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      04-27-2011, 10:50 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
Right, so now that the long form birth certificate has been shown, the goal post must be moved. And it will continue to be moved as many times and as far as it must be moved to make sure this president can never reach it.
No... it is just being tried in the court of public opinion. The facts are so very slowly emerging. It appears that at least one thing is established: We have a COLB long form that took 2-1/2 years to get. If the document is authentic, then it is time to move to the next step. Was Stanley Ann Dunham at the time of birth qualified to establish Natural Born citizen status for her newborn son? I don't have the answer in front of me... nor is it an easy answer to come by. I don't know that I have seen the information that would be needed to draw a conclusion.

The definition of Natural Born citizen has changed somewhat at times. And certainly the general populace has not taken seriously the Constitutional pre-requisites to hold the highest office. It seems this question is both about what was the original intent in the writing of the Constitution, and then the question, is the Constitution in effect today? Is the Constition to be defended? Who should defend it? Who has standing to contest such an offense against the Constitution?

The U.S. is much more populist than it is a Constitutional Republic. Can it be restored to glory? Or is it just to continue it's decline?
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      04-28-2011, 12:09 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
It was brought to this point by none other than Obama himself by not releasing the birth certificate 2-1/2 years ago, or any time up to now. Why would he spend millions on legal defense to not release it?

First off, way to take personal responsibility!!

The failure of some people to accept perfectly valid legal documents is not the fault of the person who released that document 2-1/2 years ago! Your failure to accept the original and valid document released years ago is your failure, nobody else's.

Next take personal responsibility to accept this certificate of live birth you demanded, and take personal responsibility that you don't go off on yet another crazy conspiracy theory. You alone have the ablility to restrain yourself from repeating yourself, nobody can do that for you.




Second off, do you know that the claim that Obama spent 2 million dollars in legal defense has been debunked also? What did I just say about taking personal responsibility to restraining yourself from fabricating more crazy conspiracies?
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      04-28-2011, 12:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
No... it is just being tried in the court of public opinion. The facts are so very slowly emerging. It appears that at least one thing is established: We have a COLB long form that took 2-1/2 years to get. If the document is authentic, then it is time to move to the next step. Was Stanley Ann Dunham at the time of birth qualified to establish Natural Born citizen status for her newborn son? I don't have the answer in front of me... nor is it an easy answer to come by. I don't know that I have seen the information that would be needed to draw a conclusion.

The definition of Natural Born citizen has changed somewhat at times. And certainly the general populace has not taken seriously the Constitutional pre-requisites to hold the highest office. It seems this question is both about what was the original intent in the writing of the Constitution, and then the question, is the Constitution in effect today? Is the Constition to be defended? Who should defend it? Who has standing to contest such an offense against the Constitution?

The U.S. is much more populist than it is a Constitutional Republic. Can it be restored to glory? Or is it just to continue it's decline?

Just stop.
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      04-28-2011, 07:35 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
First off, way to take personal responsibility!!
I don't take responsibility. That claim was made by Donald Trump.
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The failure of some people to accept perfectly valid legal documents is not the fault of the person who released that document 2-1/2 years ago! Your failure to accept the original and valid document released years ago is your failure, nobody else's.
The original document wan't released until yesterday. Those short form documents can be changed legally and very easily from what is shown on the original long form. The department of state does not view it equally to the long form when you are applying for a passport. Why should anyone view it equally for someone who seeks the highest public office in the nation?
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Next take personal responsibility to accept this certificate of live birth you demanded, and take personal responsibility that you don't go off on yet another crazy conspiracy theory. You alone have the ablility to restrain yourself from repeating yourself, nobody can do that for you.
The only conspiracy theory that I hold here is that the press largely has conspired to follow Obama and shelter him from scrutiny.

I am not going to pursue this issue personally other than as a consumer looking critically at the official stance, and to occasionally comment on what I see.
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Second off, do you know that the claim that Obama spent 2 million dollars in legal defense has been debunked also? What did I just say about taking personal responsibility to restraining yourself from fabricating more crazy conspiracies?
I haven't seen the debunking. If it comes from the liberal organizations snopes or factcheck, then that is not sufficient. It is only one side of the story. Do you research every aspect of this story? How about what is it that denotes Natural Born citizen?
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      04-28-2011, 08:36 AM   #93
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I guess I really don't understand the logic behind caring about this one issue so much. It's a courtroom tactic to plant that seed of doubt and watch that issue grow and overshadow other issues but it is done to deflect and distract from the real facts. There isn't a shred of hard evidence that points to him being born outside of the US and all the evidence that any citizen has of being born in the US. I have only a certificate of live birth that states that I was born in Bronxville, NY. Why would anyone demand more? Those who want to believe that he was not born in the US will not have their minds changed by any further evidence because they already believe that the government is manufacturing these documents. That's the beauty of conspiracy theorists - they write off factual evidence as fraud to perpetuate the thought that there is an underlying evil. There comes a time when you have to let it go and face the facts. It doesn't make the rest of us naive, it makes us sensible.
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      04-28-2011, 08:45 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
That's what I get for listening to Michael Savage for a few minutes...Doh! But there are people who will not drop it.

It was brought to this point by none other than Obama himself by not releasing the birth certificate 2-1/2 years ago, or any time up to now. Why would he spend millions on legal defense to not release it? As I have said on occassion in some words: It was to be able to use a complicit press to marginalize those who would question his eligibility. He stretched for 2-1/2 years a distraction from other issues unrelated to eligibility, and also issues directly related to it.

As I said a couple posts back - I am glad that he released it and that it is past this step. And yes, the long form does say Certificate of Live Birth. I took mine out of the safe and checked. I also checked the two copies that I have of the short form COLB. Both have errors. The one that matches the data in the long form certificate has more wrong information than the other, because whomever typed up the original, entered wrong information. It's surprising how easy it is for these people to screw up birth records.

I was born less than one year after Obama. Having seen these unintended errors in my own short forms (mother's first name, mother's maiden name, father's place of birth, father's age) and how easy it was to get a "corrected" certificate by making a short written request in 1996, made it obvious from the start that Obama's short form was proof of nothing.

The long form is as good as we are going to get, yet it doesn't have any interesting info that he should have been motivated to hide.

The discussion of what constitutes Natural Born citizen could be interesting if there were an honest examination of the original intent, and subsequent statutes and judgements that dealt with it.
Hey dude, he did release it 2.5 years ago. Would you please stop lying.
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      04-28-2011, 08:49 AM   #95
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The "legal fees" were not specifically for the birth cert issue. All presidents and candidates have had millions in legal fees. It's a common expense for a public figure. Does that mean they were also trying to cover up where they were born?
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      04-28-2011, 01:40 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I haven't seen the debunking. If it comes from the liberal organizations snopes or factcheck, then that is not sufficient. It is only one side of the story.
This makes you officially ineligible for rational discussion. The only thing "liberal" about these sites is that they are often debunking spurious propaganda from the far right. These sites don't choose who the nuts are.

You don't seem to understand that Obama legally met the requirements of eligibility for the office back when he became a candidate. No other documentation or evidence has ever been required, so the only people who have been waiting for 2 1/2 years are those who don't officially matter.

Did you vote for McCain, knowing only that he was born in Panama? Or does he just "look" American to you?
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      04-28-2011, 06:21 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Hey dude, he did release it 2.5 years ago. Would you please stop lying.
Enlighten me. Show me where Obama released the long form birth certificate 2-1/2 years ago. Until yesterday, the only long form copy that was public was one from Kenya that likely was a fake.
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      04-28-2011, 06:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Enlighten me. Show me where Obama released the long form birth certificate 2-1/2 years ago. Until yesterday, the only long form copy that was public was one from Kenya that likely was a fake.
Here is the form the State of Hawaii gives to it's citizens when asked for a copy of their birth certificate. A similar thing happens in California. You don't get your actual original document, you get a certified copy from the state.



You not wanting to believe this document is proof that you aren't going to believe ANYTHING that is put in front of you, in regards to this issue.
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      04-28-2011, 06:39 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
This makes you officially ineligible for rational discussion. The only thing "liberal" about these sites is that they are often debunking spurious propaganda from the far right. These sites don't choose who the nuts are.
If you rely upon these two liberal websites for detailed and objective analysis, then you are ignoring far too much evidence. They are worth a look only to see what their surface and biased view will have to say. Though they lean liberal, they are not exempt from errpr that does not support their bias. One example: They erred to the extreme in their analysis of John McCain's birth information. But that is a discussion for a differnt thread.
Quote:
You don't seem to understand that Obama legally met the requirements of eligibility for the office back when he became a candidate. No other documentation or evidence has ever been required, so the only people who have been waiting for 2 1/2 years are those who don't officially matter.
You are too quick to take a liar at his word. Obama is a serial liar - perhaps even pathological. Everything about the guy should be questioned. You entirely discount the evidence that was readily available that Obama may not have been born in Hawaii. And totally ignore the more weighty questions about the nature of his citizenship. What constitutes Natural Born citizen? What is your support for your argument?
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Did you vote for McCain, knowing only that he was born in Panama? Or does he just "look" American to you?
Why do you assume that I voted for McCain? I most certainly did not. Have I in any way ever given any indication that I voted for, or supported McCain in anything? For the record: I strongly opposed/still oppose McCain.
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      04-28-2011, 06:54 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Here is the form the State of Hawaii gives to it's citizens when asked for a copy of their birth certificate. A similar thing happens in California. You don't get your actual original document, you get a certified copy from the state.



You not wanting to believe this document is proof that you aren't going to believe ANYTHING that is put in front of you, in regards to this issue.
How did Obama get a copy now? It is obvious that he could have gotten it at any time, but chose to extend the argument for 2-1/2 years! Do you ignore the opposing argument? I had posted a link to this before:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=285921

Does Hawaii ever release long-form birth certificates?
Ex-official says Obama's document is in file cabinet at Department of Health
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      04-28-2011, 07:02 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
How did Obama get a copy now? It is obvious that he could have gotten it at any time, but chose to extend the argument for 2-1/2 years! Do you ignore the opposing argument? I had posted a link to this before:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=285921

Does Hawaii ever release long-form birth certificates?
Ex-official says Obama's document is in file cabinet at Department of Health


Maybe you should quit getting your information from World Nut Daily.

The document that Obama released 2-1/2 years ago has always been a legal and official proof of birth. It is now, it was 2-1/2 years ago. But don't believe me, believe Hawaii's own laws. Hawaii State Statute 338-13 specifies that what Obama presented 2-1/2 years ago is "considered FOR ALL purposes the SAME as the original":


338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

(c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, 17; RL 1955, 57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; HRS 338-13; am L 1978, c 49, 1]


Or do you think that World Nut Daily is more an authority on Hawaii laws than Hawaiian laws themselves?

You are over. You are done. You are baked. Just stop.
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      04-28-2011, 07:08 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
How did Obama get a copy now? It is obvious that he could have gotten it at any time, but chose to extend the argument for 2-1/2 years! Do you ignore the opposing argument? I had posted a link to this before:
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=285921

Does Hawaii ever release long-form birth certificates?
Ex-official says Obama's document is in file cabinet at Department of Health
When you went to get a driver's license or a passport, what kind of proof of identity did you show? Did you show your actual birth certificate, or a certified copy? In my state you don't get your original birth certificate, the state keeps that. And, apparently so does Hawaii.

Go ahead and keep on getting your panties in a bunch, as you are getting upset about a fallacy. It sure would be a bummer going thru life all pissed off about something that actually didn't happen.
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      04-28-2011, 07:36 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Maybe you should quit getting your information from World Nut Daily.

The document that Obama released 2-1/2 years ago has always been a legal and official proof of birth. It is now, it was 2-1/2 years ago. But don't believe me, believe Hawaii's own laws. Hawaii State Statute 338-13 specifies that what Obama presented 2-1/2 years ago is "considered FOR ALL purposes the SAME as the original":


338-13 Certified copies. (a) Subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18, the department of health shall, upon request, furnish to any applicant a certified copy of any certificate, or the contents of any certificate, or any part thereof.

(b) Copies of the contents of any certificate on file in the department, certified by the department shall be considered for all purposes the same as the original, subject to the requirements of sections 338-16, 338-17, and 338-18.

(c) Copies may be made by photography, dry copy reproduction, typing, computer printout or other process approved by the director of health. [L 1949, c 327, 17; RL 1955, 57-16; am L Sp 1959 2d, c 1, 19; HRS 338-13; am L 1978, c 49, 1]


Or do you think that World Nut Daily is more an authority on Hawaii laws than Hawaiian laws themselves?

You are over. You are done. You are baked. Just stop.
You obviously don't want to look at anthing that disagrees with your bias. The fact is that Obama could have had this settled 2-1/2 years ago in regard to producing the long form certificate. I think he strung it along this far because he wanted to prevent the next step, which is far more important: Does he qualify as a Natural Born citizen? A simple yes or no is an insufficient answer. Those who have the resources and time to to do so could perhaps enlighten us all. But the press will ignore anything they can get away with hiding because it doesn't fit the story they decided to perpetuate years ago.

Though I have asked for Obama to produce the long form certificate, that was to see why he might be hiding it. The larger question always was: Is Obama a Natural Born citizen? The location of his birth is one piece of that. Just one.
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      04-28-2011, 07:42 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
When you went to get a driver's license or a passport, what kind of proof of identity did you show? Did you show your actual birth certificate, or a certified copy? In my state you don't get your original birth certificate, the state keeps that. And, apparently so does Hawaii.

Go ahead and keep on getting your panties in a bunch, as you are getting upset about a fallacy. It sure would be a bummer going thru life all pissed off about something that actually didn't happen.
When I got my passport, I was going to present my short form COLB. But it had wrong data in it. I found my long form certificate which I would have used, but it had the same incorrect information. It had a differnet information for my mothers first name, her maiden name, my father's age, and my father's place of birth. So, I had my mother mail them corrected information. Then they sent a corrected COLB short form which I used for my passport application.

Birth records can be full of errors, and short form certificates can easily be "corrected" to show different information.
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      04-28-2011, 08:49 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
You obviously don't want to look at anthing that disagrees with your bias. The fact is that Obama could have had this settled 2-1/2 years ago in regard to producing the long form certificate. I think he strung it along this far because he wanted to prevent the next step, which is far more important: Does he qualify as a Natural Born citizen? A simple yes or no is an insufficient answer. Those who have the resources and time to to do so could perhaps enlighten us all. But the press will ignore anything they can get away with hiding because it doesn't fit the story they decided to perpetuate years ago.

Though I have asked for Obama to produce the long form certificate, that was to see why he might be hiding it. The larger question always was: Is Obama a Natural Born citizen? The location of his birth is one piece of that. Just one.
You are right. I won't even consider anything that lies about what Hawaii law says, when I can look right at the clear words of Hawaii law and see that your sources are full of bullshit. Why do you choose to believe World Nut Daily over actual Hawaii law?

Your problem is that you were sent on a Snipe Hunt, and now that you've been on a Snipe Hunt for two and a half years, your childish pride is forcing you to claim you really did catch a Snipe! You were told there were two different documents, a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a completely different document titled "Birth Certificate". You were lied to and told that only the document that mattered was the one titled "Birth Certificate". Scammed. Suckered. Bamboozled.

The law is clear. There is only one document. It is entitled "Certificate of Live Birth". There is no "Birth Certificate" in Hawaii. The Hawaii law I just posted makes it clear. Hawaii can provide copies of this one document in two different ways. Hawaii's prefered way is a certified computer printout, authorized under 338-13 (c). Hawaii can also provide a certified photocopy. Either way, BOTH are copies of the original. BOTH are equally valid copies of the original under Hawaii law.

I refuse to consider any source of information that is in direct contradiction of the clear words of Hawaii law. You should take personal responsibility to do the same, instead of spreading crap that directly contradicts Hawaii law.

Everyone who told you different sent you on a Snipe Hunt, and now they've sent you out for Blinker Fluid. I'm not stupid enough to go on a search for Blinker Fluid, you are on your own.

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      04-28-2011, 08:51 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
When I got my passport, I was going to present my short form COLB. But it had wrong data in it. I found my long form certificate which I would have used, but it had the same incorrect information. It had a differnet information for my mothers first name, her maiden name, my father's age, and my father's place of birth. So, I had my mother mail them corrected information. Then they sent a corrected COLB short form which I used for my passport application.

Birth records can be full of errors, and short form certificates can easily be "corrected" to show different information.
There weren't any corrections between Obama's long form and short form. That means the short form has been valid and accurate this whole time.

Nobody cares about your birth certificate.
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      04-28-2011, 09:05 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
You are right. I won't even consider anything that lies about what Hawaii law says, when I can look right at the clear words of Hawaii law and see that your sources are full of bullshit. Why do you choose to believe World Nut Daily over actual Hawaii law?

Your problem is that you were sent on a Snipe Hunt, and now that you've been on a Snipe Hunt for two and a half years, your childish pride is forcing you to claim you really did catch a Snipe! You were told there were two different documents, a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a completely different document titled "Birth Certificate". You were lied to and told that only the document that mattered was the one titled "Birth Certificate". Scammed. Suckered. Bamboozled.

The law is clear. There is only one document. It is entitled "Certificate of Live Birth". There is no "Birth Certificate" in Hawaii. The Hawaii law I just posted makes it clear. Hawaii can provide copies of this one document in two different ways. Hawaii's prefered way is a certified computer printout, authorized under 338-13 (c). Hawaii can also provide a certified photocopy. Either way, BOTH are copies of the original. BOTH are equally valid copies of the original under Hawaii law.

I refuse to consider and source of information that is in direct contradiction of the clear words of Hawaii law. You should take personal responsibility to do the same, instead of spreading crap that directly contradicts Hawaii law.

Everyone who told you different sent you on a Snipe Hunt, and now they've sent you out for Blinker Fluid. I'm not stupid enough to go on a search for Blinker Fluid, you are on your own.
It's plain that anything would have satisfied you if it came from Obamas lips. The true fact, proven yesterday, is that Obama could get a copy of the birth certificate. Even the state department regards a long form differently than a short form. And the real question is, as it exists in the U.S. Constitution,

"What constitutes natural born Citizen?"


This is the question. As far as I am concerned, I am satisfied with the presentation of the birth certificate as sufficient evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, especially taken with corroborating evidence. So let's move on to the U.S. Constitution. Can we agree that it is time to move past the certificate? If so, especially since you want to refer to law, what is your legal argument regarding natural born Citizen?
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      04-28-2011, 09:10 PM   #108
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It's plain that anything would have satisfied you if it came from Obamas lips. The true fact, proven yesterday, is that Obama could get a copy of the birth certificate. Even the state department regards a long form differently than a short form. And the real question is, as it exists in the U.S. Constitution,

"What constitutes natural born Citizen?"


This is the question. As far as I am concerned, I am satisfied with the presentation of the birth certificate as sufficient evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, especially taken with corroborating evidence. So let's move on to the U.S. Constitution. Can we agree that it is time to move past the certificate? If so, especially since you want to refer to law, what is your legal argument regarding natural born Citizen?

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      04-28-2011, 09:11 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
There weren't any corrections between Obama's long form and short form. That means the short form has been valid and accurate this whole time.
I am fine with that. And glad it was shown after all this time.
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Nobody cares about your birth certificate.
Was it you? Or was it somebody else who asked about what form I used to get my passport? So, obviously, somebody cared enough to ask. I obliged with my personal information.

It also illustrates why, from my perspective, it was reasonable to ask to see the long form original. The short form COLB could have had different "corrected" data than found in the long form.

Do you think it was best for Obama to string this out for 2-1/2 years? Are you satisfied that it was ultimately revealed? If you are not happy about it, the why not? If you are happy about it, then we have found agreement.
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      04-28-2011, 09:13 PM   #110
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scottwww go away. such a troll
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