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      09-16-2009, 10:04 PM   #23
scollins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
EDIT: also, why is the flag down @ half mast in the video that Septro posted?
Seriously? You don't have a clue as to why the Flag would be at half-mast? How soon the American public has forgotten.......

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      09-16-2009, 10:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by scollins View Post
How soon the American public has forgotten.......

It is sad. 9/11 is a fading memory for many. Maybe it would have made a statement if the flag were flying upside down.
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      09-16-2009, 10:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by MteK View Post
A great quote for Teabags to ponder on:

"In what sense is the money in our pockets and bank accounts fully ‘ours’? Did we earn it by our own autonomous efforts? Could we have inherited it without the assistance of probate courts? Do we save it without the support of bank regulators? Could we spend it if there were no public officials to coordinate the efforts and pool the resources of the community in which we live?... Without taxes there would be no liberty. Without taxes there would be no property. Without taxes, few of us would have any assets worth defending. [It is] a dim fiction that some people enjoy and exercise their rights without placing any burden whatsoever on the public… There is no liberty without dependency"
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Originally Posted by MteK View Post
But it does say taxes are necessary to ensure the public well-being. As such the government is responsible for the health care of 10's of millions of uninsured such as the elderly and disabled folks. By law we required to treat anyone who walks into an emergency room with a life or death situation. And medical costs continue to skyrocket under the current system. I'd say the government has a stake in this fight.

What solution do you propose?

Nice quote... My proposal, (not specifically for health care, more of a fix-all) well not really mine. Some smart people used it as a battle cry a little over 200 years ago.... "no taxation without representation" I, like many others in this day and age choose to turn it around and say, No representation without taxation. See back then, people had to support themselves (or CHOOSE to be destitute) and even without representation they were paying taxes. Well, for a while anyway. We wouldn't have to turn that phrase around until some liberal jerk off convinced/manipulated the system to believe that the words "all men were created equal" means everyone deserves a vote, despite their contribution to pot, otherwise know as taxes. take away a vote from those who don't pay taxes and no one would even have a clue that Obama's middle name is Hussein. Even Obama is smart enough to know that he wouldn't have had a chance without their vote. I just don't see what is so wrong with not letting people vote until they produce a valid tax return for at least 2 years prior to the election year.
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      09-16-2009, 11:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Nixon View Post
If you don't like paying for government, go move to somewhere they don't have one, like Nigeria.
i don't mind paying for government. I just don't like paying for a government that caters/cares more for those in society who don't pay for government.

Doesn't that make sense?

I know it's becoming cliché, but it true... is it not?

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatreds.
You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away a man's initiative and independence.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.
William J. H. Boetcker, 1916 (often attributed to Lincoln)
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      09-16-2009, 11:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
It is sad. 9/11 is a fading memory for many. Maybe it would have made a statement if the flag were flying upside down.
Flying the flag upside is meant to indicate extreme distress to life or property.. while the taking back our government theme of the 9/12 rally seems like a qualifying event - I wouldn't recommend on diminishing the impact of the signal an upside-down flag is supposed to represent.

Most folks don't know that these days anyway - some prolly wouldn't blink twice if they saw it instead of investigating how they can help..
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      09-17-2009, 08:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MteK View Post
But it does say taxes are necessary to ensure the public well-being. As such the government is responsible for the health care of 10's of millions of uninsured such as the elderly and disabled folks. By law we required to treat anyone who walks into an emergency room with a life or death situation. And medical costs continue to skyrocket under the current system. I'd say the government has a stake in this fight.

What solution do you propose?
I believe then that this is where you and I would disagree. I do not believe that the government should be directly responsible for ensuring proper healthcare for everyone in the US by actively entering the marketplace via a public option. The government instead should do what it can to encourage the private sector to be as competitive as possible. This would include making insurance portable, allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, eliminating minimum levels of coverage, placing limits on damages awarded in lawsuits, offering tax credits for people who buy their own insurance, modernizing/standardizing claims processing, etc. In short, allow a more open and competitive insurance marketplace by reducing artificial restrictions already in place, and remove the extra costs (many of which are the result of inefficiencies in the system).

Certainly easier said than done, but I believe that by making smaller modifications to the existing system, we will be able to accomplish meaningful reform far more quickly than we will by trying to do a massive overhaul of the system.
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      09-17-2009, 08:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
Seriously? You don't have a clue as to why the Flag would be at half-mast? How soon the American public has forgotten.......

Nope hadn't forgotten, but this was on the 12th, I had figured that flag would be flown half mast on 9/11, but not on the weekend following too.
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      09-17-2009, 10:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Bush era tax cuts cost the country more than any of the stimulus spending, TARP, or the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. If you are REALLY that concerned by gov't spending, why aren't you bitching about tax cuts for the rich?

Facts
People seem to ignore this argument everytime its brought up. We can spend a Trillion plus on a war of choice (bad choice), but when we decide to spend that amount of money on our own people (many of them poor), the outrage begins.
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      09-17-2009, 10:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by nostrum09 View Post
I believe then that this is where you and I would disagree. I do not believe that the government should be directly responsible for ensuring proper healthcare for everyone in the US by actively entering the marketplace via a public option. The government instead should do what it can to encourage the private sector to be as competitive as possible. This would include making insurance portable, allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, eliminating minimum levels of coverage, placing limits on damages awarded in lawsuits, offering tax credits for people who buy their own insurance, modernizing/standardizing claims processing, etc. In short, allow a more open and competitive insurance marketplace by reducing artificial restrictions already in place, and remove the extra costs (many of which are the result of inefficiencies in the system).

Certainly easier said than done, but I believe that by making smaller modifications to the existing system, we will be able to accomplish meaningful reform far more quickly than we will by trying to do a massive overhaul of the system.
Amen to that, but the issue is that the Pres seems to be putting the needs of uninsured people that don't have jobs before the needs of the insured people that do have jobs.

Now i know that there are is a legitimate sector of people out there who have been laid off and have skills, drive, and are trying to gain employment. But pool up all the unemployed, non taxpaying people in the country and those who are actually trying got gain employment are a small percentage of that number.

There are some tough decisions to be made and it certainly is easy for us to sit back and say this or that would fix everything. But I’m starting to believe that the decisions currently being made are starting to determine whether the United States, as a democracy, will or will not survive. I total get the concept that sacrifices need to be made for the good of society; but I don’t believe that feeding, clothing, housing, and insuring those that are unwilling to contribute to the pot is or will be for the good of society.
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      09-17-2009, 10:29 AM   #32
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There are some tough decisions to be made and it certainly is easy for us to sit back and say this or that would fix everything. But I’m starting to believe that the decisions currently being made are starting to determine whether the United States, as a democracy, will or will not survive. I total get the concept that sacrifices need to be made for the good of society; but I don’t believe that feeding, clothing, housing, and insuring those that are unwilling to contribute to the pot is or will be for the good of society.
Agree with you very much on the above, especially about the changes our nation is going through. We are moving away from a society where individual ability is rewarded, to one where people will feel increasingly entitled to what they believe to be basic "rights." From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, as Marx believed, is not where our country should be headed.
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      09-17-2009, 10:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Nope hadn't forgotten, but this was on the 12th, I had figured that flag would be flown half mast on 9/11, but not on the weekend following too.
It is a government building, so there is a zero percent chance that anyone was working in the building that weekend to raise the flag back to full staff. Every government building I saw over the weekend had their flags at half-staff, even the post office (which was open on Saturday....)
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      09-17-2009, 10:55 AM   #34
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Bush era tax cuts cost the country more than any of the stimulus spending, TARP, or the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. If you are REALLY that concerned by gov't spending, why aren't you bitching about tax cuts for the rich?
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People seem to ignore this argument everytime its brought up. We can spend a Trillion plus on a war of choice (bad choice), but when we decide to spend that amount of money on our own people (many of them poor), the outrage begins.
Hmm, I’ll give you my opinion.

Citing your quote, I don’t bitch about tax cuts for the rich because the rich do more for society through charity and giving than they EVER will through paying taxes. Our government was established to provide an environment in which you have the freedom to pursue happiness. It was never created, nor should it exist to PROVIDE happiness. (The word happiness encompassing all things from our basic needs to luxuries such as cars and what not) I know people on a local level who make a mere few million a year who give 3 to 4 times my salary in a year. People who actually make a difference by giving those willing, that can’t, an opportunity, to DO. You want to cause strife and turmoil in this country, keep over taxing the rich.

War is never wanted, sometimes needed, but always makes a statement. One could argue that America’s willingness to retaliate with great vengeance against those who threaten our way of life may conjure up fear and less willingness in those who want to degrade our way of life. In turn protecting the environment in which we are free to pursue happiness; in my opinion, the governments highest and best use.

Also, let me remind you that the poorest American is by FAR and AWAY more rich than the majority of the remaining world population. That fact along with the fact that America offers more opportunity to anyone, no matter gender or race, than any other country out there is the reason I’m less inclined to help those who aren’t willing to help themselves, let alone help others. I would most certainly help an entire nation of people who CAN’T help themselves; than help America’s “poor” when they’re not WILLING to help themselves. And it’s not like America hasn’t been giving them a leg up over time either. There are programs, grants, scholarships, schools, shelters, charitable entities standing ready, willing, and able to help America’s “poor” get on their feet. Yet hardly any taken full advantage of…
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Last edited by Mr Tonka; 09-17-2009 at 12:24 PM.
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      09-17-2009, 11:07 AM   #35
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People seem to ignore this argument everytime its brought up. We can spend a Trillion plus on a war of choice (bad choice), but when we decide to spend that amount of money on our own people (many of them poor), the outrage begins.
It takes a liberal to believe that allowing someone to keep more of the money they earn is costing the government something. The share of federal income taxes paid by the "rich" increased after the tax cuts.

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq will, like all wars, end. That spending will then cease. Government spending on health care will not end. It will do nothing but grow for eternity.
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      09-17-2009, 01:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
People seem to ignore this argument everytime its brought up. We can spend a Trillion plus on a war of choice (bad choice), but when we decide to spend that amount of money on our own people (many of them poor), the outrage begins.
If government is to provide a health insurance solution, it should be at the state level. To provide for the common defense is exclusively in the purvue of the federal government except in emergency to repel invasion.
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      09-17-2009, 03:38 PM   #37
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If government is to provide a health insurance solution, it should be at the state level. To provide for the common defense is exclusively in the purvue of the federal government except in emergency to repel invasion.
Good response, but i don't agree because segmenting the pool (into states) seems like it would effectively lower the insurance providers buying power.
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      09-17-2009, 03:53 PM   #38
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It takes a liberal to believe that allowing someone to keep more of the money they earn is costing the government something. The share of federal income taxes paid by the "rich" increased after the tax cuts.

The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq will, like all wars, end. That spending will then cease. Government spending on health care will not end. It will do nothing but grow for eternity.
No, it takes a "librul" to be fine with the concept of lowing taxes when we've a sharp increase of cost due to fighting the war.

And historically, the marginal tax rate is not high for the wealthy




source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/2008063...eme_inequality

No one likes paying higher taxes, but it paying slightly higher taxes can greatly improve the nation, i'm all for it. The same argument you are making was first made in the 90s when Clinton took over. Everyone was groaning about taxes; but that was soon replaced with gloats about much money people have in the stock market.
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      09-17-2009, 04:09 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Septro View Post
Flying the flag upside is meant to indicate extreme distress to life or property.. while the taking back our government theme of the 9/12 rally seems like a qualifying event - I wouldn't recommend on diminishing the impact of the signal an upside-down flag is supposed to represent.

Most folks don't know that these days anyway - some prolly wouldn't blink twice if they saw it instead of investigating how they can help..
A few weeks ago the AIG building in NY was flying their US flag upside on the roof. I laughed about it for hours. Is there a better example of extreme duress to property?
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      09-17-2009, 05:21 PM   #40
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No, it takes a "librul" to be fine with the concept of lowing taxes when we've a sharp increase of cost due to fighting the war.

And historically, the marginal tax rate is not high for the wealthy

No one likes paying higher taxes, but it paying slightly higher taxes can greatly improve the nation, i'm all for it. The same argument you are making was first made in the 90s when Clinton took over. Everyone was groaning about taxes; but that was soon replaced with gloats about much money people have in the stock market.
You must be a fan of static scoring. Tax rates have no effect on behavior? How much money would the government get if the top marginal tax rate was 100%?

If you like paying more, no one is stopping you from writing a check to the US Treasury.

Marginal tax rates were not the subject of my post. I was speaking of the portion of federal income taxes paid by the "rich." They paid a larger percentage of those taxes under GW Bush than they did under Clinton.

Arguing that tax cuts are for the "rich" when it is the "rich" who pay the taxes is a bit nonsensical.
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      09-17-2009, 08:02 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
No, it takes a "librul" to be fine with the concept of lowing taxes when we've a sharp increase of cost due to fighting the war.

And historically, the marginal tax rate is not high for the wealthy




source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/2008063...eme_inequality

No one likes paying higher taxes, but it paying slightly higher taxes can greatly improve the nation, i'm all for it. The same argument you are making was first made in the 90s when Clinton took over. Everyone was groaning about taxes; but that was soon replaced with gloats about much money people have in the stock market.
These charts talk only about income levels and the marginal tax rate. Neither chart details out the taxes paid for the various levels. There are plenty of Americans that don't pay any income taxes at all, and actually get money paid to them by the government! My wife is a CPA, and she has prepared quite a few of these returns. They are all low income individuals.

So while the marginal and effective tax rates on the rich may be "low" in your opinion, having a NEGATIVE effective tax rate (getting back more than you paid in) is BS.
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      09-18-2009, 09:07 AM   #42
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These charts talk only about income levels and the marginal tax rate. Neither chart details out the taxes paid for the various levels. There are plenty of Americans that don't pay any income taxes at all, and actually get money paid to them by the government! My wife is a CPA, and she has prepared quite a few of these returns. They are all low income individuals.

So while the marginal and effective tax rates on the rich may be "low" in your opinion, having a NEGATIVE effective tax rate (getting back more than you paid in) is BS.
My wife is a CPA as well and the only thing you left out is that your example happens MUCH more than any of you imagine it does. What happens more than that..??.. people not paying taxes at all.

Anyone have any idea of how much untaxed revenue flows through New Orleans alone? I would love to know that statistic. You can hardly use a credit card in that town. Nearly every store has an ATM and only takes cash.... I wonder why?
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      09-22-2009, 10:17 PM   #43
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If you don't like paying for government, go move to somewhere they don't have one, like Nigeria.
hahahaha....i forgot about this thread...and then i read this...i don't mind paying my fair share...but if you think that you can tax your way to prosperity then I hope that your wife runs the family finances...for your kids sake

also...we need to cut government spending...

from today's WSJ....btw ii know that laffer has his flaws too

By ARTHUR B. LAFFER

The 1930s has become the sole object lesson for today's monetary policy. Over the past 12 months, the Federal Reserve has increased the monetary base (bank reserves plus currency in circulation) by well over 100%. While currency in circulation has grown slightly, there's been an impressive 17-fold increase in bank reserves. The federal-funds target rate now stands at an all-time low range of zero to 25 basis points, with the 91-day Treasury bill yield equally low. All this has been done to avoid a liquidity crisis and a repeat of the mistakes that led to the Great Depression.

Even with this huge increase in the monetary base, Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke has reiterated his goal not to repeat the mistakes made back in the 1930s by tightening credit too soon, which he says would send the economy back into recession. The strong correlation between soaring unemployment and falling consumer prices in the early 1930s leads Mr. Bernanke to conclude that tight money caused both. To prevent a double dip, super easy monetary policy is the key.

While Fed policy was undoubtedly important, it was not the primary cause of the Great Depression or the economy's relapse in 1937. The Smoot-Hawley tariff of June 1930 was the catalyst that got the whole process going. It was the largest single increase in taxes on trade during peacetime and precipitated massive retaliation by foreign governments on U.S. products. Huge federal and state tax increases in 1932 followed the initial decline in the economy thus doubling down on the impact of Smoot-Hawley. There were additional large tax increases in 1936 and 1937 that were the proximate cause of the economy's relapse in 1937.

In 1930-31, during the Hoover administration and in the midst of an economic collapse, there was a very slight increase in tax rates on personal income at both the lowest and highest brackets. The corporate tax rate was also slightly increased to 12% from 11%. But beginning in 1932 the lowest personal income tax rate was raised to 4% from less than one-half of 1% while the highest rate was raised to 63% from 25%. (That's not a misprint!) The corporate rate was raised to 13.75% from 12%. All sorts of Federal excise taxes too numerous to list were raised as well. The highest inheritance tax rate was also raised in 1932 to 45% from 20% and the gift tax was reinstituted with the highest rate set at 33.5%.

But the tax hikes didn't stop there. In 1934, during the Roosevelt administration, the highest estate tax rate was raised to 60% from 45% and raised again to 70% in 1935. The highest gift tax rate was raised to 45% in 1934 from 33.5% in 1933 and raised again to 52.5% in 1935. The highest corporate tax rate was raised to 15% in 1936 with a surtax on undistributed profits up to 27%. In 1936 the highest personal income tax rate was raised yet again to 79% from 63%—a stifling 216% increase in four years. Finally, in 1937 a 1% employer and a 1% employee tax was placed on all wages up to $3,000.

Because of the number of states and their diversity I'm going to aggregate all state and local taxes and express them as a percentage of GDP. This measure of state tax policy truly understates the state and local tax contribution to the tragedy we call the Great Depression, but I'm sure the reader will get the picture. In 1929, state and local taxes were 7.2% of GDP and then rose to 8.5%, 9.7% and 12.3% for the years 1930, '31 and '32 respectively.

The damage caused by high taxation during the Great Depression is the real lesson we should learn. A government simply cannot tax a country into prosperity. If there were one warning I'd give to all who will listen, it is that U.S. federal and state tax policies are on an economic crash trajectory today just as they were in the 1930s. Net legislated state-tax increases as a percentage of previous year tax receipts are at 3.1%, their highest level since 1991; the Bush tax cuts are set to expire in 2011; and additional taxes to pay for health-care and the proposed cap-and-trade scheme are on the horizon.

In addition to all of these tax issues, the U.S. in the early 1930s was on a gold standard where paper currency was legally convertible into gold. Both circulated in the economy as money. At the outset of the Great Depression people distrusted banks but trusted paper currency and gold. They withdrew deposits from banks, which because of a fractional reserve system caused a drop in the money supply in spite of a rising monetary base. The Fed really had little power to control either bank reserves or interest rates.

The increase in the demand for paper currency and gold not only had a quantity effect on the money supply but it also put upward pressure on the price of gold, which meant that dollar prices of all goods and services had to fall for the relative price of gold to rise. The deflation of the early 1930s was not caused by tight money. It was the result of panic purchases of fixed-dollar priced gold. From the end of 1929 until early 1933 the Consumer Price Index fell by 27%.

By mid-1932 there were public fears of a change in the gold-dollar relationship. In their classic text, "A Monetary History of the United States," economists Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz wrote, "Fears of devaluation were widespread and the public's preference for gold was unmistakable." Panic ensued and there was a rush to buy gold.

In early 1933, the federal government (not the Federal Reserve) declared a bank holiday prohibiting banks from paying out gold or dealing in foreign exchange. An executive order made it illegal for anyone to "hoard" gold and forced everyone to turn in their gold and gold certificates to the government at an exchange value of $20.67 per ounce of gold in return for paper currency and bank deposits. All gold clauses in contracts private and public were declared null and void and by the end of January 1934 the price of gold, most of which had been confiscated by the government, was raised to $35 per ounce. In other words, in less than one year the government confiscated as much gold as it could at $20.67 an ounce and then devalued the dollar in terms of gold by almost 60%. That's one helluva tax.

The 1933-34 devaluation of the dollar caused the money supply to grow by over 60% from April 1933 to March 1937, and over that same period the monetary base grew by over 35% and adjusted reserves grew by about 100%. Monetary policy was about as easy as it could get. The consumer price index from early 1933 through mid-1937 rose by about 15% in spite of double-digit unemployment. And that's the story.

The lessons here are pretty straightforward. Inflation can and did occur during a depression, and that inflation was strictly a monetary phenomenon.

My hope is that the people who are running our economy do look to the Great Depression as an object lesson. My fear is that they will misinterpret the evidence and attribute high unemployment and the initial decline in prices to tight money, while increasing taxes to combat budget deficits.

Mr. Laffer is the chairman of Laffer Associates and co-author of "The End of Prosperity: How Higher Taxes Will Doom the Economy—If We Let It Happen" (Threshold, 2008).
Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page A25
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      09-23-2009, 10:30 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
also...we need to cut government spending...

from today's WSJ....btw ii know that laffer has his flaws too
I haven't studied economics in much detail, but I gravitate toward Austrian economics. Keynsian economics has been very flawed from the start.
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