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      11-02-2009, 07:11 PM   #1
Ramos
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No refueling in 2010... Good or bad?

What are your thoughts on how the ban on refueling will affect the show, the racing, the stretegy, on track passing ?

Other than the safety and the cost saving aspects, is it a good decision for F1?
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      11-02-2009, 07:17 PM   #2
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I feel it is a step backwards! In '93 refueling was introduced to improve the show. Now years latter they are banning refueling to improve the show! FIA has to get their act together.
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      11-02-2009, 07:26 PM   #3
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"Supposingly" we should see more overtaking "on-track". Since there are no "fuel corrected" pace, pit strategy won't affect the race result that much. Its down to the driver how well he can take care of the tires and fuel consumption adjustment.

Good part was, there should be less pit overtakes.
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      11-02-2009, 07:50 PM   #4
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You can still have pit overtake as not all the drivers will come in at the same time for new tires... Tire management will become essential next year.
if you manage your tires better then you can go a couple of laps longer than the guy behind... I think the problem is that it gives the pole sitter such an advantage to wait out the rest of the field before he goes in for fresh rubber as long as he can keep everyone behind
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      11-02-2009, 07:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
You can still have pit overtake as not all the drivers will come in at the same time for new tires... Tire management will become essential next year.
if you manage your tires better then you can go a couple of laps longer than the guy behind... I think the problem is that it gives the pole sitter such an advantage to wait out the rest of the field before he goes in for fresh rubber as long as he can keep everyone behind
Sorry...i meant fuel strategy overtakes by pitstops....not the efficiency of the pit crews...

i.e. the slight heavier car runs 5 laps longer might leap-frog the ligther car in pit strategy...which gain race position but we dun see it at all...

now without fuel corrected pace, we can see wheel-to-wheel or pitcrews vs pitcrews fighting for that 1/10th.....

we wun see the pitwall holding a stop watch calculating how much fuel added and etc.....

most i guess is one driver manages their tires better and can run 2-3 laps longer and do some quick laps before its tire rotation, thus gain about not as substansial as fuel corrected pace like we have now.....
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      11-02-2009, 09:29 PM   #6
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I would love for them to ban tire changes as well. That will show who has the fastest car without strategy coming into place.
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      11-03-2009, 01:01 PM   #7
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I would love for them to ban tire changes as well. That will show who has the fastest car without strategy coming into place.
Those 5 second pit stops are an integral part of the F1 show... Not going anywhere + I doubt any tire manufacturer can come up with a tire that can last an entire F1 Grand Prix distance unless it's super super hard compound...

Do not worry, there will be very little strategy next year.. just tire management
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      11-03-2009, 01:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
Those 5 second pit stops are an integral part of the F1 show... Not going anywhere + I doubt any tire manufacturer can come up with a tire that can last an entire F1 Grand Prix distance unless it's super super hard compound...

Do not worry, there will be very little strategy next year.. just tire management
Smooth drivers like Button might be benefit of this, but harsh driver like Hamilton might have a hard time to manage his tires with a relative heavy car....
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      11-03-2009, 02:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
"Supposingly" we should see more overtaking "on-track". Since there are no "fuel corrected" pace, pit strategy won't affect the race result that much. Its down to the driver how well he can take care of the tires and fuel consumption adjustment.

Good part was, there should be less pit overtakes.
But this is what I don't understand. Everyone keeps saying with no fuel stops there will be no fuel strategies. But I think actually there will be more.

There is absolutely NO chance these cars will be filled any more than the bare minimum needed to finish the distance at laptime "X". IF the driver has to drive harder he'll use more fuel and have to wind the pace back later.

IMO Fuel Strategy and Fuel Pace will have just as much if not more influence.
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      11-03-2009, 04:18 PM   #10
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But this is what I don't understand. Everyone keeps saying with no fuel stops there will be no fuel strategies. But I think actually there will be more.

There is absolutely NO chance these cars will be filled any more than the bare minimum needed to finish the distance at laptime "X". IF the driver has to drive harder he'll use more fuel and have to wind the pace back later.

IMO Fuel Strategy and Fuel Pace will have just as much if not more influence.
What you are talking are fuel consumption based on driver's pace.

Fuel strategy meant the amount of fuel loaded before Q3 qualify. And planned which lap to box based on the fuel remaining after qualify, then how much should be added for the second stint and final stint. Also guessing how much others will run based on the fuel added or posted vehicle weight after qualify, and adjust strategy accodingly. Hoping to leapfrog on pit stops instead of fighting wheel to wheel.
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      11-03-2009, 04:27 PM   #11
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I think no fueling is a good idea. Mileage becomes more important. Also...they banned tire changes a couple of years ago and it was too unsafe so they went back to tire changes. Doesn't mean they have to change tires but at least it's an option.
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      11-03-2009, 04:32 PM   #12
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I think most races will end up being one stoppers... The boogey time in the pit lane will not justify two stops since there is no weight advantage by starting the race lighter..

And driving aggresively will not change fuel consumption on these cars.. Do you really think that when they are "not driving aggresively" that they are just cruising around?

Even under safety car, these cars consumption only drops 30%, so under race conditions the driver cannot change fuel consumption one bit.. maybe just maybe get one extra lap, and the teams will not leave it up to the driver to save that one lap of fuel at the risk of running out two corners from the checker flag
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      11-03-2009, 05:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
I think most races will end up being one stoppers... The boogey time in the pit lane will not justify two stops since there is no weight advantage by starting the race lighter..

And driving aggresively will not change fuel consumption on these cars.. Do you really think that when they are "not driving aggresively" that they are just cruising around?

Even under safety car, these cars consumption only drops 30%, so under race conditions the driver cannot change fuel consumption one bit.. maybe just maybe get one extra lap, and the teams will not leave it up to the driver to save that one lap of fuel at the risk of running out two corners from the checker flag
Fuel consumption based upon the driver dial and change the fuel mapping...I believe they will race with sufficient fuel for recon lap, parade lap, race fuel, plus in-lap, then probably a bit more when the driver needs to dial the rev up a bit more for overtaking...then not a single drop more.

I think number of pit stops will be determined by friday practice and see how well the drivers can manage the tires. If they manage well, then will be just one stop and change to option in the final short stint.
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      11-03-2009, 08:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Smooth drivers like Button might be benefit of this, but harsh driver like Hamilton might have a hard time to manage his tires with a relative heavy car....
So will Alonso
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      11-03-2009, 09:05 PM   #15
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Im not sure how I feel about the refueling ban... It should be good for the show in the sense of no more fuel strategy pit stops hopefully causing a better show.

The flipside is that they will be going through almost a 400lb difference in fuel weight. Think of that.....the whole car/driver/fluid combo only weights 1200lbs....thats a huge % change in the car.

And if they got rid of tyre changes as well, you would have super hard compounds which allowed not much grip.

I will wait and see how it comes out. But I guarantee you the first big fiery crash that happens and they go right back to re-fuelling.
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      11-04-2009, 01:45 PM   #16
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Why don't they just say one refueling and one tire change allowed. That would put the cars on the track longer and there will still be strategy with the pits and make qualifying still interesting. I think that having the pit crews work on the cars adds to the show.
Speaking of qualifying how is that going to change with the no refueling? Q1 light fuel, Q2 light fuel, Q3 full of fuel? Q1, Q2, Q3 full of fuel?
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      11-04-2009, 04:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
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So will Alonso
Alonso is one of the most aggresive drivers out there, not smooth at all, probably worst than Hamilton... So no this will not benefit him one bit

Quote:
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Im not sure how I feel about the refueling ban... It should be good for the show in the sense of no more fuel strategy pit stops hopefully causing a better show.

The flipside is that they will be going through almost a 400lb difference in fuel weight. Think of that.....the whole car/driver/fluid combo only weights 1200lbs....thats a huge % change in the car.

And if they got rid of tyre changes as well, you would have super hard compounds which allowed not much grip.

I will wait and see how it comes out. But I guarantee you the first big fiery crash that happens and they go right back to re-fuelling.
400Lbs of fuel ???? Think it's more like an extra 150-200 Lbs at most, but still you are right that it changes the car completely

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Why don't they just say one refueling and one tire change allowed. That would put the cars on the track longer and there will still be strategy with the pits and make qualifying still interesting. I think that having the pit crews work on the cars adds to the show.
Speaking of qualifying how is that going to change with the no refueling? Q1 light fuel, Q2 light fuel, Q3 full of fuel? Q1, Q2, Q3 full of fuel?

All 3 stints will be on low fuel
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      11-04-2009, 10:17 PM   #18
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During the race they were discussing this. Steve matchet (take it for what its worth) said they would be adding an additional 150 kilos or so. Which yes I over calculated but its still over 300lbs of fuel.
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      11-05-2009, 01:38 AM   #19
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It's gonna give us some good racing, but I don't think it's going to be much different at the end of the day. You'll have guys flying around the track and wearing their tires out on two stop strategies. Then, you'll have the guys at the back that take it a bit slower to preserve their tires on one stoppers. Sound familiar?
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      11-05-2009, 01:53 AM   #20
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I see F1 has some serious issues in the near future. Honda left eons ago. BMW and Toyota have announced their withdrawal for next season, and there is rumor that Renault is contemplating to follow their exit.
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      11-05-2009, 02:27 AM   #21
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I see F1 has some serious issues in the near future. Honda left eons ago. BMW and Toyota have announced their withdrawal for next season, and there is rumor that Renault is contemplating to follow their exit.


But according to Ferrari, some of the people in the FIA don't want big manufacturers in F1.
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      11-05-2009, 08:18 PM   #22
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Nothing like a change in the rules to save money and lead to more R&D on chassis development and aero packages to deal with the heavy fuel loads to fumes...how much did KERS cost this last year? Oh, that's right, it's gone already. At least Q will have to be reworked to have fastest man on pole...I hope....
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