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      04-17-2014, 02:19 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
This is not an "academic" concern. It is fundamental to observation of data and conclusions about such - so I don't really agree. With a simultaneous oil brand/weight switch and mileage interval switch one can't separate which caused the change.

Now, given the specifics of your hypothetical case, which is totally different from that to which I originally replied to, I do agree seeing those changes one could make a reasonable conclusion that the oil was making a difference.
Here you go, I'm just going to repost this. IMHO, this is very telling. 10W60 were run in 2 different intervals (6500 and 5500 miles), but both had 9 ppm of lead which shows consistency. Switched to M1 for 5000 miles (for comparison sake, I think that's close enough to 5500 10W60 run) run yet lead dropped down to 3PPM.

And I can say for sure the last run was during middle of the summer where we get 100+ degree weather in SC and the car was driven very hard. Even harder than when I ran the 10W60 because we went on at least 5-6 mountain runs which the temps can see upwards of 230F.

Take it for what it's worth, but this was pretty compelling to me.



P.S. I don't hoon my car unless it's up to operating temp, so the 9PPM lead was going to be there regardless of what I do.
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      04-17-2014, 02:49 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
This is not an "academic" concern. It is fundamental to observation of data and conclusions about such - so I don't really agree. With a simultaneous oil brand/weight switch and mileage interval switch one can't separate which caused the change.

Now, given the specifics of your hypothetical case, which is totally different from that to which I originally replied to, I do agree seeing those changes one could make a reasonable conclusion that the oil was making a difference.
Got ya. Maybe I misunderstood your original comment. My hypothetical case is they type of situation that popped into my head.
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      04-17-2014, 02:56 PM   #267
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W/// ,Your oil analysis report is looking very good !
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      04-17-2014, 03:55 PM   #268
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Except for the near doubling of the iron content.
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      04-17-2014, 04:37 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Except for the near doubling of the iron content.
Agreed but like he said "The car is driven "very" hard !
So it's normal to see more metal and this with any kind of oil,when it was a garage queen than there was 0 metal !
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      04-17-2014, 07:43 PM   #270
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My M3 is an 08.
I just bought the car 3 weeks ago at 40k miles. The last recorded oil change was at 26,444 according to car fax. I put 500 miles on it and I have good reason to believe that the oil is TWS due to it was last changed at Pembrooke BMW in Florida but I really don't know how many miles on the oil.

It looks like I have to keep an eye on the lead level. The car is running on Mobile 1 0W40 now.


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      04-17-2014, 10:39 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Except for the near doubling of the iron content.
Universal average is 8ppm, mine was 9ppm. Not even the least concerned about that.
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      04-18-2014, 06:26 AM   #272
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Your iron was 5 and went up to 9 on shorter mileage.
Its hardly a fair and balanced argument for a change in oil weight if you only present the benefits and ignore the downsides.
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      04-18-2014, 11:42 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Here you go, I'm just going to repost this. IMHO, this is very telling. 10W60 were run in 2 different intervals (6500 and 5500 miles), but both had 9 ppm of lead which shows consistency. Switched to M1 for 5000 miles (for comparison sake, I think that's close enough to 5500 10W60 run) run yet lead dropped down to 3PPM.
That is encouraging information for sure. However, I was responding to this sequence, which should have been obvious since I quoted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marksae View Post
Just got my oil report today! I just switched to Mobil1 0W40, so hopefully my lead content will go down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
I fully expect it will. Keep the interval on the shorter side and see what happens. Good luck!
He just changed oil and you advised shorter intervals. That obviously would confound conclusions. Yes, again, one may be able to separate variables or use some linear estimates based on mileage ratios but those move one away from certainty. It seems like obviously good advise to leave interval constant and remove a variable, no (of course as long as oil is holding up well at such interval)?

That aside, THIS, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Your iron was 5 and went up to 9 on shorter mileage.
Its hardly a fair and balanced argument for a change in oil weight if you only present the benefits and ignore the downsides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Universal average is 8ppm, mine was 9ppm. Not even the least concerned about that.
Which isn't the best way to observe CHANGES...
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      04-18-2014, 03:40 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Your iron was 5 and went up to 9 on shorter mileage.
Its hardly a fair and balanced argument for a change in oil weight if you only present the benefits and ignore the downsides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
That is encouraging information for sure. However, I was responding to this sequence, which should have been obvious since I quoted it.



He just changed oil and you advised shorter intervals. That obviously would confound conclusions. Yes, again, one may be able to separate variables or use some linear estimates based on mileage ratios but those move one away from certainty. It seems like obviously good advise to leave interval constant and remove a variable, no (of course as long as oil is holding up well at such interval)?

That aside, THIS, as well.





Which isn't the best way to observe CHANGES...
I'm not sure why we are bringing up iron here? If you scroll through the last 3-4 pages of this thread, every report has shown iron levels between 5 and 12PPM (regardless of oil). Mine went from 5, which is on the lower scale, to 9, which is right around where it should be. I even mentioned that the car was driven much harder this time around.

Let's make one thing clear here. I have 0 interest in convincing people to use one oil or the next, that's your choice. In that regard, I'd love to hear how I'm only showing the good but not the bad (whatever that might be), because that's certainly not my goal. I'm trying to honestly be 100% transparent with everyone.
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      04-18-2014, 04:47 PM   #275
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W///, that's what I got out of your UOA report as well, drastic decrease in lead, mild decrease in copper, and you increased your iron wear to the avg. level because you beat up the motor. But SFP being an advocate against lighter oil will surely come in and rain on your parade, and surely he did.

I say keep using M1 0W40, and knowing that the oil is doing its job.
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      04-18-2014, 06:18 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardo629 View Post
W///, that's what I got out of your UOA report as well, drastic decrease in lead, mild decrease in copper, and you increased your iron wear to the avg. level because you beat up the motor. But SFP being an advocate against lighter oil will surely come in and rain on your parade, and surely he did.

I say keep using M1 0W40, and knowing that the oil is doing its job.
Oh, I fully plan to. I'm actually really curious to see what the next UOA looks like, got about 2500 miles more to go.

If the last report came back with something like 20PPM iron, then I'd clearly point that out. Heck if you read their summary, they even mention word for word what we are talking about "hey we noticed increase in iron. Did you drive car hard? don't worry though, still about average. Nice report"
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      04-19-2014, 05:49 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardo629 View Post
But SFP being an advocate against lighter oil
Actually I'm an advocate against a small vocal minority promoting a change of oil type away from the OEM recommendation with absolutely no long term data that shows any advantage....and I'm especially against glossing over UOAs that show a rise in iron - if you can't drive hard with Mobil 1 0W40 on board without a rise in iron then that IS a reason to be concerned.
The topic is rapidly become like the tight bearing clearance fiasco - where the idea (M1 0W40 is better) becomes fact solely by constant repetition.
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      04-19-2014, 10:00 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Actually I'm an advocate against a small vocal minority promoting a change of oil type away from the OEM recommendation with absolutely no long term data that shows any advantage....and I'm especially against glossing over UOAs that show a rise in iron - if you can't drive hard with Mobil 1 0W40 on board without a rise in iron then that IS a reason to be concerned.
The topic is rapidly become like the tight bearing clearance fiasco - where the idea (M1 0W40 is better) becomes fact solely by constant repetition.
SFP,
Would you concede that the lead and copper readings have gone down with the 0W40 compared to the 10W60? I don't know about what you consider long term but the reports have shown less wear on the rod bearings with the 0W40. There is no denying that. As for iron, there has been high traces with the 10W60 as well. I think you like to take in what you want and ignore the actual test results.
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      04-19-2014, 12:49 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Actually I'm an advocate against a small vocal minority promoting a change of oil type away from the OEM recommendation with absolutely no long term data that shows any advantage....and I'm especially against glossing over UOAs that show a rise in iron - if you can't drive hard with Mobil 1 0W40 on board without a rise in iron then that IS a reason to be concerned.
The topic is rapidly become like the tight bearing clearance fiasco - where the idea (M1 0W40 is better) becomes fact solely by constant repetition.
The only fiasco here is that you are not listening. My iron went up but it is right at universal average. Again, let me put this in bold for you just so you can't possibly miss it: WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

You are against UOA's showing rise in iron? There are so many engines on your beloved TWS with higher iron than mine! Just quickly scroll through the thread and you'll see iron levels in the double digits, which mine isn't

The last report showed exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Oil was used hard (in hot weather), yet lead dropped, and everything was right where it should be or better.
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      04-19-2014, 01:10 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea7 View Post
SFP,
Would you concede that the lead and copper readings have gone down with the 0W40 compared to the 10W60? I don't know about what you consider long term but the reports have shown less wear on the rod bearings with the 0W40. There is no denying that. As for iron, there has been high traces with the 10W60 as well. I think you like to take in what you want and ignore the actual test results.
SFP likes to troll and blindly defend anything BMW says. Don't waste time with him. Here is my oil analysis. Also notice the higher iron despite using TWS
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      04-19-2014, 03:20 PM   #281
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W///& Petros,

That's exactly what i'm talking about ! it's in front of his face plain as day!
As W/// put it ......"WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?"
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      04-20-2014, 05:36 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W/// View Post
The only fiasco here is that you are not listening. My iron went up but it is right at universal average. [/b]
I swear it would be easier to teach calculus to a cat.
Universal averages don't enter into it. Other cars and their UOAs don't enter into it.
Its about trends in your engine. You changed your oil type and lead went down but your iron and aluminium went up.
And yes I know the Aluminium and Iron are still within the UAs but then so was the lead with TWS.
Jeez its not rocket science.
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      04-20-2014, 07:05 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Actually I'm an advocate against a small vocal minority promoting a change of oil type away from the OEM recommendation with absolutely no long term data that shows any advantage...
So you're content with the known trend of increasing lead, copper, and iron levels in high mileage cars that use tws?
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      04-20-2014, 08:08 AM   #284
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So you're content with the known trend of increasing lead, copper, and iron levels in high mileage cars that use tws?
For myself I'm not bothered, I'll have a BMW extended warranty for as long as I keep my car, if the engine let go that would be fine with me, I'll get a new one.
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      04-20-2014, 08:28 AM   #285
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Isn't there already a thread or two (or three or ten) devoted to the merits of TWS vs. M1? Maybe you guys can keep this very useful oil analysis thread focused on oil reports and analysis instead of rehashing old debates?

P.S. I'm using TWS and had high aluminum and iron levels (7 and 12 respectively) on my report. Lead was low though. Still not sure if this is something to be concerned with.
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      04-20-2014, 09:56 AM   #286
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Fair point.
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