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      10-07-2009, 12:59 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by foosh View Post
I couldn't agree more.

However, as the person to whom the "offensive" jab was directed, I don't mind when that happens on an internet forum. I actually find it helpful in sorting out the quality individuals from whom I can learn, as opposed to those who aren't deserving of credibility. When a person takes such a ludicrous jab, I just write them off permanently, without taking any offense. Many others do the same, and their wounds are self-inflicted.
Maybe so but if no one is picked up everything this type of shit happens then it becomes considered as OK and things steadily take a downward turn for the gutter.

Frankly I prefer intelligent discussion without any of this behaviour.
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      10-07-2009, 01:34 PM   #46
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Guys, thanks for pointing out that it's not OK to offend each other. It's pretty cool that foosh didn't feel offended, but this doesn't make fpblue's comment more appropriate. Hence as a general reminder, Swamp's 'friendly advice' is dead on. Further offences or attacks won't be tolerated and are subject to warnings or infractions.

Now we can happily get back to topic. Thanks!


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      10-07-2009, 01:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
I would go m3 all day cause it is better in everyway. the only thing the s4 has is if someone want AWD. But then, there are ton of other better option for AWD and winter. X6M.

i even pick the x6 35i or 50i over the s4 in a heart beat. Since you are talking about winter, the x6 has more ground clearance, safer, bigger, more storeage, ton of power, etc.

or even the infiniti fx35 or fx50 over the s4.

IMO those SUV look more exciting than the S4 and more practical for winter.
Did you just compare a 60k S4 with a 100k X6M?

You really come across as a massive fanboy choosing a couple of SUVs over a sports sedan.

Last edited by jaiman; 10-07-2009 at 03:15 PM.
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      10-07-2009, 04:10 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Did you just compare a 60k S4 with a 100k X6M?

You really come across as a massive fanboy choosing a couple of SUVs over a sports sedan.
i did mention in my post x6 35i and 50i. I was giving him x6m as a baller option. imo I would choose the x6 35i over the s4 anyday. It would do better in deep snow over the s4 too. So my opinion is not fanboy, but truth. Did I mention I would pick an infiniti SUV over it. You can clearly see I'm going with sense more than being any fanboy of audi or bmw.

the s4 is not a sport sedan and it doens't look exciting. so sorry, but I have to choose an SUV over it if I want one for winter. there is no point whatsoever to choose an s4 due to awd because there are so many other awd that can do the same.

60k for an S4 is a huge rib off btw.

I saw you defended footie in other thread, so I guess you like audi more. That's why you ignored the part where I mentioned x6 35i and 50i and called me a fanboy. x6 35i is 55k MSRP which is about the same price as the s4
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      10-07-2009, 05:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by graider View Post
i did mention in my post x6 35i and 50i. I was giving him x6m as a baller option. imo I would choose the x6 35i over the s4 anyday. It would do better in deep snow over the s4 too. So my opinion is not fanboy, but truth. Did I mention I would pick an infiniti SUV over it. You can clearly see I'm going with sense more than being any fanboy of audi or bmw.
Listen, these comments of fanboy is both negative and has no bearing on any discussion here. The OP asked a question about the S4 and all he's getting from quite a few people is misleading info on different models that really have nothing remotely in common with either an S4 or an M3. If you genuinely believe that an X6 35i is anything remotely similar to either of those two cars then I'm amazed, I'm driven the brother's X6 (you've probably seen it in photos of my M3) and I can tell you that it's nothing like the S4 and definitely not the M3. It bounces from bump to bump and on anything other than a smooth surface it takes a handful of brave pills to barrel down a road at speed. If my brother posted on here he would second that opinion, in fact he can't wait until 16 months when he's lease is up and return to a Cayenne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
the s4 is not a sport sedan and it doens't look exciting. so sorry, but I have to choose an SUV over it if I want one for winter. there is no point whatsoever to choose an s4 due to awd because there are so many other awd that can do the same.

60k for an S4 is a huge rib off btw.
It is a sports saloon, find me many reviews where it's against the 335i and doesn't come out on top. So if that's your opinion then you must think even less of the 335i. I suggest you drive and I mean really drive an S4 equipped with the sportsdiff and don't come away a little impressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
I saw you defended footie in other thread, so I guess you like audi more. That's why you ignored the part where I mentioned x6 35i and 50i and called me a fanboy. x6 35i is 55k MSRP which is about the same price as the s4
So are we basically saying that anyone who remotely agrees with some of the things I write means they are somehow a fanboy for Audi. Does this include everything or only my comments regarding Audi?

Seriously, give me a break. I'll listen when you've contribution as much as I have.
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      10-07-2009, 06:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
No you should take some very friendly advice from a long term memeber here. It is quite simply your statement was either totally non-offensive, or it was offensive. My remarks indicate the latter. The offense is up to the person reading not the person writting.


Well I found his condescending laughter at my post very offensive and rude. He was basically saying that my comments were not thought out and idiotic. It is one thing to disagree with what I write, but quite another to say "Illogical" and mockingly laugh at me as though he is omniscient and I am ignorant. Is it ok to mock another poster? If you guys are going to be the political correctness police, at least enforce it equally.
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      10-07-2009, 07:59 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpblue View Post
Well I found his condescending laughter at my post very offensive and rude. He was basically saying that my comments were not thought out and idiotic. It is one thing to disagree with what I write, but quite another to say "Illogical" and mockingly laugh at me as though he is omniscient and I am ignorant. Is it ok to mock another poster? If you guys are going to be the political correctness police, at least enforce it equally.
I concur. He's the one with the attitude problem.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with how this thread evolved to somehow make fp the bad guy.
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      10-07-2009, 09:26 PM   #52
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As the OP, I am very sorry to see all the vitriol my comments and question have caused. Sorry to have gotten so many so stirred up. Never Mind.
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      10-07-2009, 09:33 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadC4s View Post
As the OP, I am very sorry to see all the vitriol my comments and question have caused. Sorry to have gotten so many so stirred up. Never Mind.
You did nothing wrong, bro. I just wanted to let you know that with my vast winter driving experience that the M3 with snows is pretty good. Not as good as a AWD with snows, but every bit as good as an AWD with all seasons. I was amazed at how easily I got around with the M3. Clearance is the only problem and that will be a problem with the S4 as well.

The guy just decided to be rude and I decided to respond in like. No big deal.
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      10-07-2009, 09:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpblue View Post
Do you have your period?
As I previously said, I was neither offended, nor worked up. The only thing that caused the moderator intervention here was the childish sentence above. As far as I'm concerned, everything else was just spirited, but civil discussion and normal difference of opinion. That sentence did offend others, who I don't even know, and they expressed that.

I plead guilty to using an "LOL," in response to one post, but it wasn't an "MLOL" It's over. Peace out!
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      10-07-2009, 09:42 PM   #55
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And my period sentence was not childish, but said in sarcastic jest. It was hardly an attack meant to offend Foosh or the NOW (National Organization of Women). People need to lighten up a bit (not Foosh).

A few times I've been asked if I was on my period and I just laugh. Some scientists actually believe that men do get a monthly "period". It's not biologically the same, but mental. Men get extra cranky at certain times of the month. Who knows?
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      10-07-2009, 09:47 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpblue View Post
The reason most people with AWD cars don't get winter tires is for the same reason that people in SUVs speed through snowstorms and ice as though they are invincible. Reason: most people are fcking stupid.


.....so true....

Cheers,
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      10-07-2009, 09:59 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpblue View Post
And my period sentence was not childish, but said in sarcastic jest. It was hardly an attack meant to offend Foosh or the NOW (National Organization of Women). People need to lighten up a bit (not Foosh).

A few times I've been asked if I was on my period and I just laugh. Some scientists actually believe that men do get a monthly "period". It's not biologically the same, but mental. Men get extra cranky at certain times of the month. Who knows?
Fpblue, I'm sending out a handshake and peace offering with this note. I neither meant any offense, nor did I mean to "mock" you. Perhaps you can appreciate that I "argue" for a living, and I've made a good living doing it. I thoroughly enjoy exploring all sides of a logic question, and that is what I was doing last night with you and others.

Now, I have to ask you and the previous poster a couple of questions. Don't snow tires give some people the same false sense of security as AWD? Isn't the problem with extra traction in slippery conditions the fact that some people push it too far? Some would say that the safest people are those on lousy tires in the snow just creeping along.

When I lived in Minnesota 15 years ago, I drove an E36 M3 on snow tires, except when it got too deep. We had a saying in Minnesota that the only difference between AWD/4WD and 2WD in such conditions was that the former went off-road at 65, while the latter went off-road at 35.
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      10-07-2009, 10:08 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foosh View Post
Fpblue, I'm sending out a handshake and peace offering with this note. I neither meant any offense, nor did I mean to "mock" you. Perhaps you can appreciate that I "argue" for a living, and I've made a good living doing it. I thoroughly enjoy exploring all sides of a logic question, and that is what I was doing last night with you and others.

Now, I have to ask you and the previous poster a couple of questions. Don't snow tires give some people the same false sense of security as AWD? Isn't the problem with extra traction in slippery conditions the fact that some people push it too far? Some would say that the safest people are those on lousy tires in the snow just creeping along.

When I lived in Minnesota 15 years ago, I drove an E36 M3 on snow tires, except when it got too deep. We had a saying in Minnesota that the only difference between AWD/4WD and 2WD in such conditions was that the former went off-road at 65, while the latter went off-road at 35.
I accept your handshake and apologize for helping create this brouhaha.

Yes, I agree that winter tires do give people a false sense of security just like AWD and SUVs. Nothing can beat the laws of physics. That said, if you are looking to get around in the snow with the M3, it can be done with a good set of winter tires. As long as you don't drive like a nut and think you are invincible. The combination of the tires and the DSC really make this car decent in the snow. If you are really really concerned about the snow, then I would get an AWD car and invest in winter tires, as you will have the best defense against the elements.
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      10-07-2009, 11:10 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Listen, these comments of fanboy is both negative and has no bearing on any discussion here. The OP asked a question about the S4 and all he's getting from quite a few people is misleading info on different models that really have nothing remotely in common with either an S4 or an M3. If you genuinely believe that an X6 35i is anything remotely similar to either of those two cars then I'm amazed, I'm driven the brother's X6 (you've probably seen it in photos of my M3) and I can tell you that it's nothing like the S4 and definitely not the M3. It bounces from bump to bump and on anything other than a smooth surface it takes a handful of brave pills to barrel down a road at speed. If my brother posted on here he would second that opinion, in fact he can't wait until 16 months when he's lease is up and return to a Cayenne.



It is a sports saloon, find me many reviews where it's against the 335i and doesn't come out on top. So if that's your opinion then you must think even less of the 335i. I suggest you drive and I mean really drive an S4 equipped with the sportsdiff and don't come away a little impressed.



So are we basically saying that anyone who remotely agrees with some of the things I write means they are somehow a fanboy for Audi. Does this include everything or only my comments regarding Audi?

Seriously, give me a break. I'll listen when you've contribution as much as I have.
read my post again, i never called anyone fanboy. but someone called me a fanboy. lol

i already respond to op question. m3, but for deep snow...x6

what exactly have you contributed other than bashing bmw and calling everything audi golden.

the 335i is ok. s4 is ok. but I would pick the x6 over them both. m3 over them all.
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      10-08-2009, 06:48 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
read my post again, i never called anyone fanboy. but someone called me a fanboy. lol

i already respond to op question. m3, but for deep snow...x6

what exactly have you contributed other than bashing bmw and calling everything audi golden.

the 335i is ok. s4 is ok. but I would pick the x6 over them both. m3 over them all.
Sorry if I mistook your post, I thought it was directed at me.

P.S.
Check more of my posts and you will see that while I do discuss Audi products I stick up for BMW and the M3 more than most, like here and here as two examples, the only difference is I criticize when needed and tell it as I see it instead of singing praises all of the time.
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      10-08-2009, 08:28 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadC4s View Post
As the OP, I am very sorry to see all the vitriol my comments and question have caused. Sorry to have gotten so many so stirred up. Never Mind.
Bottom line (since you never clarified from your OP):

If you want AWD get the S4 since Audi's AWD blows away BMW's. Audi build performance AWD cars, BMW builds "utility" AWD cars and performance RWD cars. (This is a generalization - no flames please).

Since you are sersiously considering the S4, if you decide you don't need RWD, I would also consider the 335i in addition to the M3. You've already said that you are trying to be money conscious here, which is why I think the 335i is worth a look - and you can get the MSport package for some uniqueness as well. Don't get caught up to much in the debates about the capabilities of M3/S4/335i. Just go drive them and see for yourself.

If you are looking at the M3 coupe, I would skip the S4 altogether for sure and instead look at the S5 (I think you still get the V8 there, whice is a bonus in my book, although fuel economy will be much more M3-like than the S4 or S5 cab).
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      10-08-2009, 08:29 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fpblue View Post
I accept your handshake and apologize for helping create this brouhaha.

Yes, I agree that winter tires do give people a false sense of security just like AWD and SUVs...
OK, now that everyone's kissed and made up, we can get back to content.

AWD and snow tires are at opposite poles in terms of "false sense of security".

The difference is that snow tires give consistent traction no matter what you're doing. Launching, cornering, braking - it's all the same, so to speak.

On the other hand, AWD allows for brisk launches, giving the driver a sense of heightened traction where none exists. Therefore the driver's expectation leads him or her to drive more quickly than they otherwise would, and since there is essentially no difference in cornering between AWD and 2WD, and obviously all cars have four wheel braking, so no benefit to AWD there, disaster awaits.

Guess how I know this?

After a couple of close calls in our first AWD (an '87 Audi 100S), dim thoughts began to penetrate my thick skull, and I backed off. The fact that I didn't have an accident was sheer luck.

Bruce
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      10-08-2009, 09:10 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graider View Post
i did mention in my post x6 35i and 50i. I was giving him x6m as a baller option. imo I would choose the x6 35i over the s4 anyday. It would do better in deep snow over the s4 too. So my opinion is not fanboy, but truth. Did I mention I would pick an infiniti SUV over it. You can clearly see I'm going with sense more than being any fanboy of audi or bmw.

the s4 is not a sport sedan and it doens't look exciting. so sorry, but I have to choose an SUV over it if I want one for winter. there is no point whatsoever to choose an s4 due to awd because there are so many other awd that can do the same.

60k for an S4 is a huge rib off btw.

I saw you defended footie in other thread, so I guess you like audi more. That's why you ignored the part where I mentioned x6 35i and 50i and called me a fanboy. x6 35i is 55k MSRP which is about the same price as the s4

I called you a fan boy because you would prefer an SUV to a sports sedan as long as the SUV is made by BMW (and I've seen enough of your posts to know you'd never consider the FX).

And no, I don't prefer BMW to Audi. I like cars, not car makers. I'd like to think this forum is a place for can enthusiasts who happen to own a BMW (or are looking to buy one), but it seem to be becoming a BMW enthusiasts site only. Footie, Bruce, Swamp and many others are actually car enthusiasts.
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      10-08-2009, 09:32 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
OK, now that everyone's kissed and made up, we can get back to content.

AWD and snow tires are at opposite poles in terms of "false sense of security".

The difference is that snow tires give consistent traction no matter what you're doing. Launching, cornering, braking - it's all the same, so to speak.

On the other hand, AWD allows for brisk launches, giving the driver a sense of heightened traction where none exists. Therefore the driver's expectation leads him or her to drive more quickly than they otherwise would, and since there is essentially no difference in cornering between AWD and 2WD, and obviously all cars have four wheel braking, so no benefit to AWD there, disaster awaits.

Guess how I know this?

After a couple of close calls in our first AWD (an '87 Audi 100S), dim thoughts began to penetrate my thick skull, and I backed off. The fact that I didn't have an accident was sheer luck.

Bruce
Bruce,

If I may I will pick you up on a couple of points regarding AWD (regardless of brand). Yes it provides brisk takeoffs that are possible in 2WD cars front or rear and does make people think that the conditions aren't as bad as they genuinely are, but on cornering the two do differ, rwd will ultimately continue the tail round and fwd will continue understeering if the throttle isn't controlled but AWD will first shift power to the rear and then control between the axles in a four wheel drift, the arch will increase if the power is increased.

Here's a video showing a drift and the power being shifted during drifting.



I'm solely using this video (sorry it's an Audi) because it shows the power shifting best.

The other advantage the AWD car has over either form of 2WD car and the major one when conditions are slippy like snow is braking, and before anyone says that ain't right let me finish, AWD cars has all four contact patches during engine braking where as 2WD only have two. Engine braking is very important in snow and seldom used by AWD drivers. If not used correctly then like you said there is no difference during normal braking between all of them and disaster awaits ahead.

One thing that everyone purchasing any form of AWD car should do is an AWD advanced driving course, you would be amazed as to how much control is on offer compared to 2WD but only when those skills learned are put into practice.
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      10-08-2009, 09:45 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
I called you a fan boy because you would prefer an SUV to a sports sedan as long as the SUV is made by BMW (and I've seen enough of your posts to know you'd never consider the FX).

And no, I don't prefer BMW to Audi. I like cars, not car makers. I'd like to think this forum is a place for can enthusiasts who happen to own a BMW (or are looking to buy one), but it seem to be becoming a BMW enthusiasts site only. Footie, Bruce, Swamp and many others are actually car enthusiasts.
so anyone who pick an SUV over the S4 is a bmw fanboy.
or just because one doesn't like your S4, then they are a fanboy. wow.

did I ever said I picked the x6 over the s4 from a performance perspective? LOL

let's just forget about which one is sport or not or which has better performance. I think the x6 is more exciting to look at than the s4 and for the money, I feel is is more car than the s4, so i will pick it. I'm sure many people buy a car based on look as it is the most important part of the purchase decision (otherwise, we would all be driving some rav4 or crv right now). now you probably hate the x6, but I like it. does that make me a fanboy? how?

like I said it before and I'm gonna say it again. the op mentioned he wanted a car that does good in snow. so I suggested him the x6. awd, turbo, higher ground clearance, more storage. the x6 is no slouch. go test drive one and you may end up with one cause it handle very well for an SUV. plus it looks handsome/unique. unlike the generic S4.

but if he really want a saloon, then m3 over the s4 any days. they are not on the same performance level IMO.

you must be kidding. check all my post and you can see i even suggest infiniti ex35, fx35, etc to other members. I'm really dig infiniti design. I honestly would take the fx35/fx50 over the s4 any days.

fx and x6 are best looking SUV in my book. merc g55 amg are sick, and cayenne is not too bad especially the turbo is aggresive looking. I'm not attracted to any other SUV.

oh and I think the ford edge is not bad looking for the price.

do you really think if someone doens't like audi like how you wanted them to think of audi, then they are not car enthusiast? somehow your argument doesn't make too much sense.
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      10-08-2009, 10:09 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Sorry if I mistook your post, I thought it was directed at me.

P.S.
Check more of my posts and you will see that while I do discuss Audi products I stick up for BMW and the M3 more than most, like here and here as two examples, the only difference is I criticize when needed and tell it as I see it instead of singing praises all of the time.
it's all good.
i'm not hating on audi. I think the forum should be a place for one to express their critique be it audi or whatever.

Like in the entire bmw line up, I like the m3, z4m coupe, and x6. the rest are decent, but I would buy those three before consider them.
for audi, I think all their car are decent and the s5, rs4, r8 are very good. but I think they are a bit over priced for what they do. take the s4 and the m3 for example. for pretty much the same price, I would buy the m3 over it because it is more car to me both from look and performance perspective.

the r8 v8 is 150k in canada, you can have gt3 for that money and still have some left to play. from a performance stand point, that make no sense whatsoever and the 997.2 gt3 look more exciting compare to the r8. throw in 20k and you get yourself one sick vehicle... the 997.2 gt3 rs.

some may think the r8 is the best looking vehicle produced in recent years as I have read some posts awhile back. but to me it is just due to the hype of new car. let's wait a few years and see if that is true.
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