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      10-21-2009, 06:40 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Has anyone done a comparison of the long-term (4-5 years) operation costs of the APR, PF, Brembo, and StopTech systems--assuming regular track use? Obviously, lots of driver and usage related variables there, but this would be a relevant thing to consider.
I've tried to get cost info on replacement parts for the APR system but never recieved anything back yet. I would like to know this as well.

I researched this for my E46 and there is a large disparity for long-term costs between different brands. I chose the UUC/wilwood kit because it uses relatively inexpensive OEM rotors.

The data that I collected told me that pad costs are similar, the rotors make the biggest difference in cost.
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      10-21-2009, 08:03 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
The data that I collected told me that pad costs are similar, the rotors make the biggest difference in cost.
Makes sense. Another thing to consider is the service life of the caliper. I've heard that one might want to consider the possibility of wear at the pad-caliper interface. No idea if that is indeed an issue or not.

Can Chris from AP Racing comment on this as well?
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      10-21-2009, 08:18 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Has anyone done a comparison of the long-term (4-5 years) operation costs of the APR, PF, Brembo, and StopTech systems--assuming regular track use? Obviously, lots of driver and usage related variables there, but this would be a relevant thing to consider.
For the StopTechs, PFC 01/97 pads will run about $750 and new rotors are about $1100 for all four corners, so estimate $1850 or so for a full job. I'm running the standard StopTech pads right now, but I'll probably switch to something else when these are done. I'll keep you posted on how the pads wear and how fast they eat the rotors.
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      10-21-2009, 08:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
For the StopTechs, PFC 01/97 pads will run about $750 and new rotors are about $1100 for all four corners, so estimate $1850 or so for a full job. I'm running the standard StopTech pads right now, but I'll probably switch to something else when these are done. I'll keep you posted on how the pads wear and how fast they eat the rotors.
$1100 for 4 rotors is not bad at all.
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      10-21-2009, 08:22 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Can Chris from AP Racing comment on this as well?
I'm going to leave pricing questions to forum-supporting vendors that carry the line. Please check with EAS (European Auto Source), RennSpec, **********s and others. You may wish to call or PM their reps.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm here mainly for the tech side of things and the fact I've been a bit partial to M's since my first E28 M5, so not much else will do. I have an appreciation for many of the finer vehicles (the new Lotus Evora has me a little distracted these days), but only an M is an M!

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      10-21-2009, 08:28 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B View Post
I'm going to leave pricing questions to forum-supporting vendors that carry the line. Please check with EAS (European Auto Source), RennSpec, **********s and others. You may wish to call or PM their reps.

Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm here mainly for the tech side of things and the fact I've been a bit partial to M's since my first E28 M5, so not much else will do. I have an appreciation for many of the finer vehicles (the new Lotus Evora has me a little distracted these days), but only an M is an M!

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Fair enough, but can you say a bit about this potential wear issue at the pad-caliper interface. Fact or fiction? Does the caliper need to utilize a special sleeve or another design feature to reduce such wear if it is indeed an issue?
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      10-21-2009, 08:31 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Makes sense. Another thing to consider is the service life of the caliper. I've heard that one might want to consider the possibility of wear at the pad-caliper interface. No idea if that is indeed an issue or not.
This is rarely, if ever, an issue. In case it ever became one, the pad abutment plates are replaceable. I've seen issues occur after someone disassembles a caliper for powder coating or other paint process and did not remove/replace them properly (clue: they shouldn't be messed with!). One other time was after a collision. If I was making a list of possible service items over the next 10 years, this would probably be dead last.

Seals might need to be replaced from time to time, but that mostly depends on the temperatures they see. On the street, I would expect 8-10 years. On the track, well, that depends on temperature. You can apply temp strips to monitor max temps. Once 220C / 425F has been exceeded, a seal change is advised. Most track guys replace seals every spring as part of an annual maintenance program. Very few replace them more often.

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      10-21-2009, 08:33 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
For the StopTechs, PFC 01/97 pads will run about $750 and new rotors are about $1100 for all four corners, so estimate $1850 or so for a full job. I'm running the standard StopTech pads right now, but I'll probably switch to something else when these are done. I'll keep you posted on how the pads wear and how fast they eat the rotors.
Stoptech has always been more affordable to run.
A lot of guys were replacing their Brembo rotors with Stoptech parts when they needed to be replaced because it was much more affordable.

I want to know if anyone is running the Stoptech Trophy kit yet?
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      10-21-2009, 08:36 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B View Post
This is rarely, if ever, an issue. In case it ever became one, the pad abutment plates are replaceable. I've seen issues occur after someone disassembles a caliper for powder coating or other paint process and did not remove/replace them properly (clue: they shouldn't be messed with!). One other time was after a collision. If I was making a list of possible service items over the next 10 years, this would probably be dead last.

Seals might need to be replaced from time to time, but that mostly depends on the temperatures they see. On the street, I would expect 8-10 years. On the track, well, that depends on temperature. You can apply temp strips to monitor max temps. Once 220C / 425F has been exceeded, a seal change is advised. Most track guys replace seals every spring as part of an annual maintenance program. Very few replace them more often.

Chris
Thanks. I am aware of the servicing requirements of the seals. Not a big deal.

I was told that some caliper designs might not incorporate abutment plates, and therefore if there were to be any significant wear, you'd have to replace the entire caliper body. Just wondering if that was true. Clearly, that is not the case for APR calipers then.
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      10-21-2009, 08:48 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLud View Post
For the StopTechs, PFC 01/97 pads will run about $750 and new rotors are about $1100 for all four corners, so estimate $1850 or so for a full job. I'm running the standard StopTech pads right now, but I'll probably switch to something else when these are done. I'll keep you posted on how the pads wear and how fast they eat the rotors.
Which is why the Stop Techs were #1 on my list until I saw APR's kit which will work with the OEM 18's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Makes sense. Another thing to consider is the service life of the caliper. I've heard that one might want to consider the possibility of wear at the pad-caliper interface. No idea if that is indeed an issue or not.
1 more thing I didn't think of. Since AP Racing works with OEM 18s, you'd have to consider the price difference between 18" and 19" tires as a cost factor. If you go with Brembos for example you are likely paying a premium for the required 19" tires vrs using the APRs and buying 18" tires.
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      10-21-2009, 08:52 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
1 more thing I didn't think of. Since AP Racing works with OEM 18s, you'd have to consider the price difference between 18" and 19" tires as a cost factor. If you go with Brembos for example you are likely paying a premium for the required 19" tires vrs using the APRs and buying 18" tires.
I'm pretty sure Brembo makes a smaller kit that will fit 18" wheels.
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      10-21-2009, 09:37 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Which is why the Stop Techs were #1 on my list until I saw APR's kit which will work with the OEM 18's.



1 more thing I didn't think of. Since AP Racing works with OEM 18s, you'd have to consider the price difference between 18" and 19" tires as a cost factor. If you go with Brembos for example you are likely paying a premium for the required 19" tires vrs using the APRs and buying 18" tires.
Brembo makes a 365/345 kit that fits OEM 18s. 6 pot front and 4 pot rear, monoblock set up.

Regarding the APs, don't they only work with the non runflat OEM 18" wheels. I believe the run flat wheels need a spacer. The spokes are a little different apparently.
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      10-21-2009, 09:50 PM   #79
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Regarding the APs, don't they only work with the non runflat OEM 18" wheels. I believe the run flat wheels need a spacer. The spokes are a little different apparently.
The OP is running them with his 18" setup. Can't tell what kind of rims though.
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      10-21-2009, 09:55 PM   #80
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Quote:
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The OP is running them with his 18" setup. Can't tell what kind of rims though.
He is Canadian also, and here there is no TPMS law here. So I believe his OEM 18s would have more room, if he is running OEM 18s. OP is running 10mm spacer.

Here is what one of the vendors said about OEM 18" fitment. It was from wheels STO.

"We have been told by AP Engineers that the the AP Racing brakes were designed to fit on the OEM 18" wheels.

However, they just learned that the same design 18" OEM wheel has 2 different specs. the 18" built for the run flat tires have different internal design compared to the non-run flat 18" wheels.

The non-runflat wheels seem to clear the AP Racing bbk, but it is the runflat 18" OEM wheel that has spoke clearance issues.

we are continuously getting updates from AP. Will provide more information as we find them out."
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      10-21-2009, 10:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
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JAJ,

what do you think/know about PF BBK vs AP Racing ?
doba_s: Sorry - I was busy and missed your question!

I don't have any experience with the PF calipers and rotors. I've used their pads and they're great.

As for wheel fitment, the OEM 19's fit fine all around.

The OEM 18" rims come in two types - (North American Market Only) Style 219 that have room for the TPMS (not runflats - never runflats!) and (European Market Only) Style 260's that won't take the TPMS.

The Style 260 rims clear the AP Racing front brakes without a spacer.

Canada gets the Style 219's, the same as the USA (the good news is that we don't require TPMS).

I have a garage full of 18x8.5" Style 219's and I use a 10mm spacer at the front with them. Tischer can supply the Style 260 rims on special order if you want them. I didn't think it was worth the aggro.
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      10-21-2009, 10:47 PM   #82
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doba_s: Sorry - I was busy and missed your question!

I don't have any experience with the PF calipers and rotors. I've used their pads and they're great.

As for wheel fitment, the OEM 19's fit fine all around.

The OEM 18" rims come in two types - (North American Market Only) Style 219 that have room for the TPMS (not runflats - never runflats!) and (European Market Only) Style 260's that won't take the TPMS.

The Style 260 rims clear the AP Racing front brakes without a spacer.

Canada gets the Style 219's, the same as the USA (the good news is that we don't require TPMS).

I have a garage full of 18x8.5" Style 219's and I use a 10mm spacer at the front with them. Tischer can supply the Style 260 rims on special order if you want them. I didn't think it was worth the aggro.
Thanks for info regarding the OEM 18s.
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      10-21-2009, 10:49 PM   #83
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By the way, while I'm thinking about it, the very complete BMW Motorsport parts catalogs that are now available for the E90 320Si WTCC car and the MZ4 race car both specify AP Racing brakes (with PFC pads in front) for these two pure-race vehicles.
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      10-21-2009, 10:52 PM   #84
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By the way, while I'm thinking about it, the very complete BMW Motorsport parts catalogs that are now available for the E90 320Si WTCC car and the MZ4 race car both specify AP Racing brakes (with PFC pads in front) for these two pure-race vehicles.
Aren't european AP brakes different then the Stillen/AP kits we get in North American? The EU kits seem to be a bit more tricked out and are monoblocks.
I wonder if the catalogs spec the NA kits or the EU kits?
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      10-22-2009, 01:43 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
I'm pretty sure Brembo makes a smaller kit that will fit 18" wheels.
Didn't know that. Still, no removable bridge, no buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STALKER View Post
He is Canadian also, and here there is no TPMS law here. So I believe his OEM 18s would have more room, if he is running OEM 18s. OP is running 10mm spacer.

Here is what one of the vendors said about OEM 18" fitment. It was from wheels STO.

"We have been told by AP Engineers that the the AP Racing brakes were designed to fit on the OEM 18" wheels.

However, they just learned that the same design 18" OEM wheel has 2 different specs. the 18" built for the run flat tires have different internal design compared to the non-run flat 18" wheels.

The non-runflat wheels seem to clear the AP Racing bbk, but it is the runflat 18" OEM wheel that has spoke clearance issues.

we are continuously getting updates from AP. Will provide more information as we find them out."
So I guess US based cars would have to run a small spacer?
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      10-22-2009, 06:55 AM   #86
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Quote:
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Didn't know that. Still, no removable bridge, no buy.



So I guess US based cars would have to run a small spacer?
US and Canadian cars use style 219 wheels. Both will need spacer. It's style 260 that does not. Look back a few post and you will find more info about this from the OP.
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      10-22-2009, 11:05 AM   #87
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Quote:
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Aren't european AP brakes different then the Stillen/AP kits we get in North American? The EU kits seem to be a bit more tricked out and are monoblocks.
I wonder if the catalogs spec the NA kits or the EU kits?
The Stillen/AP kits and the Euro AP Formula brake kits are about 99% identical. They use the exactly the same calipers and strap-drive rotor assemblies in the front. The rears are a bit different, but are essentially two identical ways to skin the same cat. Making two minor tweaks (that actually negated each other as far as front/rear balance is concerned) allowed for better parts management and lower costs on the USA side of the pond.

By the way, going to a monoblock caliper would lessen the effectiveness of this brake system due to the reduced caliper stiffness. But at least it would cost more.

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      10-22-2009, 10:14 PM   #88
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Had my brakes installed today. Thought I'd post a few photos for those interested.
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