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      10-06-2009, 05:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by a burrito View Post
Footie I can see what you are saying about the S4 and its effectiveness to get it up to power but you can't be serious in comparing even a MTM B9 S4 to a stock M3. There just really is not comparison. The M3 has a hell of a chassis and the S4 can't even compare to the fun factor in a AWD Subi or a Evo ("fun factor" is subjective of course). I do see that the S4 is fast OFTB and like I said before there is torque EVERYWHERE in that car but it just doesn't make up for how much it really can't turn.
I can't agree that the S4 can't turn, I can tell you from experience that it turns exceedingly well. It's lap times even in stock form is comparative to stuff with much less weight and more power, the S4's only requirement is more power which is what this kit from MTM gives.

I not saying it's ever going to replace an RS4 or M3 for that matter but as an alternative without costing the earth it gets mighty close and gives those who prefer a sleeper and option previously only available with the 335i.

As for fun, well as you said that is subjective but I will concede the S4 can't be as entertaining to throw about as either an Impreza or EVO, but then again Audi as a company are far too grown up for such things.
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      10-06-2009, 05:22 AM   #24
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M&M,

Reading what you said I must conclude that you the driver is the biggest difference here. When you owned the 335i all M3 were easy pickings, up to 6~7 car lengths by all accounts but now that you own an M3 it's the opposite being truth, this has to be all or mostly down to your skill as a driver.
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      10-06-2009, 05:37 AM   #25
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M&M,
Here's a V2 335i vs M3 6 speed. To me at least this seems to perform similarly to the MTM S4, is that how you see it?

[u2b]kZJd_Ewq5cg&feature=related[/u2b]

What sort of figures HP and Torque does this package give?
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      10-06-2009, 07:01 AM   #26
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Sorry that your delusional bud. I like how you say its cheaper to mod the S4. doesn't that MTM ECU tune cost like $3,500? I got my tune , rear section and pulley for that much. My car was making around 490-500hp crank and that was more then enough to squash any Audi I've encounted except Monster B5's with more then 450whp/wtq On race fuel and meth injection or upgraded turbos.
I think MTM is more comparable to Dinan on terms of pricing. I have a feeling that other tuners (APR,GIAC) will be making a better aftermarket ECU for half that price. Also we all know how a company can charge premium prices for aftermarket parts especially if they're the only option for that specific mod. The price will eventually come down just like how like it does in the past with FI'd cars.

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Originally Posted by Jonmartin
So sorry if I dont see a threat not even for the 335 much less the M3 no matter what you post.
Seriously? I can understand the M3 since they're totally different but a stock S4 is pretty much the same thing as a stock 335i in terms of performance. If there are tuned 335i's beating stock M3's in the straight then I have no reason to believe that a tuned S4 will do the same which it did (140mph+ doesn't count).

I'm curious as to why it seems like you're getting so defensive? No one said the S4 is comparable to the M3 overall. The M3 wins in everything stock for stock. The only time where a S4 might out shine a stock m3 or even a lightly modded M3 is in the 1/4 and that's all I see happening. But seriously, who gets an M3 to run it in the 1/4?
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      10-06-2009, 07:41 AM   #27
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Sorry that your delusional bud. I like how you say its cheaper to mod the S4. doesn't that MTM ECU tune cost like $3,500? I got my tune , rear section and pulley for that much. My car was making around 490-500hp crank and that was more then enough to squash any Audi I've encounted except Monster B5's with more then 450whp/wtq On race fuel and meth injection or upgraded turbos. So sorry if I dont see a threat not even for the 335 much less the M3 no matter what you post.

BTW I'm not chasing you, You're just the only one spreading nonsense as fact all over the board so I have to respond.
Your saying with a pulley, tune, and a new diff (maybe your meant exhaust) you were putting up 490 to 500hp? There is NO WAY your putting up those numbers sorry. There is a guy on the MBworld board with a M-DCT M3 (who has produced many racing videos) with a tune, Rogue pulley, and X Pipe and the best he did on a dynojet was 370-373whp.
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      10-06-2009, 08:25 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
Your saying with a pulley, tune, and a new diff (maybe your meant exhaust) you were putting up 490 to 500hp? There is NO WAY your putting up those numbers sorry. There is a guy on the MBworld board with a M-DCT M3 (who has produced many racing videos) with a tune, Rogue pulley, and X Pipe and the best he did on a dynojet was 370-373whp.
And yet he runs dead even with a tuned C63. Even though he has such "puny" power?
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      10-06-2009, 08:29 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
Your saying with a pulley, tune, and a new diff (maybe your meant exhaust) you were putting up 490 to 500hp? There is NO WAY your putting up those numbers sorry. There is a guy on the MBworld board with a M-DCT M3 (who has produced many racing videos) with a tune, Rogue pulley, and X Pipe and the best he did on a dynojet was 370-373whp.
I though that much but because I am unfamiliar with BMW tuning or what results they are achieving I didn't pipe up. Everyone knows my opinion about dynos so any results I read that haven't come from an engine dyno I take with a pinch of salt.
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      10-06-2009, 08:57 AM   #30
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And yet he runs dead even with a tuned C63. Even though he has such "puny" power?
What does the above comment have anything to do with my initial post? If you watch the video, the Powechip tune C63 does take that M3 in one of the runs. With that being said everyone in their right mine knows the superiority of the DCT trans over the 7G. However there is a difference between a car with a tune, compared to a car with a tune, pulley, AND exhaust work.
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      10-06-2009, 11:28 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
What does the above comment have anything to do with my initial post? If you watch the video, the Powechip tune C63 does take that M3 in one of the runs. With that being said everyone in their right mine knows the superiority of the DCT trans over the 7G. However there is a difference between a car with a tune, compared to a car with a tune, pulley, AND exhaust work.
That's my point. It doesn't need to make headline numbers on the rollers, it puts the power down very effectively with a powerband tailored for racing & hence can stomp with the big dogs making the power.
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      10-06-2009, 12:13 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
Your saying with a pulley, tune, and a new diff (maybe your meant exhaust) you were putting up 490 to 500hp? There is NO WAY your putting up those numbers sorry. There is a guy on the MBworld board with a M-DCT M3 (who has produced many racing videos) with a tune, Rogue pulley, and X Pipe and the best he did on a dynojet was 370-373whp.
Ya I'm not asking bud I'm telling. I know Drew I also know that C63 he ran before and after the Powerchip tune I was there when he was getting his tune. I made about 385whp and that C63 after the tune made 402whp(340 stock) on the exact same machine so uh thats very easily 490-500hp crank.
Also how many legitimate 500hp cars has Drew beaten you've seen all his vids right? Well me and Drew are very close it practically comes down to how well I can shift when running him.
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      10-06-2009, 12:14 PM   #33
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That's my point. It doesn't need to make headline numbers on the rollers, it puts the power down very effectively with a powerband tailored for racing & hence can stomp with the big dogs making the power.
The transmission is by far the difference maker. The ability to change gears with essentially no loss in power to the wheels is key. Still, how come then the only scenario where a M3 DCT Coupe (Forget a 6MT) wins Vs a C63 is when it is more modified? Compare it to an E90 or 6MT and the result will be even more noticeable. Both in stock form and equally modified the M3 loses. Both cars have their elements C63 (highway) M3(circuit track) however when each crosses over they will always finish in 2nd place respectively.
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      10-06-2009, 12:28 PM   #34
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Ya I'm not asking bud I'm telling. I know Drew I also know that C63 he ran before and after the Powerchip tune I was there when he was getting his tune. I made about 385whp and that C63 after the tune made 402whp(340 stock) on the exact same machine so uh thats very easily 490-500hp crank.
Also how many legitimate 500hp cars has Drew beaten you've seen all his vids right? Well me and Drew are very close it practically comes down to how well I can shift when running him.
Thanks but I'm not your bud and this isn't the Dunkin Donuts parking lot on a Saturday night. Your numbers are inconsistent with the norm. Stock C63's on a dynojet yield anywhere I seen from 370whp (Average) to as high as 385whp. What type of dyno was this? 340whp on a dynojet is WEAK and if I was the owner I be making a service appointment. Powerchip tune C63's on 91 octane all average 420+whp. Kleemann K1 tunes are slightly more conservative numbers. Also 490-500hp at the crank huh? You dyno 385 at the wheels and you have a 6MT? 22-21% drive train lost huh?
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      10-06-2009, 12:28 PM   #35
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I found that the M3 needs to revved to the limiter & the gear changes must be sharp enough that the car does not fall out of powerband for the following gear. The driver must ensure that he stays above 6000rpm following every shift or else he will fall into a slight "hole" out of powerband & will labour to get back in the band. That will have a knock on effect through that gear & the following gears making a significant difference to performance. It could end up making a 4-5 car difference on a long run.

That rolling start 2nd gear is smack bang into the Achilles heel of an M3. It will be on the back foot from the get go & lose significant momentum from which it can never recover. The M3 has zero torque rolling in 2nd gear at that rpm.

If that were me, I would have gone into 1st even if I were buzzing the engine. One has to get up into the powerband to extract any kind of performance from an M3.

Rolling in 2nd gear at 50mph with a forced induction car like the S4 is just plain dumb. I'm actually surprised the M3 even caught up at the end with such a sabotaged setup. That just proves that a stock M3 is significantly faster thana modded S4 to make up such a deficit at the start.
This doesn't make sense. In the 6MT, you can't start in 1st gear on a 50 mph roll. Redline in first happens at 41 mph. At 50 mph, you'd have to start in 2nd, which would put you right at 6,000 rpm, which is where you claim the M3's sweet spot is. How is this so bad for the M3?

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M&M,
Here's a V2 335i vs M3 6 speed. To me at least this seems to perform similarly to the MTM S4, is that how you see it?

[u2b]kZJd_Ewq5cg&feature=related[/u2b]

What sort of figures HP and Torque does this package give?
If you listen to the V2 335 in that video, it clearly has an aftermarket exhaust, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had other mods as well.
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      10-06-2009, 12:32 PM   #36
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Ya I'm not asking bud I'm telling. I know Drew I also know that C63 he ran before and after the Powerchip tune I was there when he was getting his tune. I made about 385whp and that C63 after the tune made 402whp(340 stock) on the exact same machine so uh thats very easily 490-500hp crank.
Also how many legitimate 500hp cars has Drew beaten you've seen all his vids right? Well me and Drew are very close it practically comes down to how well I can shift when running him.
I never questioned his car. His car runs very well and all his videos yield consistent outcomes. He walks a stock C63 and CLK63 BS, slightly loses to a tuned one, gets walked by a highly modded one, gets destroyed by a stock ZO6. He even admits the difference is clearly the DCT.
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      10-06-2009, 12:49 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
Thanks but I'm not your bud and this isn't the Dunkin Donuts parking lot on a Saturday night. Your numbers are inconsistent with the norm. Stock C63's on a dynojet yield anywhere I seen from 370whp (Average) to as high as 385whp. What type of dyno was this? 340whp on a dynojet is WEAK and if I was the owner I be making a service appointment. Powerchip tune C63's on 91 octane all average 420+whp. Kleemann K1 tunes are slightly more conservative numbers. Also 490-500hp at the crank huh? You dyno 385 at the wheels and you have a 6MT? 22-21% drive train lost huh?
Ya I dont run Dynojets. I run DynoDynamics you should read about them sometime maybe you would have a clue what your talking about. BTW Drews car made 370 on a Mustang Dyno which is similar to a DynoDynamics in that they both read LOWER then a Dynjet. And also if you knew what your talking about they numbers doesnt mean the car has a 22-32% drivetrain loss it just reads differently. Its not at all compareable to any Dynojet other then if both me and Drew ran on Dynojet we would both break 400whp. I've also ran on a calibrated Dynapack Dyno and made about 405(398 corrected)whp thats about equivalent to a dynojet number.

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I never questioned his car. His car runs very well and all his videos yield consistent outcomes. He walks a stock C63 and CLK63 BS, slightly loses to a tuned one, gets walked by a highly modded one, gets destroyed by a stock ZO6. He even admits the difference is clearly the DCT.
Ya I know exactly what hes ran I've ran alot of cars too in the same fashion Drew also says I'm the fastest manual M3 that he's ever ran I've also seen him walk other 6mt modded M3's by carlenghts same thing with other DCT cars bottom line is not all cars are the same and not all drivers are the same. Eitherway go read about different dynos and then you can maybe have a point but dont just go talk about something you have no clue about and try to state fact.
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      10-06-2009, 01:08 PM   #38
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This doesn't make sense. In the 6MT, you can't start in 1st gear on a 50 mph roll. Redline in first happens at 41 mph. At 50 mph, you'd have to start in 2nd, which would put you right at 6,000 rpm, which is where you claim the M3's sweet spot is. How is this so bad for the M3?.

My bad. The videos are 50 KM/H to 260 km/h.

50 km/h = 31 mph.

Anybody with an M3 go out on the road & put your car into 2nd gear and roll at 30mph. Bam, nothing happens when you gas it. Rather go into 1st gear at 31mph. Whoever, those M3 drivers are, they need to learn how not to get suckered into a 30mph 2nd gear roll-on with forced indiction cars. If I were in the 335, I'd be brake-torque-ing it at 30mph as well. Hell, I would dream about running M3's in a roll-race like that were I can brake torque & get slingshot start.
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      10-06-2009, 01:12 PM   #39
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Still, how come then the only scenario where a M3 DCT Coupe (Forget a 6MT) wins Vs a C63 is when it is more modified?
Err, maybe because the C63 is the faster car? What you reckon?
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      10-06-2009, 01:32 PM   #40
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My bad. The videos are 50 KM/H to 260 km/h.

50 km/h = 31 mph.

Anybody with an M3 go out on the road & put your car into 2nd gear and roll at 30mph. Bam, nothing happens when you gas it. Rather go into 1st gear at 31mph. Whoever, those M3 drivers are, they need to learn how not to get suckered into a 30mph 2nd gear roll-on with forced indiction cars. If I were in the 335, I'd be brake-torque-ing it at 30mph as well. Hell, I would dream about running M3's in a roll-race like that were I can brake torque & get slingshot start.
Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. 30 mph is a pretty terrible rolling speed to start at. I'd probably start in 1st gear also, but it's a lose-lose situation either way. Starting at 31 mph puts you at about 6300 rpm in first gear, which gives you only 2000 rpm to work with before redline. If you just mash it at that point, you'll break the rear tires lose, so you have to roll into the throttle, which means that you don't even have full throttle for the full 2000 rpm remaining before redline. It also adds the time penalty of another shift.
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      10-06-2009, 01:56 PM   #41
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Ya I dont run Dynojets. I run DynoDynamics you should read about them sometime maybe you would have a clue what your talking about. BTW Drews car made 370 on a Mustang Dyno which is similar to a DynoDynamics in that they both read LOWER then a Dynjet. And also if you knew what your talking about they numbers doesnt mean the car has a 22-32% drivetrain loss it just reads differently. Its not at all compareable to any Dynojet other then if both me and Drew ran on Dynojet we would both break 400whp. I've also ran on a calibrated Dynapack Dyno and made about 405(398 corrected)whp thats about equivalent to a dynojet number.



Ya I know exactly what hes ran I've ran alot of cars too in the same fashion Drew also says I'm the fastest manual M3 that he's ever ran I've also seen him walk other 6mt modded M3's by carlenghts same thing with other DCT cars bottom line is not all cars are the same and not all drivers are the same. Eitherway go read about different dynos and then you can maybe have a point but dont just go talk about something you have no clue about and try to state fact.
Here it comes, "I don't know what I am talking about card" Yes I am aware that a Dynojet yields the highest result and that the Dyno Dynamics is the "Heart Break" dyno. However a Mustang dyno yields higher results then the Dyno Dynamics but still not as high as the Dynojet. Also wouldn't have been appropriate for someone who claims to "know what he is talking about" to mention what type of Dyno he used and what the results were then just all of a sudden making the claim?
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      10-06-2009, 02:16 PM   #42
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Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. 30 mph is a pretty terrible rolling speed to start at. I'd probably start in 1st gear also, but it's a lose-lose situation either way. Starting at 31 mph puts you at about 6300 rpm in first gear, which gives you only 2000 rpm to work with before redline. If you just mash it at that point, you'll break the rear tires lose, so you have to roll into the throttle, which means that you don't even have full throttle for the full 2000 rpm remaining before redline. It also adds the time penalty of another shift.
In my opinion it doesn't matter what disadvantage there is. You HAVE to get up into the powerband. Even if its only for 2000rpm. Because from that point forward you will redline that gear & always be in the powerband for the following gears.

Here are 2 more videos to illustrate my point. Both runs are 50km/h to 260km/h & it says so in the banner at the start. A modded 335 against a Porsche 997 GT3-RS & the same 335 against a stock M3. 2nd gear roll-on. The Porsche with a significant power advantage & a big weight advantage gets a beating. It loses so much ground at the start, that it can't even come back on the top end. And this is a car that does a true top speed well in excess of 300km/h straight out the factory. In fact the M3 looks like it does better on the top end than the Porsche, but that could just be circumstances on those races.

The point these videos prove is that rolling with highly tuned NA cars out of powerband is a pointless exercise & doesn't prove anything. Races should be from a dig, or a roll in 1st gear. One has to give both cars a fair chance to get into the respective powerbands & 1st gear rolling tends to even out gearing & powerband differences between most vehicles.



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      10-06-2009, 02:31 PM   #43
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i find these comparison pretty pointless. doesn't matter if the 355i or s4 has 500-600hp. most would still choose the m3. two totally different car.

same go for car like sti, evo, supra, you can tune those thing to make mad power and smoke m3 any day. but still it is no m3.

same go for whatever you do the m3, it will never be a gt3 even if it can hang with one. one would choose the gt3 over the m3 any day.

I'm just trying to point out the pointlessness of these comparisons
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      10-06-2009, 02:34 PM   #44
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In my opinion it doesn't matter what disadvantage there is. You HAVE to get up into the powerband. Even if its only for 2000rpm. Because from that point forward you will redline that gear & always be in the powerband for the following gears.

Here are 2 more videos to illustrate my point. Both runs are 50km/h to 260km/h & it says so in the banner at the start. A modded 335 against a Porsche 997 GT3-RS & the same 335 against a stock M3. 2nd gear roll-on. The Porsche with a significant power advantage & a big weight advantage gets a beating. It loses so much ground at the start, that it can't even come back on the top end. And this is a car that does a true top speed well in excess of 300km/h straight out the factory. In fact the M3 looks like it does better on the top end than the Porsche, but that could just be circumstances on those races.

The point these videos prove is that rolling with highly tuned NA cars out of powerband is a pointless exercise & doesn't prove anything. Races should be from a dig, or a roll in 1st gear. One has to give both cars a fair chance to get into the respective powerbands & 1st gear rolling tends to even out gearing & powerband differences between most vehicles.




Any rolling start is very dependent on both drivers hitting the hammer at the same time, a split fraction sooner with one than the other and the outcome is dealt there and then if the cars are pretty evenly matched.

This JB3, please enlighten me with the breakdown as to what's been done to this car from the video and exactly how much power you think it's making.

Also based on what I did happen to see, I reckon the 335i got the jump on both other cars, if that is the case then I reckon it's only slightly quicker than the MTM S4.

P.S.
The sad and sorry thing about this latest GTBoard event is it's becoming an event for tuned cars. Previously it was mostly stock so gave a better indicator as to how each model of car performed against it's rivals, but now it's a guessing games as to what mods have been done and how much have been declared.
footie is offline   No_Country
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