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      10-23-2009, 05:06 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
2wd Gallardo? You must be talking about the new 550-2 Valentino Balboni I guess. Where'd you see that car compared to an R8 V10? I'm curious and would like to read that review.
CAR did their best driver's car bit for this year in their latest edition. Rockingham was the course and the R8v10 out-performed it, something I knew would happen.

I'll scan it in later for you to read.

P.S.

The Valentino is a very involving and exciting drive but when developed correctly the awd version is better.
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      10-23-2009, 05:32 AM   #46
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CAR did their best driver's car bit for this year in their latest edition. Rockingham was the course and the R8v10 out-performed it, something I knew would happen.

I'll scan it in later for you to read.

P.S.

The Valentino is a very involving and exciting drive but when developed correctly the awd version is better.
Cool, thanks. Yeah I am not necessarily surprised at the result either, although I have to wonder also how the 560-4 would have performed in this same test.
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      10-23-2009, 05:48 AM   #47
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Cool, thanks. Yeah I am not necessarily surprised at the result either, although I have to wonder also how the 560-4 would have performed in this same test.
Probably a little ahead of the R8v10, but only just.
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      10-23-2009, 06:41 AM   #48
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Your knowledge of the history of all forms of motorsport is quite limited if you genuinely believe those about comments to be true.

In truth awd has been continuously banned from most forms of motorsport because it gives an unfair advantage and ultimately costs far more to develop properly which in turn benefits the better funded competitors like manufacturers.

Rwd keep competition close because it's very limited on what improvements can be done over and above your competition, better to watch and most exciting for all competing.



Do you genuinely believe that if Porsche decided to develop a hardcore version of the Turbo that it wouldn't be their quickest on the track. For a start it's plain to just about everyone here that such a car could easily cope with more power than it's two wheel drive equivalent but Porsche realise as I do too that it wouldn't be as involving a drive and that is what most probably want, especially as these cars are seldom driven in the rain or beyond the occasional blast at the weekend, be it on a back road or on the track.

A perfect example of 4wd being better than 2wd is the Gallardo, the R8v10 is a quicker car on the track than the 2wd Gallardo, even with a huge weight penalty and less power.

P.S.

I'll ask you a question, which would stay on the road the longest without the aid of the rear wing for downforce, would it be the GT2 or the Turbo?

Clearly I could talk till the cows come home but you will continue to deny the benefits in awd even though I openly admit to you that it's the least involving of the two.
The part in bold above is indeed true. Audi does not have the opportunity to compete with its Quattro AWD in most forms of road racing, since it was banned from virtually all sanctioning bodies a number of years ago.

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_5046...wsarticle.html
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      10-23-2009, 06:48 AM   #49
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Probably a little ahead of the R8v10, but only just.
Quite possibly so. Likely even. But in case it were to also get beaten by the R8, then we'd have to conclude that other factors besides just the drive wheels that contributed to the results. This is why I wish they had tested that car (the 560-4) also. Without it in the mix, there leaves that little shred of doubt.
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      10-23-2009, 07:13 AM   #50
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The part in bold above is indeed true. Audi does not have the opportunity to compete with its Quattro AWD in most forms of road racing, since it was banned from virtually all sanctioning bodies a number of years ago.

http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_5046...wsarticle.html
I wasn't mentioning Audi in my comments mainly because it includes all manufacturers that have used awd in the past. Only rallying, ice racing and rallycross use awd without fear of being banned.
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      10-23-2009, 07:16 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quite possibly so. Likely even. But in case it were to also get beaten by the R8, then we'd have to conclude that other factors besides just the drive wheels that contributed to the results. This is why I wish they had tested that car (the 560-4) also. Without it in the mix, there leaves that little shred of doubt.
I know what you mean, but such a suggestion is giving Audi a lot of credit as a manufacturer who knows how to produce a decent handling car, are you sure that's allowed on this forum?
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      10-23-2009, 08:29 AM   #52
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I know what you mean, but such a suggestion is giving Audi a lot of credit as a manufacturer who knows how to produce a decent handling car, are you sure that's allowed on this forum?
Allowed? Certainly it is - this very thread is about the S4 right? And I do see plenty of praise in here already. Plus, the Gallardo and R8 are both VAG products anyway, and share much of their architecture so it should surprise no one that they perform similarly.
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      10-23-2009, 08:49 AM   #53
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Footie... you're amusing. Yes, I'm quite aware of audi's banning in racing. And remember it well in the trans am days, but that's a U.S. thing...

I'm sorry that we disagree on the ultimate motorsports vehicles being RWD vs. AWD. Lamborghini is hardly leading the way in any motorsports ring. They're always too heavy.

Ferrari & Porsche I felt were fair examples, with Porsche even having the ability to offer such a vehicle in AWD and chooses not to. Based purely on the understanding, that the additional weight just cannot be overcome.

Yes, Downforce, and Wings (and tires) are very critical in making a RWD car perform... but that's exactly why they outperform AWD.

I just think it's old to say 'RWD' can't put down power... etc... etc... Have you noticed the Ring Times?

The R8 is a great car... But the ZR1 has no problem putting down it's 600+ HP... and neither does the GT2 porsche, or new Ferrari.

Yes... they can spin the tires at will... it's takes a 'driver'... but at the end of the day... they turn faster laptimes than those of their AWD competitors.

Typically awd banning in motorsports is because of rule limitations... that give them an unfair advantage, when 'downforce' isn't free... or when tire compounds are restricted etc... etc...
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      10-23-2009, 09:37 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Allowed? Certainly it is - this very thread is about the S4 right? And I do see plenty of praise in here already. Plus, the Gallardo and R8 are both VAG products anyway, and share much of their architecture so it should surprise no one that they perform similarly.
I meant it very much tongue in cheek by the way.
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      10-23-2009, 09:45 AM   #55
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I wasn't mentioning Audi in my comments mainly because it includes all manufacturers that have used awd in the past. Only rallying, ice racing and rallycross use awd without fear of being banned.
this is true. nissan gtr r32 smoked everything on the track back then and they had to ban it.
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      10-23-2009, 09:47 AM   #56
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Footie... you're amusing. Yes, I'm quite aware of audi's banning in racing. And remember it well in the trans am days, but that's a U.S. thing...

I'm sorry that we disagree on the ultimate motorsports vehicles being RWD vs. AWD. Lamborghini is hardly leading the way in any motorsports ring. They're always too heavy.

Ferrari & Porsche I felt were fair examples, with Porsche even having the ability to offer such a vehicle in AWD and chooses not to. Based purely on the understanding, that the additional weight just cannot be overcome.

Yes, Downforce, and Wings (and tires) are very critical in making a RWD car perform... but that's exactly why they outperform AWD.

I just think it's old to say 'RWD' can't put down power... etc... etc... Have you noticed the Ring Times?

The R8 is a great car... But the ZR1 has no problem putting down it's 600+ HP... and neither does the GT2 porsche, or new Ferrari.

Yes... they can spin the tires at will... it's takes a 'driver'... but at the end of the day... they turn faster laptimes than those of their AWD competitors.

Typically awd banning in motorsports is because of rule limitations... that give them an unfair advantage, when 'downforce' isn't free... or when tire compounds are restricted etc... etc...
not sure if this is true bro, cause awd is the reason why the gtr is so damn fast on the track even for it weight. if anything, I think nissan awd system is superior to anything out there.
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      10-23-2009, 10:10 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Ferrari & Porsche I felt were fair examples, with Porsche even having the ability to offer such a vehicle in AWD and chooses not to. Based purely on the understanding, that the additional weight just cannot be overcome.

Yes, Downforce, and Wings (and tires) are very critical in making a RWD car perform... but that's exactly why they outperform AWD.

I just think it's old to say 'RWD' can't put down power... etc... etc... Have you noticed the Ring Times?
I'll leave out the motorsport argument on rwd vs awd because it's not allowed it compete is most forms of the sport along side rwd so we'll leave it at that.

Downforce is what keeps a rwd car glued at speed and allows for the power to be applied earlier than normal. Something that is common to any awd car.

The additional weight to a 997 awd from a 997 rwd is basically 40kgs. As most of this is actually sits over the front axle and helps shift some of the weight forward thus benefiting the balance of the car. Why they chose not to go the awd way with the GT2 is probably the same as with the GT3, awd is effectively banned from motorsport. It basically the reason why no manufacturers offer their closest track based models in awd form, not that it's better not because it would be obsolete.

Next you talk about ring times. Well lets look at that, the ZR1 and ACR are both more powerful and weigh a heck of a lot less than the GTR yet are only a couple or three seconds quicker over a seven minute twenty something lap. Given that both car destroy the Nissan on the straights what does that not say about the three cars in the corners.

The only advantage that rwd has over awd is steering feel and involvement in that the driver does everything to keep it on the track, I will continue to admit these facts and if that is how you prefer things then I respect that, but don't think for one minute that rwd is somehow better than awd. It may well be true when comparing an Audi which is compromised for packaging reasons but when the awd car is designed to take full advantage of things like is the case with the GTR and R8 then that argument that rwd is best is a very debatable one at best.
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      10-23-2009, 10:45 AM   #58
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What is being missed here is that the trick differentials pioneered in awd cars can - and will - increase traction for rwd cars - especially to get power down earlier coming out of corners and to reduce understeer under program control without using the brakes and losing power.
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      10-23-2009, 11:20 AM   #59
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What is being missed here is that the trick differentials pioneered in awd cars can - and will - increase traction for rwd cars - especially to get power down earlier coming out of corners and to reduce understeer under program control without using the brakes and losing power.
I believe BMW have tested it in their standard models, whether it will be introduced is debatable because LSDs has been up to now an exclusive item of M cars.

It is a very impressive bit of kit.
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      10-23-2009, 12:38 PM   #60
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If you can't afford a winter car (seeing as your in Chicago with snow!) and need it year round I would get the S4. Great all around car and now that it has a supercharger it will be fun and cheap to mod.

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      10-23-2009, 02:07 PM   #61
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Thanks Footie... again... AWD is a great all around daily driver.

RWD is a great drivers car.

That's just my personal preference, others can deflinitely prefer the latter.

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      10-23-2009, 02:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Thanks Footie... again... AWD is a great all around daily driver.

RWD is a great drivers car.

That's just my personal preference, others can deflinitely prefer the latter.

Dave
I couldn't agree more, in fact I've been saying this much for years. But this is primarily true for front engined awd systems, i.e. Quattro, Evos, Imperzas, etc. The only exception in my opinion is the GTR, it is still involving and this is down to it's transaxle and how it's awd works. The only other decent driver's awd cars have their engines further back.

But as you admit yourself the awd car makes the perfect DD and some of them also prove to be very accomplished handlers as well.
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      10-23-2009, 05:26 PM   #63
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This thread is so pointless. Ill put it simple, purpose built car for great handling and driver feadback, m3. Getting 600 hp out of any car will not be cheap anyways. Especially when things start to break. If you like awd just get the s4
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      10-25-2009, 04:04 AM   #64
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I've driven the B8 S4 and I liked it a lot but when compared to the M3 it just doesn't even feel like they should be compared in the same category. In your situation, It seems like you are a hardcore modder and the Supercharged 3.0tfsi engine may very well be a greater (cheaper to get power) platform for that. What would I take? Well, I'd get the M3 but I can be quite content with having 414 horses and like you said, you're not.
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      10-25-2009, 04:08 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Thanks Footie... again... AWD is a great all around daily driver.

RWD is a great drivers car.

That's just my personal preference, others can deflinitely prefer the latter.

Dave
+1.. I too believe the RWD platform is a setup that is a recipe for a great drivers car. Footie, I really don't think they will ever put AWD in the gt3/2 and I find it hard to believe they don't have it in the gt's because of the motorsport regulation. Also, where did you hear that the gtr is a involving car to drive?
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      10-25-2009, 04:40 AM   #66
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+1.. I too believe the RWD platform is a setup that is a recipe for a great drivers car. Footie, I really don't think they will ever put AWD in the gt3/2 and I find it hard to believe they don't have it in the gt's because of the motorsport regulation. Also, where did you hear that the gtr is a involving car to drive?
I prefer to discuss awd vs rwd instead of Audi vs BWM because I'm an awd fan and not a brand nut.

I will continue to agree with everyone that states rwd is the most involving, I have never denied that fact yet some here believe otherwise. The point is whether awd would give all of these fore mentioned cars an advantage in track time if they had awd instead of rwd, the answer is yes and no, it all depends on the track in question, the type of corners that are primarily there and the surface of the track, oh and ultimately the type of awd system being use and how the engine's position affect this setup. If the awd system can easy bring the tail into play on request then I would think an awd system would be a benefit over rwd but we know that not all awd system work that way and due to individual brand priorities some may prefer their setups to provide the safety net of understeer first.

I would argue that on the N-ring awd do indeed hold an advantage and this advantage would be carried over on to the road and the reason it would hold true for the road is that the N-ring is in fact a road, a closed road but a road none the less. Another reason for awd to benefit on the road is 'ideal line', you can't use the ideal line on the road, having to stick to your own side so the added traction will always be a benefit in such situations. My argument for Porsche and others not including awd on the road based track cars is a valid one. I bet that Nissan will develop a rwd version of the GTR if they want to enter GT4 or GT3 racing, they did it before. Regarding how involving the GTR is all depends on the individual, I personally class any car that can be controlled by the throttle in a corner as involving, you may not. Each to their own.
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