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View Poll Results: Are you religious?
Religious 58 44.62%
Atheist 32 24.62%
Agnostic 40 30.77%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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      11-17-2009, 06:34 PM   #133
DougLikesBMW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroy View Post
The poll is pretty close... I didn't expect that.
It's not actually close, OP set up the poll wrong.

The poll is actually

Religious:27 - Agnostic Atheist:45
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      11-17-2009, 08:19 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
EXACTLY!!!!

Its as if the Christians are saying, "No! You can't be miserable in marriage! Misery and religion is only reserved for heteros!"

Meanwhile, in their misery, they go find prostitutes. Prostitutes are in the bible. So why the angst against whores? Oldest profession anyone?

CONFUSED.
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      11-18-2009, 10:39 AM   #135
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I won't be the first, nor the last Christian to tell you: "I am NOT perfect." I've never pretended to be, never will. I make mistakes, but with a contrite heart I ask God for forgiveness. If I offended a human along the way, I also ask for their forgiveness. There were people running around cutting each others' heads off, whipping slaves, and nailing people to tress in the bible too, but do you condone those actions?

I'm tempted to drink, glutony, and sexual depravity every minute of my waking day. I might even think about following thru on it, but then I remember (usually) that Jesus asked me not to turn away from His love, and (usually) I turn my back on those vices that only distance me from true love.

Best regards,
Wede
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      11-18-2009, 02:21 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
It's not actually close, OP set up the poll wrong.

The poll is actually

Religious:27 - Agnostic Atheist:45
Or it actually could be:

Atheist: 22 - Religious/Agnostic: 54



The real translation of the poll is:

Religious - 28

Atheist: 22

Undecided: 26

At the time of this post anyway....
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      11-19-2009, 09:55 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Or it actually could be:

Atheist: 22 - Religious/Agnostic: 54



The real translation of the poll is:

Religious - 28

Atheist: 22

Undecided: 26

At the time of this post anyway....
You don't even know what agnostic means...it certainly doesn't mean undecided.

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      11-19-2009, 08:38 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
You don't even know what agnostic means...it certainly doesn't mean undecided.

facepalm.jpg
I do love your candor Douglas....

Quote:
Evolution of the term "Agnostic" over time:

Three main meanings have been associated with "Agnostic" since Thomas H. Huxley invented the term in the mid-19th century
Huxley defined agnosticism as follows: "... it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism."
"... an agnostic is someone who not only is undecided concerning the existence of God, but who also thinks that the question of God’s existence is in principle unanswerable. We cannot know whether or not God exists, according to an agnostic, and should therefore neither believe nor disbelieve in him."
An agnostic is undecided about whether or not God exists.
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Last edited by Mr Tonka; 11-20-2009 at 12:09 AM.
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      11-19-2009, 09:38 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
You don't even know what agnostic means...it certainly doesn't mean undecided.

facepalm.jpg
Agnostic...a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

Doubt...to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.
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      11-19-2009, 10:27 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougLikesBMW View Post
You don't even know what agnostic means...it certainly doesn't mean undecided.

facepalm.jpg
You are right.

Agnosticism is not undecided at all. It's the middle-ground. Undecided is...well...undecided. Agnostics aren't trying to decide anything; they're just skeptical of theological things (both atheistic and theistic).

When I think of undecided, I think of "I don't know who to choose. I'll listen to you and then listen to you. Whoever gives the best argument wins me." That's not really agnosticism :-/
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      11-20-2009, 12:15 AM   #141
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Well, the quote in my previous post is from the "inventor" of the term. Dictionary.com and MW can say what they want, but it seems clear that the term was invented in the context of belief or unbelief in God. I suppose i'll stick with the explanation from the person who actually coined the term.
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      11-20-2009, 01:14 PM   #142
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A good discussion and a lot of interesting comments and observations.
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      11-20-2009, 01:30 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Well, the quote in my previous post is from the "inventor" of the term. Dictionary.com and MW can say what they want, but it seems clear that the term was invented in the context of belief or unbelief in God. I suppose i'll stick with the explanation from the person who actually coined the term.
True, but in the same amount of time since the term was invented, look at how drastically the definition of a "Republican" or "Democrat" has changed.
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      11-20-2009, 03:17 PM   #144
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Seems to me that the perceptions have drastically changed, not definition. I doubt you’ll find that the actual definition has changed at all. Especially since a Republican is simply someone who advocates a republic. A democrat advocates a democracy.

… unless I’m missing your point.
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      11-20-2009, 03:20 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
… unless I’m missing your point.
Yeah pretty much. "Agnostic" is more of a label. Just like a "Democrat" or "Republican". Now, if you would have sought out the meaning behind these labels almost two hundred years ago, you'd pretty much be backwards of where we are today. I'm just saying that label definitions change. Just a different way of looking at it.
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      11-20-2009, 04:10 PM   #146
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Are we using the terms "label" & "perception" for the same meaning.

People can't just make a term mean what they want it to mean just because it works better for them. A persons interpretation of a word can change, or the word can be used in additional contexts, but it still holds it's original meaning. Agnostic has a definition, just as Democrat & Republican. But you are correct; by definition those words are used to describe (insert label) a person’s view or stance on a particular subject.
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      11-20-2009, 04:17 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Are we using the terms "label" & "perception" for the same meaning.

People can't just make a term mean what they want it to mean just because it works better for them. A persons interpretation of a word can change, or the word can be used in additional contexts, but it still holds it's original meaning. Agnostic has a definition, just as Democrat & Republican. But you are correct; by definition those words are used to describe (insert label) a person’s view or stance on a particular subject.
OK now we're getting too deep. I was just providing a simile which may or may not have been applicable or adequate. It's just the first thing that came to my mind.

Being "an Agnostic" may not be the same as it used to be, regardless of whether the definition of the word has changed. That's all. Makes sense to me, as I am not, and will never be, an English major.
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      11-20-2009, 05:09 PM   #148
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Zell. I don't think you saw my first reply to this thread. I'll repost it below. Agnostic is not a middle ground. It doesn't have anything to do with what you believe, but what you know or think is knowable. Most people who consider themselves agnostic lack any sort of religious view. They are without theism- atheist.

Atheism is the lack of theological belief- not a type of theological belief. It is as much of a theological belief as not collecting stamps is a hobby. Naturalism is the closest thing the majority of atheists could call a belief, but that belief is in no way theological.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carve
Agnostic is literally "without knowledge". You don't know for certain, or, some would say, think something is unknowable. ALMOST EVERYONE, atheist and theist, falls into this catagory.

Agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism. A gnostic theist/atheist is someone who claims to know for certain god(s) do/don't exist.


1. Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe any god exists, but doesn't claim to know whether this is actually true
2. Gnostic-Atheist : believes that no god exists and claims to know that this belief is true
3. Agnostic-Theist: believes a god exists, but doesn't claim to know that this belief is true
4. Gnostic-Theist: believes a god exists and claims to know that this belief is true

Please note that often, the gnostics of both positions often have to do with practical considerations. e.g. the gnostic atheist can claim to know gods don't exist with the same kind of certainty he knows pegasus's don't exist (they might somewhere, but we shouldn't consider it a practical possibility). Conversely, a gnostic theist may claim to "know" gods exist in the same way they "know" who their birth mother is. Maybe they're adopted, but there's no reason to think so.

Many people who label themselves "agnostic" do so to avoid the social stigma of atheism, even though they hold no belief in gods and are therefore atheist (literally, "without theism"). I even fell into this catagory until a few years ago. Now, I recognize I'm an atheist because I don't believe in any of it. I'm an agnostic atheist though. If I saw convincing evidence, my position could change.

If you believe in gods, even if that belief isn't 100% certain, or the gods you believe in don't fall into an established religion (ie, something you made up), you're a theist. Otherwise, you're an atheist. If you simply don't know/don't care, you by default don't hold any belief in gods and are an atheist.
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      11-20-2009, 05:14 PM   #149
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I believe in God; however, organized religion has forever been founded, molded, and practiced by some of the most corrupt, alterior motive-driven, and evil human beings in the history of the human race.
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      11-21-2009, 08:58 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
I believe in God; however, organized religion has forever been founded, molded, and practiced by some of the most corrupt, alterior motive-driven, and evil human beings in the history of the human race.

Wouldn't your belief in god be based on these corrupt systems in some way?
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      11-21-2009, 04:31 PM   #151
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Wouldn't your belief in god be based on these corrupt systems in some way?
What do you mean? I don't believe in organized religion, but I believe in a higher power, and of course, like everyone else, my beliefs have been influenced by everyone around me in one way or another.
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      11-21-2009, 04:48 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
I believe in God; however, organized religion has forever been founded, molded, and practiced by some of the most corrupt, alterior motive-driven, and evil human beings in the history of the human race.
I would like to add the following to your descriptives of corrupt, alterior motive-driven, and evil:

perverse
demented
sick
disgusting
cruel
hypocritical
intolerant
murdering
pedophilic
psychotic
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      11-21-2009, 07:43 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty M View Post
I would like to add the following to your descriptives of corrupt, alterior motive-driven, and evil:

perverse
demented
sick
disgusting
cruel
hypocritical
intolerant
murdering
pedophilic
psychotic
What's your point?
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      11-21-2009, 08:48 PM   #154
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What's your point?
I think he's elaborating on the premis that organized religion is sketchy. After all, what percentage of the most violent/evil events in history were done in the name of one form of organized religion or another?
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