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      10-09-2009, 08:39 PM   #89
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There's only one thing I have learned in this thread. Don't move to Singapore.
If you knew how much he paid for his M3 over there this statement would be even more true... Here's a used E90 for sale over there.
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      10-09-2009, 09:11 PM   #90
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How can an over rev happen with the fuel cut off kicking in? I thought the only way to over rev our engines was to say, shift from 6th gear to 2nd at like 100km causing a mechanical over rev situation. Can't we bang off the rev limiter all day long without damaging the engine when the original stock ecu tuning is still present?

I realize that in this case the car has a DTC transmission and the ecu should not allow the 6th to 2nd gear shift to protect the engine and transmission.
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      10-09-2009, 09:37 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i2007 View Post
How can an over rev happen with the fuel cut off kicking in? I thought the only way to over rev our engines was to say, shift from 6th gear to 2nd at like 100km causing a mechanical over rev situation. Can't we bang off the rev limiter all day long without damaging the engine when the original stock ecu tuning is still present?

I realize that in this case the car has a DTC transmission and the ecu should not allow the 6th to 2nd gear shift to protect the engine and transmission.
Some tunes raise the rev limiter to 8600 including dinans.
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      10-09-2009, 09:54 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335i2007 View Post
How can an over rev happen with the fuel cut off kicking in? I thought the only way to over rev our engines was to say, shift from 6th gear to 2nd at like 100km causing a mechanical over rev situation. Can't we bang off the rev limiter all day long without damaging the engine when the original stock ecu tuning is still present?

I realize that in this case the car has a DTC transmission and the ecu should not allow the 6th to 2nd gear shift to protect the engine and transmission.
I had a rod bearing go in mine when I went to shift from 2nd to 3rd gear and did not get it into gear, went back to throttle momentarily before realizing I was in neutral. The instant I realized I was not in gear I cut the throttle. Going hard to throttle spun the flywheel up, and although there is a fuel cutoff at ~8300 rpm the inertia of the flywheel must have carried the engine to ~8700 RPM. Afterwards I heard an ominous sound clanging in the engine, so I brought it to BMW. When the told me it had been overrevved I argued that I could not have overrevved it since I did not get it into a gear, and the only thing I can think of is the above expanation. BMW specialists determined it was a rod bearing and gave me a brand new engine under warranty,but not before threatening not to cover it due to the overrev.
I am quite surprised such a thing could screw this engine. It has a shorter stroke, and thus less piston speed, than the 3.2L in the E46 M3 that revs nearly as fast.

Final comment: Given the relatively modest gains that a tune provides, I do not think it is worth tuning this engine. BMW told me it would have cost me $25K for a new engine!
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      10-10-2009, 05:19 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Going hard to throttle spun the flywheel up, and although there is a fuel cutoff at ~8300 rpm the inertia of the flywheel must have carried the engine to ~8700 RPM.
I don't think it works like that...the moment you cut the fuel the engine stops accelerating.
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      10-10-2009, 05:33 AM   #94
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Once you hit 8400rpm the fuel cuts. When I'm trying to go fast I shift at 8300 because when I shift at 8400 I hit the fuel cutoff and my car bogs.
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      10-10-2009, 07:55 AM   #95
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Is it me or those with serious engine problems tends to be 08 models? I kinda notice the freqency is very high with 08 cars. ????
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      10-10-2009, 03:13 PM   #96
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My08 cut off fuel and turned off. I was in first and didn't shift to second. I hit the clutch and stalled with only 1000 miles on the od... 15k miles later no problem. But the funny thing is my car is a 12.4 quarter mile car. I guess I broke it in good. With a pulley and filter. At the strip 12.4 to 12.7. Tune is nice but not worth the problems that it may cause!!!!
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      10-10-2009, 03:17 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmariachi View Post
Is it me or those with serious engine problems tends to be 08 models? I kinda notice the freqency is very high with 08 cars. ????
I have no clue. But, if it were true, you can't draw statistically meaningful conclusions without controlling for age, and mileage. Statistically speaking, 08s would tend to be higher-mileage vehicles than 09s.

To my knowledge, there is no evidence that the S65 is different between model years. Thus, a year from now, if there is a problem, one would expect to see it in equal proportions in the 09s.
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      10-10-2009, 04:15 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I don't think it works like that...the moment you cut the fuel the engine stops accelerating.
Yes, I don't see how the engine can continue to accelerate in the absence of torque.

angular acceleration = T/I

I (moment of inertia) of the drivetrain, including the flywheel, simply affects the magnitute of the acceleration when there is net positive torque. If there is no combustion, there is no net positive (produced - drivetrain friction - external load) torque, and no angular acceleration of drivetrain components. For an engine rotating in neutral, there is no external load, but there is drivetrain friction, so the net torque is negative the moment fuel is cut off, and whatever rotating mass is connected to the crankshaft will decelerate.
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      10-10-2009, 05:38 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Going hard to throttle spun the flywheel up, and although there is a fuel cutoff at ~8300 rpm the inertia of the flywheel must have carried the engine to ~8700 RPM.
Something's fishy with that story. Did you buy the car new? Never a tune? Engine does not spin above 8,450 rpm from the factory, period. Besides, rev limit in neutral and with clutch pedal depressed should be 7K rpm. By the way, it's entirely possible you had a bad engine; the 'fishy' part is it having spun to 8,700 rpm without a tune or mechanical overrev.

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Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
I am quite surprised such a thing could screw this engine.
Are you surprised 8,700 rpm screwed your engine??? I'm not.

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Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
Final comment: Given the relatively modest gains that a tune provides, I do not think it is worth tuning this engine. BMW told me it would have cost me $25K for a new engine!
I do agree with that. Take care.
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      10-10-2009, 07:09 PM   #100
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You guys need one of these to clear codes... if they made one for our engines.

http://www.n54tuning.com/index.php?_...d&productId=22
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      10-11-2009, 03:00 PM   #101
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very sorry to hear this

that is why i have always used Dinan's software on my last 2 M's and on this one
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      10-11-2009, 05:10 PM   #102
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The moral of the story is don't alter your freaking car is you expect BMW to cover it if it breaks. It makes perfect sense to me. If you feel the burning desire to modify a proven and safe design from the factory, be prepared to pay in the event of a catastrophic failure.
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      10-11-2009, 06:49 PM   #103
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nope not confused. after 3 modded M cars i know what was covered and what wasn't while i watched others just have issues.

now you say dinan may have covered it, well they never gave me a hard time and i wouldn't of known the difference so that is good warranty to me.

people love to slam dinan but after 3 dinan cars and no issues with warranty, but hey i been wrong before

i won't agrue on the matter bc it is pointless people can believe what they want

thanks

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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I think you're assuming that Dinan modifications are still covered by BMW factory warranty -- which is unambiguously not the case.

So, let's say you are confronted with the same situation as the OP. You bend a valve, the dealer says you have a modified ECU -- in this case a Dinan ECU -- so they refuse to cover the repairs under a factory warranty. The dealer ends up voiding your engine warranty because you have a modified ECU. Do you really think Dinan is going to replace your bent valves and pick up your full engine warranty -- just because you bought their ECU upgrade?

I do not believe this to be the case.


Dinan warranty vs. dealer coverage has been discussed ad-nauseum. If there is any confusion about this, I suggest looking up one of those threads.
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      10-11-2009, 09:33 PM   #104
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Why would thay give a warranty?(Dinan) Bmw would say because of the tune and the over rev. Dinan would have to warranty it. I asume?
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      10-11-2009, 10:28 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Bomb View Post
people love to slam dinan but after 3 dinan cars and no issues with warranty
Have you ever needed a new, $25K engine??? NOBODY would cover it buddy, be it Dinan, AA, or whoever else. They'd blame the engine (which is no longer covered by BMW), leaving the burden of proof on you. Good luck with that.

You'd be wise to assume you'd have no warranty from Dinan or anybody else if you decide to tune your car, because that's probably the reality. Yeah, it's a very small chance of something catastrophic happening, but the odds are there.
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      10-11-2009, 10:28 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I think you're assuming that Dinan modifications are still covered by BMW factory warranty -- which is unambiguously not the case.

So, let's say you are confronted with the same situation as the OP. You bend a valve, the dealer says you have a modified ECU -- in this case a Dinan ECU -- so they refuse to cover the repairs under a factory warranty. The dealer ends up voiding your engine warranty because you have a modified ECU. Do you really think Dinan is going to replace your bent valves and pick up your full engine warranty -- just because you bought their ECU upgrade?

I do not believe this to be the case.


Dinan warranty vs. dealer coverage has been discussed ad-nauseum. If there is any confusion about this, I suggest looking up one of those threads.
Dinan has their OWN warranty that coincides with BMW's warranty or for 2 years on the part itself if the BMW warranty has expired. So yes if you have a Dinan tune and it is proven to be the cause of the bent valve due to raised rev limiter or whatever then Dinan is on the hook. BUT it has to be proven first and this would have to happen anyway for BMW to legally deny your warranty on the engine in the first place. The catch is that to hire a lawyer and fight this battle is often not worth the effort. Therefore, even with Dinan, you should assume that if problems arise, without a huge effort, you are going to have to pay out of pocket for repairs. At least with Dinan you have some chance of support where with other vendors you have less of a chance IMO.
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      10-11-2009, 10:40 PM   #107
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Dinan can't even send me a $150 rebate check they owe me since May. I find it hard to believe they would fork over thousands for an engine rebuild because of a bent valve. The chances are nobody would own such a problem since it is probably technically almost impossible to prove what caused what exactly based on a single failure. If the majority of Dinan tunes ended up with bent valves, it might be a different story, but then, they'd probably simply go bankrupt!
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      10-11-2009, 11:29 PM   #108
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I really dont think ur tune did this, but BMW can void ur warranty for messing or "tamperring" with ur DME. In fact thats prob. one of the only areas where u could never win a case with them because thats the key module in this vehicle. Its literally connected in some way to every module and sensor on this vehicle. So they can blame any other problem they want to on ur tune from now on.

Good luck with ur fix...Off topic but I remember a few S54s had this problem as well back when they were somewhat new. Except most of those cases were from over reving which can b easily seen by BMW.
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      10-12-2009, 12:09 AM   #109
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I was told by my BMW SA that when they run a diagnosis on the car, all information is sent back to a central system in BMW Germany automatically for analysis and storage.

So avoid getting any diagnosis run on the car if you want to hide the fact you have an aftermarket tune.

I was also told by an Independent BMW Workshop mechanic that the ECU track if the software has been flashed or not - upon discussion of this with an aftermarket tuner, they informed me that only a major software upgrade is tracked and reprogramming a few tables in the DME is not tracked. Also out of interest your major software revision can only be upgraded 13 times, however an ECU reflash can happen as many times as possible.

Finally the M3 engine management systems have cryptographically signed data that uses the RSA public/private key technologies similar to what is used with SSL certificates on the Internet - however the aftermarket tuners have found some way to trick this system.
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      10-12-2009, 12:36 AM   #110
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no offense but no i never needed a new engine. my Dinan cars never gave me any trouble like other modded cars give. i had 80,000 miles on my Dinan S2 M5 and 65,000 miles on my Dinan S2 M3.

Quote:
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Have you ever needed a new, $25K engine??? NOBODY would cover it buddy, be it Dinan, AA, or whoever else. They'd blame the engine (which is no longer covered by BMW), leaving the burden of proof on you. Good luck with that.

You'd be wise to assume you'd have no warranty from Dinan or anybody else if you decide to tune your car, because that's probably the reality. Yeah, it's a very small chance of something catastrophic happening, but the odds are there.
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