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      09-10-2009, 10:48 AM   #23
94JZA80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
There is a lot more to making the critiria of a driver's car than simply being quick, handle great, etc, etc, etc.

Each car on this list is there for a number of reasons, maybe emotional, how it makes you feel while driving (i.e MX5) or simply for the way the thing does what it does (i.e.GTR).

I totally 'get it' with a lot on this list, though at the same time I can fully understand why so many of you are not.
IMO, i think some folks are just way too loose with their definition of a "driver's car." people make it out to be far more of a subjective concept than it really is. i feel you're simply conforming to EVO's definition of "driver's car," which, as someone has already pointed out, seems to define the cars on this list as "cool" cars, and not necessarily "driver's cars."

basically it boils down to the fact that you and i have different opinions on what the definition of a driver's car really is. but everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion.
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      09-10-2009, 11:03 AM   #24
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If you look closely at this list you will see certain names getting the majority of the share.

12 Porsche
11 Ferrari
6 Lotus + 1 Caterham (Lotus 7)
6 Renault
6 Ford
6 BMW
3 each for Honda, Audi, Lamborghini and Subaru

But then if you disregard everything below 25 and concentrate solely of them it gets very interesting to see the names that are holding the major shares.

7 Ferrari
3 Lotus + 1 Caterham (Lotus 7)
3 Renault
2 Porsche
And 1 each for Audi, Honda, Subura and Ford.

We've lost BMW, Lamborghini. Two names that one would think produce the most exciting driver's cars but in reality neither fully entertain as well as the others listed ahead of them.

I'm not surprised to see who came first or that Ferrari dominated the way they did, I'm just pleased that some of my all-time favourites got mentioned. What this list shows is that people are very stupid to disregard fwd as neither exciting or entertaining and it shows that the names that are immortalized in F1 history are the same names that produce the best driver's cars in the world.
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      09-10-2009, 11:12 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
If you look closely at this list you will see certain names getting the majority of the share.

12 Porsche
11 Ferrari
6 Lotus + 1 Caterham (Lotus 7)
6 Renault
6 Ford
6 BMW
3 each for Honda, Audi, Lamborghini and Subaru
footie - you're giving Lotus less credit than it deserves. By my count, they have nine on the list.

2- Lotus 340R
4- Caterham Superlight R300 (Lotus 7, as you noted)
6- Lotus Elan
19- Lotus Elise
31- Lotus Evora
34- Lotus Esprit V8 Sport 350
36- Lotus Exige
53- Lotus 2-Eleven
87- Vauxhall VX220 (Elise platform, built by Lotus for GM Europe)
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      09-10-2009, 11:24 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK View Post
footie - you're giving Lotus less credit than it deserves. By my count, they have nine on the list.

2- Lotus 340R
4- Caterham Superlight R300 (Lotus 7, as you noted)
6- Lotus Elan
19- Lotus Elise
31- Lotus Evora
34- Lotus Esprit V8 Sport 350
36- Lotus Exige
53- Lotus 2-Eleven
87- Vauxhall VX220 (Elise platform, built by Lotus for GM Europe)
If you added to that list the number of cars that Lotus actually worked on the handling the list would be huge.
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      09-10-2009, 11:48 AM   #27
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Gumpert got beat out by a fricken boxster? Fail...
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      09-10-2009, 12:44 PM   #28
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I don't have any problems with the list, except for a few strange choices.

The E89 Z4M is ten times the driver's car than the E60 M5.

It's hard to make a top 100 list like this. In the end, there's still a large amount of subjectivity to it. Everyone's bound to disagree on something.

Footie, while FWD cars can be fun, I think they're few and far between.

Nothing beats balancing a car's rear end with the throttle and some counter steer.
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      09-10-2009, 12:53 PM   #29
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instead of having a Corvette Z06 or Zr1 on the list, they have a VW GTI
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      09-10-2009, 01:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyndon_h View Post
instead of having a Corvette Z06 or Zr1 on the list, they have a VW GTI
+1

this is exactly the point i was trying to make earlier - the definition of a "driver's car" may be quite subjective, and as such, i can see how some cars made the list and other did not. but under no circumstances could a VW GTI be more of a driver's car than either a Z06 or a ZR1. let's face it, some of the selections they got right, and some of them they got terribly wrong.


...then again, perhaps i shouldn't put it in terms of right and wrong...but i will say this - whoever takes a VW GTI for a spin, then hops into either a Z06 or ZR1 (or both), and then decides that the VW is more of a driver's car...well, he or she has a very skewed view of what a driver's car really is, regardless of how subjective its definition can be...not that EVO did exactly that - i'm just saying...
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      09-10-2009, 01:02 PM   #31
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Thumbs up

It's a horrible, horrible list for sure.
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      09-10-2009, 01:41 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94JZA80 View Post
+1

this is exactly the point i was trying to make earlier - the definition of a "driver's car" may be quite subjective, and as such, i can see how some cars made the list and other did not. but under no circumstances could a VW GTI be more of a driver's car than either a Z06 or a ZR1. let's face it, some of the selections they got right, and some of them they got terribly wrong.


...then again, perhaps i shouldn't put it in terms of right and wrong...but i will say this - whoever takes a VW GTI for a spin, then hops into either a Z06 or ZR1 (or both), and then decides that the VW is more of a driver's car...well, he or she has a very skewed view of what a driver's car really is, regardless of how subjective its definition can be...not that EVO did exactly that - i'm just saying...
EXACTLY.

The thing is, there's simply too many cars and too many opinions to make even a somewhat decent list.
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      09-10-2009, 01:47 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
EXACTLY.

The thing is, there's simply too many cars and too many opinions to make even a somewhat decent list.
Looking at that list I double any one person on their staff has driven all of those cars, so how did they rank them? Useless list.
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      09-10-2009, 04:54 PM   #34
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They give their definition of a "Driver's Car" in the article, and I understand why an E30 M3 is on the list, and a Miata is on the list, as well as the FRW cars. If you haven't read the article or the feedback they give on each car, you don't have the same perspective that they are using, so it's unfair to critic their list based on your assumptions of "Drivers Car", just by looking at an unsupported list.

I knew the E39 M5, E46 CS/CSL, E92 M3 and E30 M3 were going to be on the list since they loved those when they did the best ///M article when the E92 M3 came out 1 1/2 ago.

I like the list in general, not the specific order of some cars, but across budgets, that a great list of cars to drive.
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      09-10-2009, 05:41 PM   #35
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touche


you're right - i have been critiquing the list from my own perspective, which is of course why i only agree with some of what EVO says. i'm sure i would understand their list much better if i read the entire article...and i believe you when you say that the list makes more sense if you see it from the writer's perspective. i just think some people here disagree with what EVO defines as a driver's car. its all good.
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      09-10-2009, 08:23 PM   #36
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no MC12? no RR Phantom?
Lmao nice
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      09-11-2009, 01:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
Footie, while FWD cars can be fun, I think they're few and far between.

Nothing beats balancing a car's rear end with the throttle and some counter steer.
I've had to test both these two Renaults and like BMW's Mini they are very thuckable with the tail always proving playable. I'm not saying that it's any better than balancing a tail by the throttle but these two are only slightly less entertaining on the track and in my opinion are more entertaining than a heck of a lot of rwd cars on public roads and that includes the M3. But when you come back to reality they are only cheap tin tops from a French manufacturer and no matter how entertaining any car is I still prefer something with a bit more quality.

Now if Volkswagen made their Golf GTI as entertaining as either of these two Renaults than I doubt I would ever progress up the ladder beyond that point. Sad to say Volkswagen are too grown up to fully let it's hair down and produce such a machine.
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      09-11-2009, 04:49 AM   #38
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Re: Megane R26.R & GT-R
Most any mag that has tested the R26.R raves about its subjective performance. For example, in Performance Car Magazine's COTY article, it placed 2nd overall, beating out the Scirocco, updated Aston Martin V8 Vantage, E90 M3, Evo X, and Caterham 7 CDX. 2 out of the 6 editors ranked it #1 on their list; the rest of the editors no lower than 4th.
Now, guess which car ranked #1 among the 4 other editors? That's right. The GT-R. The car which won Evo's COTY award*, Autocar's Best Driver's Car '08 award, AutoExpress's Performance COTY '08 award, and Car Magazine's COTY award. None of these were decided on lap times. Those who claim it's just a machine doing the driving have likely never driven one. Every single one of these mags (in addition to Drivers Republic, Randy Pobst in Motor Trend, and TopGear) have indicated it requires driver involvement and rewards accordingly.
*In that article, the R26.R beat all contenders in the "everyday" cars category, so was invited to compete against the super sports & GT's. It ranked 4th, behind the 997 GT2, but ahead of the Alfa 8C, Maserati GT, and updated Vantage.


Re: Integra Type R
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/carg...a_integra.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...tech_data.html
(0.92g in a FWD car with only 195mm wide tires...)

http://www.itrsport.com/reviewArticl...rx_vs_itr.html
http://www.itrsport.com/reviewArticl...rst_drive.html

So we have reviews from at least 3 continents raving about the ITR's driving experience. Chances are slim that they are all wrong.
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