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      09-08-2009, 01:06 PM   #23
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The only difference is between a naturalized citizen and a natural born citizen. All those trying to find some sort of distinction between natural born, citizen at birth, or anything else are peddling nonsense.

The framers were concerned that some future foreign leader would convince or pressure Congress to grant him or one of his relatives or subordinates citizenship and so they could serve as president.
Have you read any of the debate in the first continental congress regarding Senators and Representatives? By extension to the wording they used in the Constitution for the president, you appear to be jumping to an erroneous conclusion.
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      09-08-2009, 01:13 PM   #24
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Have you read any of the debate in the first continental congress regarding Senators and Representatives? By extension to the wording they used in the Constitution for the president, you appear to be jumping to an erroneous conclusion.
The first Continental Congress met in 1774. What could they possibly have said regarding senators and representatives? The House and the Senate were still a decade + in the future.
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      09-08-2009, 01:18 PM   #25
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Who cares where he was born, lol.
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      09-08-2009, 01:38 PM   #26
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The first Continental Congress met in 1774. What could they possibly have said regarding senators and representatives? The House and the Senate were still a decade + in the future.
Yes. You are correct. Pardon my error. It has been over a year since I have read them. It was the 1st Congress, not the first Continental Congress. Here is one resource (not as good as the one I used at the time I was studying it) but looks like it has the information. I don't have enough time fo find better links right now. I also had checked out the volumes at the library and taken them home.
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      09-08-2009, 03:25 PM   #27
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Here is a not-quite comprehensive compilation of information on natural born Citizen assembled by Steven Wittlake. Some additional details are found here.
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      09-08-2009, 03:38 PM   #28
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I heard Obama was actually born in Saudi Arabia and then moved to Kenya before coming to the U.S. where he held terrorist camps on the upper east side of of NYC. A perfect recruitment and training ground for espiring terrorists because of its proximity to central park. Supposedly Obama only spent 2 years in hawaii after getting kicked out of elementary school for having a deep seated hatred for white people. Records show that Obama's mother was actually from Iran and paid the U.S. State department an undisclosed amount of money to grant them both citizenship. Obama thought he was slick by starting the southern california fires in hopes that it would burn down a federal building that held copies of these records.

If it wasn't for fox news, these facts wouldn't come to light.
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      09-08-2009, 03:48 PM   #29
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I heard Obama was actually born in Saudi Arabia and then moved to Kenya before coming to the U.S. where he held terrorist camps on the upper east side of of NYC. A perfect recruitment and training ground for espiring terrorists because of its proximity to central park. Supposedly Obama only spent 2 years in hawaii after getting kicked out of elementary school for having a deep seated hatred for white people. Records show that Obama's mother was actually from Iran and paid the U.S. State department an undisclosed amount of money to grant them both citizenship. Obama thought he was slick by starting the southern california fires in hopes that it would burn down a federal building that held copies of these records.

If it wasn't for fox news, these facts wouldn't come to light.
Correction.... Obama paid someone to start the So cal fires to take the public eyes away from how many vacations he has taken since he has started his presidency.
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      09-08-2009, 04:09 PM   #30
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Here is a not-quite comprehensive compilation of information on natural born Citizen assembled by Steven Wittlake. Some additional details are found here.
I honestly have no desire to go around with you on this subject. I did so with Septro in an earlier thread. The issue is settled. The two bodies constitutionally empowered to decide the matter have. Obama is president and all this crap is pointless and allows him to brush anyone who opposes him as a nut case birther. I refuse to play.
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      09-08-2009, 05:04 PM   #31
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I honestly have no desire to go around with you on this subject. I did so with Septro in an earlier thread. The issue is settled. The two bodies constitutionally empowered to decide the matter have. Obama is president and all this crap is pointless and allows him to brush anyone who opposes him as a nut case birther. I refuse to play.
No problem. I burned out on the natural born Citizen argument a year ago in regard to John McCain. As for me, I am open to some discussion about Obama's case, but not in any detail as I did with McCain. It's just not worth it. The judges keep coming up with the ruling that noone has standing for the lawsuit, without making a ruling on what is a natural born Citizen, and whether the defendant is one or not.

However, there are probably some who would not have argued a year ago who would today. I look forward to reading comments and interjecting a few.
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      09-08-2009, 06:17 PM   #32
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I dont understand what the issue is. Show the birth certificate and passport stuff or college records, you know, all the stuff that all the other presidents and candidates have shown and end the confusion.

Ignoring the "birthers" are one thing, but to spend millions with lots of law firms to try and keep these records sealed is extremely suspicious. As the representative of this country, our elected official who was not forced to be president, he should be required to make all the details of his life public. He is suppose to protect us and help us, but we cant know any details about his life. Are you kidding me?

Im not a republican, democrat, or politician. Im a constitutionalist. I want my rights, and I want my leaders known.
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      09-08-2009, 06:21 PM   #33
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I dont understand what the issue is. Show the birth certificate and passport stuff or college records, you know, all the stuff that all the other presidents and candidate have shown and end the confusion.

Ignoring the "birthers" are one thing, but to spend millions with lots of law firms to try and keep these records sealed is extremely suspicious. As the representative of this country, our elected official who was not forced to be president, he should be required to make all the details of his life public. He is suppose to protect us and help us, but we cant know any details about his life. Are you kidding me?

Im not a republican, democrat, or politician. Im a constitutionalist. I want my rights, and I want my leaders known.
I totally agree.

I'm a constitutionalist, too and a member of the Constitution Party.
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      09-08-2009, 08:04 PM   #34
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Well from reading the results of todays trial, theres gonna be another trial in oct and jan to determine if obama is eligible. This should get interesting. Im sure it will become a race issue or something like that even moreso that it already is.

If we dont follow the constitution then we are not a country. No laws apply and it is anarchy. Political correctness should not be allowed to change the foundation of this country. Guns are legal, my speech is free, and the president has to born a citizen of this country. Race and politics dont matter, your either born here or not.

Why isnt the president forced to have to prove his constitutional requirements? You have to prove it for your kids little league, but not to run a country? lol.
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      09-08-2009, 09:04 PM   #35
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Well from reading the results of todays trial, theres gonna be another trial in oct and jan to determine if obama is eligible. This should get interesting. Im sure it will become a race issue or something like that even moreso that it already is.

If we dont follow the constitution then we are not a country. No laws apply and it is anarchy. Political correctness should not be allowed to change the foundation of this country. Guns are legal, my speech is free, and the president has to born a citizen of this country. Race and politics dont matter, your either born here or not.

Why isnt the president forced to have to prove his constitutional requirements? You have to prove it for your kids little league, but not to run a country? lol.

What amazes me is how someone who claims to be a 'constitutionalist' believes the courts have any role in this. This is a political issue, properly settled by political bodies. The president DID present evidence that he met the required qualifications and the bodies empowered to evaluate that evidence determined he did meet them. The courts are not empowered to second guess those political bodies with regard to this political issue. Arguing they do puts you outside the Constitution.
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      09-08-2009, 09:33 PM   #36
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What amazes me is how someone who claims to be a 'constitutionalist' believes the courts have any role in this. This is a political issue, properly settled by political bodies. The president DID present evidence that he met the required qualifications and the bodies empowered to evaluate that evidence determined he did meet them. The courts are not empowered to second guess those political bodies with regard to this political issue. Arguing they do puts you outside the Constitution.
Please show me the facts. Show me where obama proved his eligibility. Who saw the records? When did he show them? Do not mistake me for a couch politician. Until bush I wasnt involved in politics at all. Only after seeing how much damage the whole republican/democrat personal agendas can cause, I became involved.

And I dont have much experience at all. I only know what I have seen and I havent seen a birth certificate or passport explanation for his trip to pakistan. I just want my right upheld by the proper people. No agendas, no lies, just freedom which doesnt encroach upon anyone elses.

And I have no idea whether its the courts job or not. Somebody needs to police the politicians. Its not like us citizens have any power over the big government, lol. If obama was lying, whos gonna stop him. Me, you, some random senator thats too scared to do anything? Seriously, there is no one that does anything. If the courts have to do it, then so be it. I have no political agenda. I just want the proper freedoms for everyone.
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      09-08-2009, 09:56 PM   #37
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Please show me the facts. Show me where obama proved his eligibility. Who saw the records? When did he show them? Do not mistake me for a couch politician. Until bush I wasnt involved in politics at all. Only after seeing how much damage the whole republican/democrat personal agendas can cause, I became involved.

And I dont have much experience at all. I only know what I have seen and I havent seen a birth certificate or passport explanation for his trip to pakistan. I just want my right upheld by the proper people. No agendas, no lies, just freedom which doesnt encroach upon anyone elses.

And I have no idea whether its the courts job or not. Somebody needs to police the politicians. Its not like us citizens have any power over the big government, lol. If obama was lying, whos gonna stop him. Me, you, some random senator thats too scared to do anything? Seriously, there is no one that does anything. If the courts have to do it, then so be it. I have no political agenda. I just want the proper freedoms for everyone.
The FACT is that the people of this country evaluated the evidence and determined that he was qualified. The Electoral College and the Congress concurred. It is OUR job to police the politicians. If we can no longer do so, this great experiment in self government has failed.
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      09-08-2009, 10:02 PM   #38
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The FACT is that the people of this country evaluated the evidence and determined that he was qualified. The Electoral College and the Congress concurred. It is OUR job to police the politicians. If we can no longer do so, this great experiment in self government has failed.
If the people of this country determined that he was qualified, then why is there lawsuits going on? I did not determine anything because I am restricted from seeing the records. Who in congress or the electoral college or citizens have seen these records? When have the people of this country which includes me, evaluated the evidence.

Please show me the evidence so that I may evaluate it. Post a link to the evidence that was submitted to the people and congress to prove he is eligible. And the fact that we have to have this conversation means that somebody screwed up somewhere regardless of which side its on. Thanks.
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      09-08-2009, 10:06 PM   #39
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The FACT is that the people of this country evaluated the evidence and determined that he was qualified. The Electoral College and the Congress concurred. It is OUR job to police the politicians. If we can no longer do so, this great experiment in self government has failed.
Much of the problem is that our elected leaders are untrustworthy. The public is blinded in the headlights of the media. The courts are a sham. The people have been dumbed down. The immense quantity of law and legislation has made law and government incomprehensible.

With good reason some founding fathers doubted democracy in our Republic. The results speak for themselves.

What we have is American Idol for the voter.
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      09-08-2009, 10:06 PM   #40
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If the people of this country determined that he was qualified, then why is there lawsuits going on? I did not determine anything because I am restricted from seeing the records. Who in congress or the electoral college or citizens have seen these records? When have the people of this country which includes me, evaluated the evidence.

Please show me the evidence so that I may evaluate it. Post a link to the evidence that was submitted to the people and congress to prove he is eligible. And the fact that we have to have this conversation means that somebody screwed up somewhere regardless of which side its on. Thanks.
The people evaluated the evidence on election day.

The matter is closed.

No court can do anything about it.
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      09-08-2009, 10:13 PM   #41
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The people evaluated the evidence on election day.

The matter is closed.

No court can do anything about it.
If the matter were to become a grave concern of the people (such as the people made it plain they were not going to re-elect the status quo politicians, and/or the public were to actively protest), if not Congress, then at least the Court would hear the case.

You seem to be a fatalist.
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      09-08-2009, 10:14 PM   #42
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The people evaluated the evidence on election day.

The matter is closed.

No court can do anything about it.
What?! Thats the evidence, lol. Come on now. Case not closed man. Presidents can be impeached, are you serious? A public voting when they dont have all the facts is not right.

See my point stands. There is no evidence presented to the citizens of this country that obama is legitimate. Election results are not evidence or proof.
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      09-08-2009, 10:18 PM   #43
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What?! Thats the evidence, lol. Come on now. Case not closed man. Presidents can be impeached, are you serious? A public voting when they dont have all the facts is not right.

See my point stands. There is no evidence presented to the citizens of this country that obama is legitimate. Election results are not evidence or proof.
That is how the system works. He presented himself as a candidate. When someone questioned his citizenship he produced a legal document from the State of Hawaii attesting to his birth there. The people evaluated what he presented and made their decision.

Of course a president can be impeached but this Congress is NOT going to do that. Nor will any future Congress.
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      09-08-2009, 10:20 PM   #44
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If the matter were to become a grave concern of the people (such as the people made it plain they were not going to re-elect the status quo politicians, and/or the public were to actively protest), if not Congress, then at least the Court would hear the case.

You seem to be a fatalist.
What do think a court could do? Remove him from office? Sorry but that is a job the Constitution gives ONLY to the Senate.
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