BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
European Auto Source
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-10-2009, 10:33 PM   #23
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
so you say you were getting fade and howling with the stock brakes + StopTech SS Lines + Castrol SRF Fluid + Pagid RS19's on all corners?


What pads are u running @ the track on the AP BBK?

Is ur AP BBK 4-pot or 6-pot?
The AP kit is 6 piston on the front, 4 on the rear.

The pads that come with the Brake Pro's kits are a special (made in the USA on the same production line Mintex uses for NASCAR pads) Mintex compound that works fine for the street with a 1300 degree F MOT for track use.
Appreciate 0
      09-10-2009, 10:40 PM   #24
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Thanks for the write up... and don't read 08M3's recent update on the Moton's. You may end up spending more money!!
I bought 08M3's factory rear rims three weeks ago when everyone else was crapping on his price in the for-sale forum. He and I exchanged some email on the Motons a while ago, and I pinged him a couple of days ago about the AP's. The AP Racing/Moton combo IS a winner, it'll just be a bit of time before they both show up on the same car. Neither product is inexpensive, but they're both really, really good.
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2009, 12:30 AM   #25
jml
Captain
jml's Avatar
18
Rep
995
Posts

Drives: E90M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure about the APs...I find it odd that no one knows the mechanical bias of the kit. Kinda important, at least to me.
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2009, 03:18 AM   #26
aus
Major General
United_States
133
Rep
7,547
Posts

Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I bought 08M3's factory rear rims three weeks ago when everyone else was crapping on his price in the for-sale forum. He and I exchanged some email on the Motons a while ago, and I pinged him a couple of days ago about the AP's. The AP Racing/Moton combo IS a winner, it'll just be a bit of time before they both show up on the same car. Neither product is inexpensive, but they're both really, really good.
So you bought them.
I was thinking about them, but I already bought his JIC Cross coils that he bought but did not install. I don't track enough to spend the $$$ on Moton's.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2009, 11:21 AM   #27
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jml View Post
I'm not sure about the APs...I find it odd that no one knows the mechanical bias of the kit. Kinda important, at least to me.
I'm not familiar with the term "mechanical bias" - what does it mean?
Appreciate 0
      09-11-2009, 12:16 PM   #28
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
117
Rep
8,034
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I'm not familiar with the term "mechanical bias" - what does it mean?
Maybe he is referring to F/R brake bias?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-12-2009, 01:33 AM   #29
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Maybe he is referring to F/R brake bias?
Ahhh. Got it. While all the brake mfr's say you can't read too much into piston sizes and rotor diameters, AP actually makes this data available so you can analyze their brake designs. Their main customers are mechanical engineers building race cars, so it's all part of the package when you work with AP.

The difference between the AP brakes and stock M3 brakes that I computed is small at both axles. Pad friction variations will swamp any differences in piston sizes and rotor diameters compared to stock.

If that's what the "mechanical bias" question is about, I did the analysis for myself and I was satisfied that there wouldn't be a significant difference. My experience bears that out.
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 03:20 PM   #30
dawgdog
Colonel
31
Rep
2,184
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3, 2010 GT3RS
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, Wa.

iTrader: (0)

"I don't have a PM from you, can you forward a copy to me? I'll need to know if you want slotted or x-drilled option as well.
__________________
Tom "

Could you explain the advantages/disadvantages of these two options? Thanks
__________________
2015 f80 M3, 2010 GT3RS
Appreciate 0
      09-13-2009, 05:18 PM   #31
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgdog View Post
"I don't have a PM from you, can you forward a copy to me? I'll need to know if you want slotted or x-drilled option as well.
__________________
Tom "

Could you explain the advantages/disadvantages of these two options? Thanks
My BBK's have always been slotted. The only drilled rotors I've ever owned are the stock M3 ones. That said, I've never had problems with either type of rotors.

The conventional wisdom is that if you're going to really work the brakes hard then slotted rotors are less likely to develop cracks than drilled rotors. Drilled rotors have a reputation for cracking under heavy use. Slotted don't.

If you're not tracking regularly I'd go with whatever you like the looks of. If you're taking it out on the track half a dozen times a year, I'd go with slots. That was my choice.
Appreciate 0
      09-14-2009, 12:28 PM   #32
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
tom @ eas's Avatar
United_States
538
Rep
11,355
Posts


Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (14)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [2.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
My BBK's have always been slotted. The only drilled rotors I've ever owned are the stock M3 ones. That said, I've never had problems with either type of rotors.

The conventional wisdom is that if you're going to really work the brakes hard then slotted rotors are less likely to develop cracks than drilled rotors. Drilled rotors have a reputation for cracking under heavy use. Slotted don't.

If you're not tracking regularly I'd go with whatever you like the looks of. If you're taking it out on the track half a dozen times a year, I'd go with slots. That was my choice.
Pretty much sums it up right there. Go slotted if track use if in your near future.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com web: www.europeanautosource.com tel 866.669.0705 ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG FACEBOOK YOUTUBE FLICKR INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2009, 12:37 PM   #33
AP Racing - Chris_B
Brake Maven
AP Racing - Chris_B's Avatar
United_States
2
Rep
229
Posts

Drives: E34 540i/6, others
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
Ahhh. Got it. While all the brake mfr's say you can't read too much into piston sizes and rotor diameters, AP actually makes this data available so you can analyze their brake designs. Their main customers are mechanical engineers building race cars, so it's all part of the package when you work with AP.
It's likely the biggest reason manufacturers don't like to release this information is that it gives the copy-cat companies with small R&D budgets the same information that was discovered with experience, calculations and testing. These all cost money and no one likes to give it away.

That said, there are so many large-magnitude differences between the top-level equipment and the cheap-o stuff that balance is the least of the concerns (if it is approximately correct). Even if they get the balance correct, they are still a long way from providing a complete solution that will withstand the intended use. Well, outside of show vehicles at least!

One also has to keep in mind that perfect balance on one M3 with a particular driver may not be the absolute optimum for a different M3 with another driver that has been lowered with different tires, spring rates, shock settings, etc. The trick is to find a balance that is in the range of a variety of conditions. This is why there are brake balance adjusters installed in racing cars (but I wouldn't recommend them for street vehicles!). The balance is adjusted as the fuel load changes or as track conditions change.

Chris
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2009, 07:58 PM   #34
STALKER
Brigadier General
52
Rep
3,720
Posts

Drives: 997.2 GT3, Golf R
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, ON

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I bought 08M3's factory rear rims three weeks ago when everyone else was crapping on his price in the for-sale forum. He and I exchanged some email on the Motons a while ago, and I pinged him a couple of days ago about the AP's. The AP Racing/Moton combo IS a winner, it'll just be a bit of time before they both show up on the same car. Neither product is inexpensive, but they're both really, really good.
I got his Motons. WOOHOOO!!!!!

Congrats on the BBK, great choice.
Im still on the fence if I want to go AP or Brembo. I used Brembo for my other cars in the past.
__________________

2013 991 C4S-SOLD
2012 Golf R
2010 GT3
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2009, 11:11 PM   #35
aus
Major General
United_States
133
Rep
7,547
Posts

Drives: Odysse
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Seal Beach, CA

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STALKER View Post
I got his Motons. WOOHOOO!!!!!

Congrats on the BBK, great choice.
Im still on the fence if I want to go AP or Brembo. I used Brembo for my other cars in the past.
Doesn't he still have the Moton's? I'm now confused.
__________________
Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
Appreciate 0
      09-21-2009, 11:13 PM   #36
STALKER
Brigadier General
52
Rep
3,720
Posts

Drives: 997.2 GT3, Golf R
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, ON

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Doesn't he still have the Moton's? I'm now confused.
Long story, he got his hands on another set from a local owner. Can't wait to get them installed.
__________________

2013 991 C4S-SOLD
2012 Golf R
2010 GT3
Appreciate 0
      09-26-2009, 01:25 PM   #37
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Remember when I said this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
You don't hear much about AP Racing in the aftermarket ... If you check the www.APRacing.com website Monday after a Formula 1 race, they post congratulations to the podium teams with AP Racing parts (they make brakes and clutches). Often it's three for three.
Well, here's a news item that I copied from the AP Racing website this morning:
Formula One:

At the 2009 Italian Grand Prix in Monza, AP Racing's domination of supplying Brakes and/or Clutches to Formula One continued, with a 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 & 10th finish for our products.

When the chequered flag came down it was our 644th GP success, a truely magnificent achievement which AP Racing are confident of increasing in the future.

The UK company has racked up that amazing tally in just 37 years. The very first car to win a grand prix with AP Racing's brakes was the Ferrari 312B driven by Mario Andretti in the South African GP at Kyalami back in March 1971. It was, remarkably, Andretti's first competitive outing for Ferrari. The technical comparisons between the brakes used for the landmark occasions make for interesting reading. Where the caliper weighed 3.6 kg in 1971, it tipped the scales in Bahrain at 1.6 kg. The disc itself weighed 4 kg in 1971 but now weighs just 1.75 kg! AP Racing has an outstanding record in F1 - 616 Grand Prix wins starting at the Dutch GP in 1967 have been won with cars that used the British company's brakes, clutches, or both.
I guess, when it's a top ten sweep in Formula 1, nobody will complain if you congratulate yourself!

Last edited by JAJ; 09-26-2009 at 01:59 PM.
Appreciate 0
      09-26-2009, 05:07 PM   #38
dawgdog
Colonel
31
Rep
2,184
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3, 2010 GT3RS
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, Wa.

iTrader: (0)

JAJ,

I ordered the brakes - in red.

Carl
__________________
2015 f80 M3, 2010 GT3RS
Appreciate 0
      09-26-2009, 06:52 PM   #39
KM3
Formerly K335i
KM3's Avatar
5
Rep
215
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 M3
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Redmond, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgdog View Post
JAJ,

I ordered the brakes - in red.

Carl
Nice! Can't wait to check them out when they arrive.
__________________

2009 E92 M3 :: Jet Black :: Fox Red Extended :: Carbon Leather :: 6MT :: JRZ RS Suspension :: RD Sport Sways :: StopTech Trophy Brakes :: Cantrell Brake Cooling
Appreciate 0
      09-29-2009, 05:41 PM   #40
FrenchBoy
Major
FrenchBoy's Avatar
France
47
Rep
1,376
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KM3 View Post
Nice! Can't wait to check them out when they arrive.
+1! Congrats. Let me know when they get in. I would like to check them out before you install them.
__________________

2009 E90 M3 | SG | FR | 6Speed | Akrapovic Evo | JRZ RS1 | StopTech Trophy | Cantrell Brake Ducts
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2009, 06:07 PM   #41
dawgdog
Colonel
31
Rep
2,184
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3, 2010 GT3RS
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, Wa.

iTrader: (0)

Brakes arrived yesterday - front and rears. Thanks to Julius at Wheelsto for the great price and service. I will have them installed in a couple of weeks; I'm putting on studs at the same timie.
Attached Images
    
__________________
2015 f80 M3, 2010 GT3RS
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2009, 06:46 PM   #42
STALKER
Brigadier General
52
Rep
3,720
Posts

Drives: 997.2 GT3, Golf R
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto, ON

iTrader: (5)

Sweet, congrats.
Im still on the fence if I want to go AP or Brembo.
The AP kit does not have a removable bridge right?
__________________

2013 991 C4S-SOLD
2012 Golf R
2010 GT3
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2009, 08:17 PM   #43
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
bigjae1976's Avatar
94
Rep
5,818
Posts

Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgdog View Post
I'm putting on studs at the same timie.
That is a must. I've dinged up the paint on my UUC/Wilwood kit on my E46 putting the wheels back on. Studs would have prevented that. Did I mention that its x100 easier to take the wheels on and off?

Lesson learned for everyone, if you do get 17mm lug nuts, I would suggest getting some extra. I lost one a couple of days before a track event and no one local had any. So after overnight charges, I paid $40 for 9 lug nuts.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      10-10-2009, 08:47 PM   #44
JAJ
Captain
18
Rep
949
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STALKER View Post
Sweet, congrats.
Im still on the fence if I want to go AP or Brembo.
The AP kit does not have a removable bridge right?
The AP kit opens from the top for changing pads. It uses two steel sleeves to brace the gap and hold the anti-rattle spring.

One of the reasons I decided against Brembo was because the monoblock caliper has to be removed to change pads.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:29 AM.




m3post
m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST