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      10-31-2009, 12:36 AM   #67
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When the M3 beats the CTSV around the ring or other often raced track we'll talk. Until then, i feel like there's nothing to talk about.
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      10-31-2009, 01:21 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
When the M3 beats the CTSV around the ring or other often raced track we'll talk. Until then, i feel like there's nothing to talk about.
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      10-31-2009, 12:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
Everyone knew Heinricy would be ready to go around the course if needed. Stop crying that you can't brag the M3 beat the CTS-V. Only thing you can brag is the M3 beat up on a 77 year old guy.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/19/c...ricy-to-stand/
"We should expect between five and ten participants in total, and just in case, John Heinricy, pro racer and former GM engineer, will be on hand to, "be used at the discretion of Mr. Lutz." Read: if you're a professional racer, you're going to be tangling with someone of similar caliber."

That's a clip from you link So once again its Michael C. who is the winner of this competition since he is a registered contestant/non-professional driver.

How many other drivers or teams got to bring in a pro driver to switch at a moments notice? Ohhhh wait pro drivers where not invited to this competition
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      10-31-2009, 01:42 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
This was about the car. You can't seriously expect GM to throw down a challenge like this to anyone who wants to run and not use their best drivers.

All this whining that GM had a faster driver is just BS. If any of the other manufacturers thought they had a shot at this, why didn't they send a factory hot shoe over there to show ol' Bob what's what?
You sort of answer your own question. This was GM, which doesn't have a great reputation in this segment, trying to prove that they deserve to be in the same sandbox - and they made their point.

What incentive is there for any other manufacturer to respond? Little or none. GM shows up with at least a trailer full of cars with multiple transmission options, and you know they had their techies - perhaps Heinricy's shop - go over them with a fine tooth comb to make sure they are up to spec. Not to mention their 'ringers in reserve.' A single private M3 with a trained but unknown driver beats all of the amateurs in whatever they drive. Sounds good from the BMW perspective to me.

Again, Caddy made their point - but I'd still like to see results with factory participation from BMW, and certainly Porsche.

So you keep whining if you must. . .

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      10-31-2009, 02:16 PM   #71
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Bottom line, a pro driver in a faster car-.

That's my entire point. Thank you.

There were people in this thread disputing that the CTS-V is faster around a track than the M3. That's what I've been taking issue with.
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      10-31-2009, 02:18 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklimis View Post
"We should expect between five and ten participants in total, and just in case, John Heinricy, pro racer and former GM engineer, will be on hand to, "be used at the discretion of Mr. Lutz." Read: if you're a professional racer, you're going to be tangling with someone of similar caliber."

That's a clip from you link So once again its Michael C. who is the winner of this competition since he is a registered contestant/non-professional driver.

How many other drivers or teams got to bring in a pro driver to switch at a moments notice? Ohhhh wait pro drivers where not invited to this competition

Are you going to totally ignore that there were 4 drivers in the CTS-V that were faster than the kid in the M3? Three of them aren't race car drivers.
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      10-31-2009, 02:55 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklimis View Post
"We should expect between five and ten participants in total, and just in case, John Heinricy, pro racer and former GM engineer, will be on hand to, "be used at the discretion of Mr. Lutz." Read: if you're a professional racer, you're going to be tangling with someone of similar caliber."

That's a clip from you link So once again its Michael C. who is the winner of this competition since he is a registered contestant/non-professional driver.

How many other drivers or teams got to bring in a pro driver to switch at a moments notice? Ohhhh wait pro drivers where not invited to this competition
That was the writers own words, not GM's.
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      10-31-2009, 05:02 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Are you going to totally ignore that there were 4 drivers in the CTS-V that were faster than the kid in the M3? Three of them aren't race car drivers.
Where are you getting this info? According to the blog itself: "Out of the actual contestants, the BMW M3 placed first." Bolded and enlarged so you can't miss it. The kid in the M3 beat out all of the other challengers, including those in CTS-V's. The only people to get around quicker were pro drivers, who were not a part of the competition. Get your facts straight, people.

Yes assuming there is a perfect pro driver in each car, the CTS-V is faster. But given that 99.99% of people are not pro drivers, that fact means pretty much nothing.

If anything, the fact that a 21 year old kid in an M3 won this competition suggests that the M3 is the easier car to drive fast, which means a lot more in the real world than lap times set by pro drivers.
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      10-31-2009, 06:00 PM   #75
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      10-31-2009, 07:46 PM   #76
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The other CTS-V drivers that were faster were development engineers, or who apparently did not take the wheel of the M3 to see if it was really slower/faster. Brian Redman is described as "grand marshal" of that track, and he co-designed it. He also has a professional racing career that isn't too shabby.

Another manufacturer would likely not seriously want to be part of a rival's promotional stunt. Even if the CTS-V lost to a BMW M or Mercedes AMG product, the difference would not be so huge as to relegate the car to POS status; it would legitimize the CTS-V as a serious player in this category.
The fact that Bill Auberlen was so close last year in an M5, a vehicle he hadn't driven in many years, at this same track against Heinricy who developed the CTS-V tells us a BMW engineer/racer should be just as fast or faster in an M3.
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      10-31-2009, 07:55 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyc74 View Post
Are you going to totally ignore that there were 4 drivers in the CTS-V that were faster than the kid in the M3? Three of them aren't race car drivers.
Three drivers, according to the results I read: John Heinricy - Head of GM's in-house High Performance vehicles shop, top corporate hot shoe and a professional race driver; Aaron Link - A Cadillac engineer, generally considered a good driver; and Brian Redman - former World Champion endurance champion and promoter of vintage sports car races. So as far as I see, your numbers are wrong, and perhaps one of them (or less) is not a professional race car driver. Who was the fourth?

So if we get the top ///M hot shoe, another BMW engineer, and, say Hans Stuck - who was competitively driving at about the same time as Brian Redman - and match them up with the CTS-V crowd above, it might be more definitive. Until then, the Caddy is in the same class, but no way superior. Period.

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      10-31-2009, 09:08 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolToolGuy View Post
Three drivers, according to the results I read: John Heinricy - Head of GM's in-house High Performance vehicles shop, top corporate hot shoe and a professional race driver; Aaron Link - A Cadillac engineer, generally considered a good driver; and Brian Redman - former World Champion endurance champion and promoter of vintage sports car races. So as far as I see, your numbers are wrong, and perhaps one of them (or less) is not a professional race car driver. Who was the fourth?

So if we get the top ///M hot shoe, another BMW engineer, and, say Hans Stuck - who was competitively driving at about the same time as Brian Redman - and match them up with the CTS-V crowd above, it might be more definitive. Until then, the Caddy is in the same class, but no way superior. Period.

Have Fun,
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Well said Sir
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      11-01-2009, 02:32 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maswastage View Post
Where are you getting this info? According to the blog itself: "Out of the actual contestants, the BMW M3 placed first." Bolded and enlarged so you can't miss it. The kid in the M3 beat out all of the other challengers, including those in CTS-V's. The only people to get around quicker were pro drivers, who were not a part of the competition. Get your facts straight, people.

Yes assuming there is a perfect pro driver in each car, the CTS-V is faster. But given that 99.99% of people are not pro drivers, that fact means pretty much nothing.

If anything, the fact that a 21 year old kid in an M3 won this competition suggests that the M3 is the easier car to drive fast, which means a lot more in the real world than lap times set by pro drivers.
bolded even bigger, so that the only important point can be made. because at the end of the day, that's the over-arching point...and nobody can disagree with that.
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      11-01-2009, 02:35 AM   #80
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A good promo for GM and a cheap way to get publicity. That was the purpose and it worked. Hey, maybe they'll eventually pay back their taxpayer funded bailout money.

Other than sheer marketing smarts, it was meaningless.

Lutz got just what he wanted out of the event--inexpensive and relevant marketing for his recently introduced 556-horsepower V8. "There's enormous attention being paid to this, and if you compare this cost-wise and effectiveness-wise to, say, making a bunch of TV commercials, this is a highly effective way to get the word out about how good the car is," Lutz said. "If we sell 50 or 100 of the CTS-V off this, we'd consider it a success."

http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/29/gm-...utos-lutz.html
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      11-01-2009, 12:29 PM   #81
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I just don't understand how any of you guys can actually think that this proves the M3 is faster than (or even as fast as) the CTS-V. If anything, it proves that this 21 y/o "kid" is a very good driver and far above the skill level of the other supposed contestants so its no surprise that he won. He could have probably won with a range of differing cars in this competition, not just an M3. My guess is that if you had put him in a CTS-V he would have been considerably faster because guess what: The CTS-V is a faster car. Duh.

I wonder why no car mag or publication has done an M3/CTS-V comparison? Oh yeah, because it wouldn't be a fair comparison and the BMW would be much slower....

Oh and here's some more numbers for ya:

CTS-V Nurburgring laptime - 7:59.32
M5 Nurburgring laptime - 8:13
M3 Nurburgring laptime - 8:15

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car..._ring-car_news
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      11-01-2009, 12:34 PM   #82
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Oh and btw, I'd still buy an M3 over a CTS-V!!!
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      11-01-2009, 02:51 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric View Post
I wonder why no car mag or publication has done an M3/CTS-V comparison? Oh yeah, because it wouldn't be a fair comparison and the BMW would be much slower....

Oh and here's some more numbers for ya:

CTS-V Nurburgring laptime - 7:59.32
M5 Nurburgring laptime - 8:13
M3 Nurburgring laptime - 8:15

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car..._ring-car_news
The M3 is not in the same size class as the CTS-V. Cadillac have been marketing the CTS as a 5-Series/A6/E-Class size competitor. As far as those lap times go, Sport Auto Magazine drove the M3 to an 8:05 on the Nurburgring. That was with Pilot Cup tires (optional in some markets), but was not a DCT-equipped car. The dual-clutch car should be faster.
So far, Sport Auto have been 12-20 seconds slower in production-spec GM cars compared to the factory claims. They will likely not match the 7:59 time that Heinricy set. For all we know, BMW could be setting their 'Ring times like Porsche, with traffic during industry days.

Other reasons why the M3 should be about as fast as the CTS-V:
Randy Pobst in the CTS-V @ Laguna Seca ('08 Motor Trend) - 1:43.9
Randy Pobst in the M3 w/DKG @ Laguna Seca ('07 Motor Trend) - 1:42.964
C&D editors @ Laguna Seca in the M3 w/DKG - 1:43.9

Take a look at Car Magazine's results at Rockingham.
Porsche Cayman S 1:37.07
Cadillac CTS-V 1:38.85
Audi S4 1:39.07

An M3 should be faster than a Cayman S. And faster than an S4 too, which competes with the 335i. The M3 has also been shown to be 3-5 seconds faster than the C63 in tests on both sides of the Atlantic, so for the M3 to be only 0.9s faster in the C&D Lightning Lap test highlights the problems they were having with the transmission.

Also note the M5 vs CTS-V test in Road & Track. John Heinricy, who helped developed the CTS-V, was only 0.47s faster than an M5 driven by Bill Auberlen, who had not even driven the car. It's safe to say that a BMW racer and test driver who helped develop the M5 would be faster than Auberlen, and an M3 should be faster still in similar hands.

Last edited by Guibo; 11-01-2009 at 03:34 PM.
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      11-01-2009, 09:16 PM   #84
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FYI, that cayman S time was done in the WET. the m3 should not be faster...the cayman S is a superior balanced car that is .4 faster on hockenheim with ps2s (m3 was done on cup+ tires) same with the ring time; cayman S was on ps2 and m3 on cup+ and the cayman S was 8:06.
Cup+ tire is not like a true MPSC. It has a different compound and slightly different tread pattern for better rain capability. Evo Mag found only a 0.3s difference between an E90 M3 sedan and an M3 coupe which had the Cup+ tires.
Do you have a link to the Cayman S lapping in 8:06?

Randy Pobst in the Cayman S @ Laguna Seca - 1:43.0
So maybe the M3 is merely as fast as the Cayman S.
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      11-01-2009, 09:43 PM   #85
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It's safe to say that a BMW racer and test driver who helped develop the M5 would be faster than Auberlen, and an M3 should be faster still in similar hands.
It's hard for me to believe that BMW wouldn't send out a test driver in a M3 or M5 if they thought they could beat the time.
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      11-02-2009, 12:55 PM   #86
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It's hard for me to believe that BMW wouldn't send out a test driver in a M3 or M5 if they thought they could beat the time.
An M3 or M5 driven by a BMW pro would not likely have beaten the CTS-V by a significant enough margin to show that the CTS-V is not a legitimate player in this class. The CTS-V is clearly close enough. A narrow win would only legitimize the CTS-V, and that's not likely something BMW would want to do.
Secondly, we don't know what their driver schedules are like. There could be a conflict in the schedules. That was a reason given as to why Jim Mero was chosen to drive the ZR1 for its fastest lap, and not a racer like Jan Magnussen (who is confident he can easily shave 7 seconds from Mero's time).

The fact that BMW could have chosen Stuck or any number of development drivers to drive the M5, yet chose Auberlen who had never even driven the car, tells us how seriously they took the R&T challenge. In other words, not too seriously. Or, Stuck's schedule wouldn't allow it.
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      11-02-2009, 03:47 PM   #87
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Yeah adding on to that, even if the M3 and M5 could beat the Caddy it still wouldn't be in BMW's interest to participate because doing so acknowledges that the much cheaper CTS-V is on the same level as BMW's own cars. Not something BMW wants to do.
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      11-05-2009, 12:53 PM   #88
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Here are the official results:
1. Cadillac CTS-V (John Heinricy): 2:46:560
2. Cadillac CTS-V (Brian Redman): 2:49:183
3. Cadillac CTS-V (Aaron Link): 2:48:902
4. BMW M3 (Michael Cooper): 2.50:424
5. Cadillac CTS-V (Jack Baruth): 2:51:153
6. Cadillac CTS-V (Lawrence Ulrich): 2:53:026
7. Cadillac CTS-V (Bob Lutz): 2:56:321
8. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X (Wes Siler): 3:08.126
9. BMW M5 (Michael Mainwald): 3:08:989
10. Cadillac CTS-V (Chris Fairman.): 3:14:292
11. Audi RS4 (Tom Loder): 3:15:702
12. Jaguar XF (Archan Basu): 3:16.670

So to all those that say it took a professional driver to beat a privateer: where was the factory support for BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar? GM put the challenge out to anyone that wanted to submit a stock vehicle and Mitsubishi was the only one to step-up.
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