of the realm of possibility. Even though BMW said they weren't doing it, we know that OEMs sometimes say one thing and then do the opposite.
__________________
-
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 04:55 AM   #28
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Not really footie, particularly for Mercedes as the C63 is a sedan while the RS5 is a coupe (and convertible). If Mercedes had a desire to compete for the same buyer as the RS5, they'd have developed a E63 AMG coupe (and convertible). But all current evidence suggests that there is no plans for such a car, even though the last two generations of CLK coupe (which the E coupe is the successor to, in everything but name) had AMG versions. Similarly prevailing rumors suggest that there is no RS4 sedan coming, so there will be no overlap in buyers there either.

IMHO, Mercedes introduced this package because it cost them little to nothing in R&D to do so. As pointed out by others above, they already have versions of this engine making plenty more than 487hp. So this engine is still crippled compared to their state of the art.

As for the BMW, we have no idea what it means yet. But certainly the precedent is there for a CSL both in the E36 and E46 generation so a more hardcore version of the E92 was not out of the realm of possibility. Even though BMW said they weren't doing it, we know that OEMs sometimes say one thing and then do the opposite.
There will be a RS5 Sportback though which is a 4 dr saloon come hatchback/coupe but with only 4 seats instead of 5 and the rumour is that the RS4 Avant is still got the green light. Both will be competing with the C63 though chances are they won't be coming Stateside anyway.

If the shoe was on the other foot and it was BMW where about to release the new M3 when both of the other brands started to show improvements on both their models would we all not agree that the intro the M3 had somehow spurred them into action.

I'm not trying to play up the intro of the RS5 or trying to say it's something almighty but it probably is the reason for the performance pack on the C63 being release now of all times and the GT4 'Street' hammering around the ring. Competition is healthy and leads to better products allround.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 05:20 AM   #29
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,633
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
There will be a RS5 Sportback though which is a 4 dr saloon come hatchback/coupe but with only 4 seats instead of 5
Not according to Fourtitude, who has a pretty good track record:

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=4598145

Quote:
and the rumour is that the RS4 Avant is still got the green light. Both will be competing with the C63 though chances are they won't be coming Stateside anyway.
Sure there is the RS4 wagon, but you were only talking about the RS5 in your post. I brought up the RS4 as a footnote in my reply. The timing of the RS4 isn't even known from what I have seen, all spyshots out there that I've seen are RS5.

Quote:
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was BMW where about to release the new M3 when both of the other brands started to show improvements on both their models would we all not agree that the intro the M3 had somehow spurred them into action.
I wouldn't conclude that at all, especially when we are talking about cars of two completely differing form factors. Instead, when BMW is about to release a new M3, I just assume that it is due to their normal production plans, and its specifications were decided long ago based on any inside information they may have had about the competition at that time.

Quote:
I'm not trying to play up the intro of the RS5 or trying to say it's something almighty
Ok. Well I didn't necessarily suspect that you were, but thank you for clarifying.

Quote:
but it probably is the reason for the performance pack on the C63 being release now of all times and the GT4 'Street' hammering around the ring.
I still don't see any hard evidence of that whatsoever. So we'll just have to disagree on this.
__________________
-
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 05:33 AM   #30
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
 
Robin_NL's Avatar
 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

Posts: 4,682
iTrader: (0)

Ah nice, a thread about the souped up C63, great car !

Oh it's more about the Audi RS5 I see....
Robin_NL is offline   Netherlands
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 05:46 AM   #31
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Not according to Fourtitude, who has a pretty good track record:

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=4598145.
Fourtitude are usually a very good source for future Audis. We will have to see if they are correct on that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sure there is the RS4 wagon, but you were only talking about the RS5 in your post. I brought up the RS4 as a footnote in my reply. The timing of the RS4 isn't even known from what I have seen, all spyshots out there that I've seen are RS5.
I agree that I used the RS5 and still stand by it. Whether the RS4 comes out soon will depend on whether the above comments are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I wouldn't conclude that at all, especially when we are talking about cars of two completely differing form factors. Instead, when BMW is about to release a new M3, I just assume that it is due to their normal production plans, and its specifications were decided long ago based on any inside information they may have had about the competition at that time.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Example next M3 due in 2012~13 (personally I think 2012) comes with it's 6 cylinder turbo 450~470hp unit and 1560~1600kgs, probably lightening performance and incredible handling that will be way better than the competition. Is it not logical to come to the conclusion I have if both Audi and Merc developed improvements for their most direct competitor of the M3 just prior to it's release that they were spurred on into action with the fear of losing sales due to what they believe the next the M3 would be like. After all Mercedes already have a Performance Pack for the C63, it includes all of the above minus the power hike, only this one probable takes the handling and involvement even further........why? Likewise the GT4 'Street', the current M3 is already the daddy among the group why even consider an improved version of already it's best selling M3 model ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Ok. Well I didn't necessarily suspect that you were, but thank you for clarifying.
Good, then finally I can discuss things without fear of what people may think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I still don't see any hard evidence of that whatsoever. So we'll just have to disagree on this.
That perfectly acceptable and I respect your opinion, I was only offering my opinion on this and I know not everyone will agree with it.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 06:21 AM   #32
bobbyd1961
Banned
 
Drives: 2009 M3 sedan LeMans Blue
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: new jersey

Posts: 2,411
iTrader: (0)

they need an exterior plus package since it looks like crap
bobbyd1961 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 06:38 AM   #33
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: 2015 Felt IA2
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,633
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Example next M3 due in 2012~13 (personally I think 2012) comes with it's 6 cylinder turbo 450~470hp unit and 1560~1600kgs, probably lightening performance and incredible handling that will be way better than the competition.
But that's the normal product cycle. In your own words:

"It's not like BMW nor Mercedes to offer improvement beyond what they already have up to now."

You were specifically talking about uncharacteristic changes to the car after initial release, not a brand new car like the F3x M3 you mention above will be.

Quote:
Good, then finally I can discuss things without fear of what people may think.
Well, I wouldn't necessarily go that far. For example, someone could still point out how peculiar it might seem to them that you should choose to bring up Audi in this thread. After all, the discussion was about the C63, and this is an M3 forum. One could easily wonder - if you had no particular bias toward Audi, suppose - why your original post didn't go something more like this:

"With it's 'Performance Package Plus' do you get the feeling that Mercedes is preparing to put up a fight with the M3 GT4 'Street' BMW is testing.

It's not like Mercedes to offer improvement beyond what they already have up to now. I wonder do they know something about the potential of the M3 GT4 'Street' that we all don't? ?

Great news that these models are being spiced up even further for the enthusiast. "


Such a post would quite possibly be the one more likely to come to the mind of the average person on this forum, one could speculate (if one were so inclined).

Ah but I digress now. I wouldn't worry about such things. You oughtn't have any cause to if you believe that you are communications are in keeping with the spirit of the forum.

Quote:
That perfectly acceptable and I respect your opinion, I was only offering my opinion on this and I know not everyone will agree with it.
__________________
-
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 09:01 AM   #34
Nawaaz
Brigadier General
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: .

Posts: 4,643
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
Well, let me preface this by saying that if I wanted a sedan, it would have been a tough decision between the M3 and C63. The biggest thing I didn't like about the C63 is the lack of a MT, and I wasn't impressed by the automatic either. The interior is very comfortable all around (even moreso than the M3), but I wasn't a fan of how it looks or the functionality of some of the technology. At that time (I'm not sure if this is still the case), if I wanted the LSD, I would have had to get the Performance Package, which was much too stiff and unforgiving on Houston streets. Even with the PP, it didn't have the confidence-inspiring handling of the M3. It's certainly no slouch, but it felt "nervous" at times and over-reacted to throttle input in certain situations.
Oh, I see.

I test drove it about 2 times, but I guess I didn't drive it hard enough to really understand some of its weaknesses.

I have to admit that I felt jealous when I found out that the C63 was just a reflash away from creeping over 500 hp!

Thanks for your response Tom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal red View Post
+1
i was looking for a coupe with a manual tranny so that ruled out the c63 right away. left me with either the m3 or the s5... so between those two, its the m3 - no contest. now if the rs5 were on the market when i was shopping around, i may not be driving an m3 right now.
I can relate, except for the fact that I admire the look of some of these sedans.
Nawaaz is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 12:48 PM   #35
MikeG_C63_AMG
First Lieutenant
 
MikeG_C63_AMG's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 Eurocharged C63 AMG
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hoboken,NJ

Posts: 378
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbyd1961 View Post
they need an exterior plus package since it looks like crap


Another quality post in the "M3 Vs" section.
MikeG_C63_AMG is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 12:56 PM   #36
SUB-ZERO
Lieutenant Colonel
 
SUB-ZERO's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 997TT Arctic Silver
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: VA

Posts: 1,562
iTrader: (0)

I think the C63 looks great! Sure is an eye-catcher seeing one on the street. If I were to consider a four-door, it would be a difficult choice for me between the M3 sedan and the C63.

-SZ
SUB-ZERO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 01:07 PM   #37
swamp2
Lieutenant General
 
swamp2's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

Posts: 10,141
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post


Another quality post in the "M3 Vs" section.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions most of all in regards to aesthetics. He did not say the car IS crap.

+1 for all of those who noticed the continual Pro-Audi stuff from foot, so predictable...
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
swamp2 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 01:46 PM   #38
ersin
Brigadier General
 
ersin's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 IB E92 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

Posts: 4,067
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
+1 for all of those who noticed the continual Pro-Audi stuff from foot, so predictable...
For all those who noticed? How can you not notice?
__________________

I've been assimilated. 6MT/ZPP/18"/PS extended.
ersin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 02:02 PM   #39
Archon
Private First Class
 
Drives: E92 M3 DCT AW/BLK
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SF Bay Area

Posts: 153
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
For all those who noticed? How can you not notice?
Indeed.

Good job Merc. I love my E92 M3 but this is how you do a proper LCI/Edition version
Archon is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 02:08 PM   #40
MikeG_C63_AMG
First Lieutenant
 
MikeG_C63_AMG's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 Eurocharged C63 AMG
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hoboken,NJ

Posts: 378
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions most of all in regards to aesthetics. He did not say the car IS crap.

+1 for all of those who noticed the continual Pro-Audi stuff from foot, so predictable...
I COMPLETELY agree with your first statement. However to say since he said it looks like "crap" but never said "is crap" would be playing defense attorney. Those comments are what makes threads like this one and the several that came before it eventually turn nasty and get closed.
MikeG_C63_AMG is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 02:10 PM   #41
shahsk30
Banned
 
Drives: slow BMW
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dfw, tx

Posts: 992
iTrader: (0)

this looks very interesting. its pretty expensive though but hopefully its worth the price.
shahsk30 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 02:50 PM   #42
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahsk30 View Post
this looks very interesting. its pretty expensive though but hopefully its worth the price.
It is expensive but it's not a simple chip tune, the internals also get a work over which might explain some of the expense.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      10-23-2009, 02:59 PM   #43
footie
Major General
 
footie's Avatar
 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

Posts: 7,507
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
I COMPLETELY agree with your first statement. However to say since he said it looks like "crap" but never said "is crap" would be playing defense attorney. Those comments are what makes threads like this one and the several that came before it eventually turn nasty and get closed.
The C63 could never be described as crap, not in looks nor the car itself. Mental, bonkers and loopy might spring to mind but definitely not crap.

It still amazes me that Mercedes classes fitting something over six litres in a car the size of a mondeo as normal and thank heavens for them. I can only imagine when they finally drop the auto for a proper DCT it will be a truly exceptional machine.
footie is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      10-24-2009, 10:19 AM   #44
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
 
Robin_NL's Avatar
 
Drives: AW 1M , Assetto Corsa
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Europe

Posts: 4,682
iTrader: (0)

I almost bought a C63 a year ago, just like the saying 'there is no substitute for cubic inches', but there is, and it's called //M and revs.
Robin_NL is offline   Netherlands
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:28 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST