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      11-18-2009, 07:16 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by SoCalM3Mang View Post
Assuming I understand anything you and JM803 are talking about the natural question:

Why isn't the tuning community/aftermarket folks making HFC's 400cpi or better?

Is it possible to make them at this level and still make them "High Flow"?

Thanks.
Magnaflow makes them and they suck. For me, they have lasted about a year
I've had decent luck in the past with random technology cats on my previous custom exhausts.
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      11-18-2009, 08:35 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalM3Mang View Post
Assuming I understand anything you and JM803 are talking about the natural question:

Why isn't the tuning community/aftermarket folks making HFC's 400cpi or better?

Is it possible to make them at this level and still make them "High Flow"?

Thanks.
I suppose you could have a 400cpi cat that flows better than the OEM one. If you look at the size and shape of the OEM cat it's very restrictive. I guess if someone made a bigger (one with more volume) round one even though it would still be 400cpi the exhaust gasses would be less restricted passing through since they wouldn't be getting compressed against themselves.

If that makes sense....
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      11-19-2009, 12:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post

2) It won't make any difference whether or not you have a second set of cats or not. Your chances of getting a CEL due to increased emissions is still the same.

All of these aftermarket x-pipes are a crap shoot. You just have to live with the occasional fault code...or just keep your stock setup.

The primary OE catalytic converters on the E90/92/93 M3's are made with a Ceramic Brick core (substrate) material that has 400 cells per square inch.

Most of the aftermarket catalytic converters on the market use a Metal Matrix (spiral wound wire mesh) core material. This type of catalytic converter is LESS effective at filtering out exhaust gas impurities. In addition to this, most aftermarket x-pipe manufacturers use 100 cpi or 200 cpi hi-flow cats that have a higher CFM (cubic feet of air per minute)rating than our stock 400 cpi cats.

That increased cfm rating is the root cause of this particular problem...

The "Increased Emissions" codes that are triggered as a result of an x-pipe swap (P0420 Bank 1 & P0430 Bank 2), are triggered because the velocity of the exhaust gas flow (passing through the these aftermarket catalytic converters) has increased substantially over the performance of the OE cats.

The 100 cpi and 200 cpi aftermarket cats cannot remove enough C0 from the exhaust gas stream, before it exits out the other side. (where the post-cat 02 sensors are located)

The post cat 02 sensors are detecting this catalyst ineffeciency...and it throws the two fault codes listed above.
So even when removing the secondary cats there is a chance you will throw a code?
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      11-19-2009, 12:49 PM   #92
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So even when removing the secondary cats there is a chance you will throw a code?
No, it will not. The O2 sensors are before and after the main cats. The second cat is not part of what is monitored. Hence why they say the second cats are not OBDII compliant.
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      11-19-2009, 12:52 PM   #93
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Quote:
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So even when removing the secondary cats there is a chance you will throw a code?
Removing the cats entirely will guarantee that it will code. (eventually)

Some tuners will sell you a software file that kills the annoying CEL light. (if it really starts to bother you)

Unless you can find (or build) a super effective post-cat 02 simulation device...the car will continue to throw fault codes.

You either have to turn it off (via software), or just live with the occasional CEL that pops up.

A few of the aftermarket x-pipes out there, will code less frequently than others...but there is no foolproof way of stopping it from occurring 100% of the time. (that I'm aware of)

Not YET anyway.
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      11-19-2009, 12:54 PM   #94
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Aright, that helps, thanks!
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      11-19-2009, 01:44 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Removing the cats entirely will guarantee that it will code. (eventually)

Some tuners will sell you a software file that kills the annoying CEL light. (if it really starts to bother you)

Unless you can find (or build) a super effective post-cat 02 simulation device...the car will continue to throw fault codes.

You either have to turn it off (via software), or just live with the occasional CEL that pops up.

A few of the aftermarket x-pipes out there, will code less frequently than others...but there is no foolproof way of stopping it from occurring 100% of the time. (that I'm aware of)

Not YET anyway.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it will only code when you remove the primary cats. Removing the second set of cats has no consequences.
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      11-19-2009, 01:49 PM   #96
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Correct me if I am wrong, but it will only code when you remove the primary cats. Removing the second set of cats has no consequences.
I believe you are correct. The sensors are only right before and after the primary cats, so removing the secondaries should have no ill effects.
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      11-19-2009, 02:12 PM   #97
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Ok, well that makes me feel better at least : )

FYI to those following the thread, I PMed Julius @ WSTO since that is who I bought the Fabspeed through to see what he/Fabspeed would like to do. I'll keep the forum posted...

Unfortunately, I think I may have a leak at one of the welds on the "X" also. I need to get back under the car and check, but when I installed my rear slip-on, I noticed water dripping from the X and exhaust stains as well : (
I just wanted to update everyone on my situation. I spoke to Julius@WSTO and Jeremy@fabspeed is out until Monday, so he won't be able to speak to him until then. That timeframe is fine with me, and Julius is obviously committed to making his customers happy. I'm glad I bought from them! : )

In the meantime, I'm going to pick up some software so I can monitor the car and post any new data points on the forum.

With regard to the exhaust leak I may, or may not, have - I need to get under the car and see what I can learn. It's possible that it's leaking upstream at the header connection or the slip-fit from the HFCs to the Xpipe, and just accumulating/dripping at the X. Small leaks are kind of normal with aftermarket exhausts in all honesty, I just want to make sure it isn't a leak in a weld or a crack of some sort. Either way, it is likely unrelated to the SES light.

I'll keep people posted.
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      11-19-2009, 03:25 PM   #98
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I just wanted to update everyone on my situation. I spoke to Julius@WSTO and Jeremy@fabspeed is out until Monday, so he won't be able to speak to him until then. That timeframe is fine with me, and Julius is obviously committed to making his customers happy. I'm glad I bought from them! : )

In the meantime, I'm going to pick up some software so I can monitor the car and post any new data points on the forum.

With regard to the exhaust leak I may, or may not, have - I need to get under the car and see what I can learn. It's possible that it's leaking upstream at the header connection or the slip-fit from the HFCs to the Xpipe, and just accumulating/dripping at the X. Small leaks are kind of normal with aftermarket exhausts in all honesty, I just want to make sure it isn't a leak in a weld or a crack of some sort. Either way, it is likely unrelated to the SES light.

I'll keep people posted.
Where is the best place to buy a Code Reader/Clearer for our cars?

How easy is it to plug and play with these devices for a novice?

Will BMW Service Tech's know we are reading and clearing our own Codes using our own Code Reader? if they know will they care? Any risks from DIY?

Thanks.
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      11-19-2009, 04:03 PM   #99
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Not sure I agree with you unless data is provided. In fact, the target emissions and stochiometric ratios of the stock car may not be optimal for power but more of a compromise for emissions. In addition, and I have verified this with my own eyes, the A/F ratios get thrown out of whack a bit when you either remove completely or replace the primaries with HFC cats. We monitored the ratios on the dyno. We then tuned the car. Then shut of CEL and did more dynos. Max power was with the CEL OFF. There is more power to be gained with the HFC cats and no CEL than the stock cats and leaving the cats in ready mode.

Just clarifying.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
They are running a little worse...they just don't realize it.

The post cat 02 sensors are simply used to fine tune the AFR's, not directly control them. That job is reserved for the pre-cat 02 sensors.

Here is where confusion comes in...

Many BMW owners think the post-cat 02 sensors don't play a role at all, because once they are turned off...they can't tell the difference with their "butt dyno".

A word to the wise...

Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable. lol...

When you tell them the post-cat sensors actually do play a role in the ECU tuning they can believe it because if it did...they would FEEL the difference in power.

Well here's why they don't...

The pre-cat 02 sensor data controls about 99% of the overall ECU tuning functionality.

The post-cat 02 sensors control approx. 1% of the ECU tuning functionality.

That's WHY the majority of the guys who shut off the post-cat 02 sensors think they don't have any effect.

1% of 414hp is...4.1 hp.

4.1 flywheel hp = approx. 3 rwhp
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      11-19-2009, 04:27 PM   #100
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In addition, and I have verified this with my own eyes, the A/F ratios get thrown out of whack a bit when you either remove completely or replace the primaries with HFC cats.
Do you have any data here? Wondering which HFC solution you are talking about and what the AFR chart actually looked like.


Quote:
We monitored the ratios on the dyno. We then tuned the car. Then shut of CEL and did more dynos. Max power was with the CEL OFF.
When you say you shut the CEL off, did you just clear it or stop monitoring the rear O2s? What was the power difference if I may ask?

Thanks!
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      11-19-2009, 04:38 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalM3Mang View Post
Where is the best place to buy a Code Reader/Clearer for our cars?

How easy is it to plug and play with these devices for a novice?

Will BMW Service Tech's know we are reading and clearing our own Codes using our own Code Reader? if they know will they care? Any risks from DIY?

Thanks.
I just bought this for my iphone:

http://www.jlevistreetwerks.com/p698...duct_info.html

...you'll also need the iphone app for $40.

Very easy to plug and play.

I don't believe techs can tell if you cleared codes. There may be some period of time which must elapse, after clearing the code, before the car is ready for inspection. I'm not sure, perhaps someone else can chime in. I know this was a reality on several ECUs in the mid-2000s.
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      11-20-2009, 08:52 AM   #102
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^--can you clear codes with that thing?
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      11-20-2009, 09:09 AM   #103
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My local Costco has a OBDII reader that can scan and clear codes. I think it was 34 bucks or so...
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      11-20-2009, 11:17 AM   #104
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Hi Singletrack,

I'll have to scan my dyno printout. I have the Fabspeed HFC setup and Eisenmann Sport exhaust. I had the Fabspeed tune, but due to CEL issues and my DCT update wiping it, I had Jeremy at Powerchip tune the car on the dyno during their recent NJ visit. I felt that me being able to flash myself in the event of an inspection event was worth it. Powerchip has the mobile flash kit they send out.

The car picked up about 19 HP and 22 ft/lb after the flash. We gained only about 2 hp over the baseline Powerchip file that was already designed for cars with my exact type mods.


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Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Do you have any data here? Wondering which HFC solution you are talking about and what the AFR chart actually looked like.




When you say you shut the CEL off, did you just clear it or stop monitoring the rear O2s? What was the power difference if I may ask?

Thanks!
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      11-20-2009, 11:56 AM   #105
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I had the "increased emission" occur twice and took it into the dealer, first time they said it was nothing and reset the computer but came back after a week or so. Took it back to the dealer found out that I had bad coil on the #3 and replaced it, no issues now.
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      11-20-2009, 02:38 PM   #106
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I had the "increased emission" occur twice and took it into the dealer, first time they said it was nothing and reset the computer but came back after a week or so. Took it back to the dealer found out that I had bad coil on the #3 and replaced it, no issues now.
Unfortunately, "increased emissions" is a catch all : ( You really need the actual codes from the ECU (might be on the work order). Thanks for the data point though!
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      11-20-2009, 02:40 PM   #107
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^--can you clear codes with that thing?
Yes. I have the software and it seems pretty decent in playing around with it. I have yet to receive the hardware. I'll post a review once I have everything. There are certainly cheaper AND more robust solutions out there. I just wanted something I could keep in the glove box and fire up in seconds.
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      11-23-2009, 11:26 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
I just bought this for my iphone:

http://www.jlevistreetwerks.com/p698...duct_info.html

...you'll also need the iphone app for $40.

Very easy to plug and play.

I don't believe techs can tell if you cleared codes. There may be some period of time which must elapse, after clearing the code, before the car is ready for inspection. I'm not sure, perhaps someone else can chime in. I know this was a reality on several ECUs in the mid-2000s.
So I got this thing and fired it up. It;s pretty slick, although the software from DevToaster (Rev) is fairly unstable. It seems to crash a lot when I am logging. The transmitter from PLX is very small and works well so far.

Anyway, with regard to this issue, I checked and there are no codes in there right now. I do show that the "Oxygen sensor monitoring" is showing a status of "supported and incomplete" under OBD readiness.

I did some searching and found the following:

http://www.europeantransmissions.com...0Procedure.pdf

All the other tests supported by the ECU under "OBD monitoring" are complete. So, based on that bulletin, it appears I need to drive at a constant 20-30mph for 3mins, 15 seconds, without exceeding 3k RPMs to complete the 02 readiness monitoring. Heh - not sure when that will happen. Whether or not you will pass inspection with a monitor, or multiple monitors, set to incomplete varies from state to state, and even county to county.

That link also describes the logic by which you may have a code, but no SES light. I thought that might be of help to some.

I have 200miles on the car since clearing the codes; I'll keep monitoring. Actually, right now I'm logging long and short term fuel trim to see how the ECU is handling the exhaust : )

Robo - did you try out those spacers/adapters yet?
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      11-24-2009, 07:13 AM   #109
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keep us posted
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      11-24-2009, 08:38 AM   #110
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an update...the car threw the code again on friday. i got the bung extenders that jeremy sent, but i have yet to install them. hopefully they fix he problem
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