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      10-25-2009, 05:24 AM   #67
Robin_NL
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Stefan Bellof's 956 didn't have awd at that time and neither did this car

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The Nurburgring racetrack has a new record! If the time obtained by Gumpert was 7m 11.57s now listen to this: Radical SR8, driven by Dutch driver Michael Vergers, obtained an impressive 6m 48s!
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      10-25-2009, 06:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
Stefan Bellof's 956 didn't have awd at that time and neither did this car



I agree fully, both both these cars take full advantage of aerodynamics and both aren't exactly normal production road cars.

But I'm sure both would have benefitted from awd none the less.
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      10-25-2009, 06:54 AM   #69
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I agree fully, both both these cars take full advantage of aerodynamics and both aren't exactly normal production road cars.

But I'm sure both would have benefitted from awd none the less.
Maybe, we'll never know, theoretically with awd those things are getting a lot heavier relatively spoken, turn in can become less agile etcetera...
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      10-25-2009, 07:52 AM   #70
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Maybe, we'll never know, theoretically with awd those things are getting a lot heavier relatively spoken, turn in can become less agile etcetera...
You are quite right, awd does add weight, though how much depends on the system used. The weight of awd has less of a disadvantage on performance as much as it does in the real world of practical motoring where emissions and economy are more important.

In reality the average awd system weighs between 50-80kgs, now on your average car of say 1500-1750kgs that isn't a huge increase, but on a super lightweight like the Radical or Caterham it would blunt acceleration and might have enough of a negative effect that could never be over come by any improvement in the corners.
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      10-25-2009, 08:13 AM   #71
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You are quite right, awd does add weight, though how much depends on the system used. The weight of awd has less of a disadvantage on performance as much as it does in the real world of practical motoring where emissions and economy are more important.

In reality the average awd system weighs between 50-80kgs, now on your average car of say 1500-1750kgs that isn't a huge increase, but on a super lightweight like the Radical or Caterham it would blunt acceleration and might have enough of a negative effect that could never be over come by any improvement in the corners.
exactly.

Anyway, overhere no winter yet 14 degrees celsius, a bit sunshine, dunno, maybe Al Gore is right after all.
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      10-25-2009, 02:49 PM   #72
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exactly.

Anyway, overhere no winter yet 14 degrees celsius, a bit sunshine, dunno, maybe Al Gore is right after all.
Same here, very mild weather though always wet. I'm surprised how tail happy the big Jag is, probably all those 600Nm helping there, though it's not the sort of thing one gets up to in a Jag, not cricket old chap.
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      10-27-2009, 09:08 PM   #73
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The new S4 handles great but in my opinion still doesn't handle like the M3 and this is coming from a soon to be 2010 S4 owner. I love the M3 engineering, it is in my opinion the best bang for the buck handling car. But I ended up choosing the S4 because I live in Canada in which the AWD is a huge factor for me. Also when driving on the streets it is much easier to drive the S4 with AWD at 9/10 than to drive the M3 IMO. The M3 is definitely the best track car in which you can fully take advantage of the engineering but on the streets it is a little tougher since I am no pro driver.
To me the M3 is the ultimate affordable track car and the S4 is the ultimate affordable street car. If I lived in California and was able to up my driving skills to be able to drift on an on ramp then my opinion may change.
I think one should just enjoy which car one has chosen and if one is lucky enough to have both then they should share.
I agree . I used to have a stage 2 b5s4. Very fun but no comparison to the M3 in drive. If I were to buy a car that I needed for winter I would also pick the S4.

Lucky for me I have my M3 and am picking up my new Audi A4 soon as my daily driver.
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      10-27-2009, 10:11 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
The new S4 handles great but in my opinion still doesn't handle like the M3 and this is coming from a soon to be 2010 S4 owner. I love the M3 engineering, it is in my opinion the best bang for the buck handling car. But I ended up choosing the S4 because I live in Canada in which the AWD is a huge factor for me. Also when driving on the streets it is much easier to drive the S4 with AWD at 9/10 than to drive the M3 IMO. The M3 is definitely the best track car in which you can fully take advantage of the engineering but on the streets it is a little tougher since I am no pro driver.
To me the M3 is the ultimate affordable track car and the S4 is the ultimate affordable street car. If I lived in California and was able to up my driving skills to be able to drift on an on ramp then my opinion may change.
I think one should just enjoy which car one has chosen and if one is lucky enough to have both then they should share.
M3 does handle great indeed! But if we are talking about best handling for the price, the new Corvette Grandsport is looking mighty fine as well. But GAHHHH, I'd still get the M3.
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      10-28-2009, 02:38 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
The new S4 handles great but in my opinion still doesn't handle like the M3 and this is coming from a soon to be 2010 S4 owner. I love the M3 engineering, it is in my opinion the best bang for the buck handling car. But I ended up choosing the S4 because I live in Canada in which the AWD is a huge factor for me. Also when driving on the streets it is much easier to drive the S4 with AWD at 9/10 than to drive the M3 IMO. The M3 is definitely the best track car in which you can fully take advantage of the engineering but on the streets it is a little tougher since I am no pro driver.
To me the M3 is the ultimate affordable track car and the S4 is the ultimate affordable street car. If I lived in California and was able to up my driving skills to be able to drift on an on ramp then my opinion may change.
I think one should just enjoy which car one has chosen and if one is lucky enough to have both then they should share.
+10000000000000000

That has always been my point about Audi Quattros and the reason why SoCal members can't seem to GET that point. It's not fan boy talk, just practical when 99% of your driving is on the street and the weather is ever changing.

P.S.
Did you get yours with full Audi Select Drive andSportsdiff, two things that definitely spice up the whole driving experience of the S4 when you do finally take to the track.
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      10-28-2009, 10:54 AM   #76
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A4 why don't you just step up to the S4? Base S4 is 53k in Canada, how much are you paying for your A4?
Because I know myself... I will never just leave with a BASE S4 and next thing you know you're over 65k+tax!

I got a used A4 Premium with Tech package, Bang and Olufson system and Audi S drive select from the local Audi dealership with 12k on it. Another white car but the deal was too good to not take. Oh yeah they also threw in the winter tires.
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      10-28-2009, 02:16 PM   #77
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[quote=M3 Montreal;6112186]Because I know myself... I will never just leave with a BASE S4 and next thing you know you're over 65k+tax!

I got a used A4 Premium with Tech package, Bang and Olufson system and Audi S drive select from the local Audi dealership with 12k on it. Another white car but the deal was too good to not take. Oh yeah they also threw in the winter tires.

Hi montreal

I'm looking at doing the same thing. How much did you pay for the A4 it you don't mind me asking.
thanks
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      10-28-2009, 02:34 PM   #78
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S4 = 335

RS4 = M3

shouldn't you be asking should I get a RS4 or a M3
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      10-28-2009, 02:56 PM   #79
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A4 why don't you just step up to the S4? Base S4 is 53k in Canada, how much are you paying for your A4?
LOL... You actually got me to go back (my a4 wont be ready till tomorrow) and see about picking up a BASE S4 with Differential as the only feature. There were NONE available so difference would have been 20k+ .

Im therefore sticking with the loaded used A4 I posted above.

Had they had a BASE with differential I would have done it. lol. WOuld have been one hell of a nice winter car!

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      10-28-2009, 04:47 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
The new S4 handles great but in my opinion still doesn't handle like the M3 and this is coming from a soon to be 2010 S4 owner. I love the M3 engineering, it is in my opinion the best bang for the buck handling car. But I ended up choosing the S4 because I live in Canada in which the AWD is a huge factor for me. Also when driving on the streets it is much easier to drive the S4 with AWD at 9/10 than to drive the M3 IMO. The M3 is definitely the best track car in which you can fully take advantage of the engineering but on the streets it is a little tougher since I am no pro driver.
To me the M3 is the ultimate affordable track car and the S4 is the ultimate affordable street car. If I lived in California and was able to up my driving skills to be able to drift on an on ramp then my opinion may change.
I think one should just enjoy which car one has chosen and if one is lucky enough to have both then they should share.
This is why I love FL. No need for AWD. It's dry 95% of the time.
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      10-28-2009, 06:10 PM   #81
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This is why I love FL. No need for AWD. It's dry 95% of the time.
Yup...you guys with no snow are lucky. Meanwhile we need to dish out some cash for a second car.

Mind you , it doesnt bother me that much as it makes me really appreciate the M3 even more whenever I get behind the wheel.
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      10-28-2009, 06:57 PM   #82
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The M3 is a winter car.
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      10-29-2009, 05:54 AM   #83
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shouldn't you be asking should I get a RS4 or a M3
Not if he wants to buy a new car. RS4 is great but looks old now with the B8 here. And there isn't even going to be a B8 RS4 (if rumors hold true).
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      10-29-2009, 11:04 AM   #84
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Not if he wants to buy a new car. RS4 is great but looks old now with the B8 here. And there isn't even going to be a B8 RS4 (if rumors hold true).
You are correct... Things look bleak as far as the RS4 goes. No RS4 here in canada is scheduled...

Personally, I still like the Old look RS4. In fact I prefer it over the new look S4.
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      10-29-2009, 11:25 AM   #85
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You are correct... Things look bleak as far as the RS4 goes. No RS4 here in canada is scheduled...

Personally, I still like the Old look RS4. In fact I prefer it over the new look S4.
+1. the rs4 still look better than the new s4 though by a mile though.
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      10-29-2009, 04:42 PM   #86
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S4 could be underated? http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/28/r...is-underrated/
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      10-29-2009, 06:37 PM   #87
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Here's proof the S4 is WAY underrated. This thing dyno'ed better than most stock M3's!!! And that's with AWD too.

http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4b8/msgs/3476.phtml

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      10-29-2009, 07:22 PM   #88
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Footie, a couple of points if I may. I happen to own a quattro S car & an M3 so maybe my input might be valid.

1stly, Audi was banned for a couple of reasons. The 4WD system they used in BTCC was not homologated for use as it was not found in the production cars. It was a totally different system.

But I cannot lie, over the course of a full race distance the quattro was superior. It took care of the tyres better & the trick quattro system did help under braking as well with some nifty features that weren't in the production cars.

But if you followed the series, you will see that the other teams found ways to counter & towards the end of the 2nd season the 2WD cars were winning again. Had the quattro's not been banned I doubt they would have won again. A good race team can take any car & make it fast. 4WD has inherent weaknesses & a race team will make use of it's strengths & set the car up so as not to exhibit an weakness. Like understeer can be ironed out with the right suspension settings. But a road car will still have those weaknesses. The audi team had the right resources, & good drivers, a good setup & it did well. It's not all about quattro.

Next point is about the R8 beating the 2WD Lambo or whatever. Did it not maybe occur to you that the R8 maybe handles better? And that's why it's faster?

Do you believe handling is all about traction? And drivetrain layout? Have you driven on a circuit. Handling is a black art that has many facets to it & traction is only a small part of it. Weight, weight distribution, suspension geometry, centre of gravity, polar moment of inertia, suspension setup, camber castor, ride height, etc Dam that's just out the top of my head, I'm sure I've missed plenty other factors.

All 4WD does is distribute the tractive load to 4 wheels instead of 2. That helps in some instances when the rears are burdened with too much load to sustain both tractive & cornering forces. But that's a few % of a lap. The rest of the lap, it makes no difference and may be a hindrance. Remember it works both ways. A RWD doesn't send power to the front, so 100% of the frint tyres' grip is available for cornering. And when you enter a corner the front is all important.
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