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      09-17-2009, 02:20 PM   #45
nostrum09
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Originally Posted by Carter N View Post
and conservatism.. don't forget the conservatives




For the record, I consider myself most closely aligned with libertarianism =)
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      09-17-2009, 02:24 PM   #46
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Heres my main issue. I agree that humans have a unique brain and a unique way of thinking unlike any creature that we know of. So the question is. What have we done with this unique brain? Do the atrocities that we have committed get overlooked because of technological advances? Have we stopped the children starving in the streets? Have we stopped the wars and killings? No, our advanced brains have not stopped the most basic of human problems such as hunger.

Lets be realistic. Our main advances are entertainment technology. We have cured some dark age diseases, but the flus and common colds and cancers and tumors run rampant. Half of the world is starving and the other half is enslaved to false religions and corrupt governments. We have cars and phones and hdtvs, but what has that accomplished when our main problems of clean water and air, and food for everyone isn't being solved?

Look at it from outside the earth. As an observer looking down. Make a list of all the good things and bad things that humans have done. Does the good outweigh the bad? Does all the torture and murder get overlooked because of..….of..…of what? Cellphones and tv?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that humans have accomplished something that would allow us to take over control of the earth and its resources. Human technology doesn't count. I need examples explaining why the human species is better. Some humans have bettered the lives of other humans, true. But just as many humans suffer. I think its time we elect new leadership for the planet.
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      09-17-2009, 02:27 PM   #47
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Prowess, you are a hippie, and i like it
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      09-17-2009, 02:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Carter N View Post
Prowess, you are a hippie, and i like it
Yeah maybe. Im just a peace lover. Tired of all this killing in the name of humans/religions/politics/etc. Too bad im not in the 60s where at least I could get some topless women and drugs easy.
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      09-17-2009, 02:35 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
...No, our advanced brains have not stopped the most basic of human problems such as hunger.

Lets be realistic. Our main advances are entertainment technology...
I think Norman Borlaug would disagree with you
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      09-17-2009, 02:36 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
Heres my main issue. I agree that humans have a unique brain and a unique way of thinking unlike any creature that we know of. So the question is. What have we done with this unique brain? Do the atrocities that we have committed get overlooked because of technological advances? Have we stopped the children starving in the streets? Have we stopped the wars and killings? No, our advanced brains have not stopped the most basic of human problems such as hunger.

Lets be realistic. Our main advances are entertainment technology. We have cured some dark age diseases, but the flus and common colds and cancers and tumors run rampant. Half of the world is starving and the other half is enslaved to false religions and corrupt governments. We have cars and phones and hdtvs, but what has that accomplished when our main problems of clean water and air, and food for everyone isn't being solved?

Look at it from outside the earth. As an observer looking down. Make a list of all the good things and bad things that humans have done. Does the good outweigh the bad? Does all the torture and murder get overlooked because of..….of..…of what? Cellphones and tv?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that humans have accomplished something that would allow us to take over control of the earth and its resources. Human technology doesn't count. I need examples explaining why the human species is better. Some humans have bettered the lives of other humans, true. But just as many humans suffer. I think its time we elect new leadership for the planet.
I think this gets into an area of philosophy I'm not quite prepared or able to debate -- that of what the human race's purpose is, as a collective whole. It's hard for me to debate whether we've done more good or bad, because I don't know that a goal exists for us to reach. If our goal is to make life better for everyone, then we surely have more work to do. But if it's just for the human species to survive, we're doing a good job for now.

If I had to guess, I would say that it is the purpose of humans to live and to make their own lives enjoyable, and to the greatest extent possible, make the lives of others better. Beyond that, I've not given it much thought.

Alas, I must take my leave, but will be back tonight or tomorrow morning.
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      09-17-2009, 02:40 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
I think Norman Borlaug would disagree with you
For every Norman Borlaug (whom I like) that you throw at me, I can throw 10 times as many murderers. There would be no food shortage to begin with if we didnt screw up.

A few good people doesnt erase all the evil, no matter how good they were.
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      09-17-2009, 03:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony View Post
Electricity and power needs have just arisen in the past few centuries. We could easily lose all of our technology and still exist fine. The pyramids were built without power.
You're drastically underestimating the daily benefits of technology.

Bringing back widespread disease and hunger, along with all the other hardships from pre-industrial societies is not the way forward no matter how much some people romanticize those times. No more widespread agricultural trade. No more vaccines. No more antibiotics. High infant mortality rates. Low life expectancies. Hard manual labor. Nothing to fight cancer. Threats of starvation. etc. etc. That may read like fear mongering but those were very real problems in every-day life until very recently in our history.

I realize you may not believe that that is what you're proposing but that is the technology you'd have to give up. IMO if you want to make improvements you should be focusing on raising up the rest of the world and moving everyone into a post-industrial society.
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      09-17-2009, 03:49 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexAg06 View Post
anthropogenic global warming is pseudoscience. but, i wouldn't expect you to question it. you're just slurping up the far left talking points with relish.
He's felching.
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      09-17-2009, 03:56 PM   #54
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I think CarterN is Nixon. Nixon and Carter.
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      09-17-2009, 04:05 PM   #55
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I think CarterN is Nixon. Nixon and Carter.
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      09-17-2009, 05:28 PM   #56
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Do people really find vandalism terrifying? What a ridiculous moniker..."eco terrorist". If they start killing people go ahead and put that label on, but until then they're eco vandals.
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      09-17-2009, 05:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
Do people really find vandalism terrifying? What a ridiculous moniker..."eco terrorist". If they start killing people go ahead and put that label on, but until then they're eco vandals.
These people love to hide behind they buzz-words. They aren't comfortable talking about something unless it's got some ridiculous label attached.
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      09-17-2009, 06:56 PM   #58
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i assure you i am not nixon lol.
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      09-17-2009, 07:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by carve View Post
Do people really find vandalism terrifying? What a ridiculous moniker..."eco terrorist". If they start killing people go ahead and put that label on, but until then they're eco vandals.
So if I set off a bomb but no one dies, it is just vandalism?

The FBI disagrees: http://www.fbi.gov/page2/april09/wanted042109.html
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      09-17-2009, 07:14 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carter N View Post
i assure you i am not nixon lol.
Please accept my apologies then. Hopefully a civilized dialog will be able to be had rather than personal attacks on other forum members that have been a hallmark of our forum troll as seen in Nixon's posts (though he may actually be reducing the amount of these ad hominem attacks).
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      09-17-2009, 07:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by InsaneSkippy View Post
These people love to hide behind they buzz-words. They aren't comfortable talking about something unless it's got some ridiculous label attached.
Which people? The one's who label them eco-terrorists and disagree with their methods? If so, call them what you will then, but also feel free to respond to the content of the arguments rather than poking fun at the labels we attach. =)
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      09-17-2009, 08:07 PM   #62
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i assure you i am not nixon lol.
YOU LIE!
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      09-18-2009, 11:39 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by shpirate87 View Post
So if I set off a bomb but no one dies, it is just vandalism?

The FBI disagrees: http://www.fbi.gov/page2/april09/wanted042109.html
Yes- it's just vandalism if their intent was just to damage/destroy property and not kill people. If the bomb was intentionally designed to destroy property and not kill people, I simply don't find that terrifying. Do you? Why? If you showed up to work one day and found your place of work was burned down or blown up, would you feel sadness/anger, or terror? I think most of these people intentionally commit these acts in such a way to not hurt anybody. Most of them are vandals- not terrorists.

The link you provided was of a guy making bombs loaded with shrapnel & nails. That usually means intent to kill/maim. If the intent was to kill, then yes- it's terrorism.
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      09-18-2009, 11:55 AM   #64
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Acts of eco-terrorism by an entity brands that entity as "crazies". That's not how you get the American public on your side. Extremist methods rarely work. That being said, I'd like it if ELF some day went to burn down a budding housing project, but forgot to leave the building before setting the blaze. I would like that.
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      09-18-2009, 11:57 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carve View Post
Yes- it's just vandalism if their intent was just to damage/destroy property and not kill people. If the bomb was intentionally designed to destroy property and not kill people, I simply don't find that terrifying. Do you? Why? If you showed up to work one day and found your place of work was burned down or blown up, would you feel sadness/anger, or terror? I think most of these people intentionally commit these acts in such a way to not hurt anybody. Most of them are vandals- not terrorists.

The link you provided was of a guy making bombs loaded with shrapnel & nails. That usually means intent to kill/maim. If the intent was to kill, then yes- it's terrorism.
Their intent is to use violence to alter lawful behavior. If my business is selling lumber, building condos, or selling SUVs and I come to the office one day and find my SUV's or equipment were blown up, I may be fearful enough to find another line of work. That is terrorism, not vandalism.
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      09-18-2009, 02:18 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by shpirate87 View Post
Their intent is to use violence to alter lawful behavior. If my business is selling lumber, building condos, or selling SUVs and I come to the office one day and find my SUV's or equipment were blown up, I may be fearful enough to find another line of work. That is terrorism, not vandalism.
So, is mugging an act of terrorism? How about the Boston Tea Party, or the American revolution in general?

The word "terror" means to frighten, so terrorism must be to try to affect policy changes by means of terror. I just don't find vandalism terrifying...infuriating maybe...but terrifying? I really need to have a threat to life & limb of either me or my friends and family to feel terrified. Therefore, I'd only consider vandalism terrorism when it destorys one's means of surviving...like cutting someone's brake lines, or burning a crop in an area with no "safety net" where it'll guarantee starvation. Do you find vandalism terrifying? Why or why not?

This is a highly debatable issue, but after the Patriot act, when the president can arbitrarily label anyone a terrorist, it's very important. I don't think we should use too broad a brush when describing "terrorists".
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