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      10-05-2006, 05:29 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by ganeil
The inadvertant killing of non-combatants is not considered immoral under the Just War theory. You are correct that this has no bearing on international law but sure made a difference to me.

Can you tell me where you find a legal definition of war? The US Constitution gives the Congress the power to declare war but makes no provisions for how such a declaration is to be worded. Both operations, in Afghanistan and Iraq, were clearly provided for by the Congress. Does calling the resolution an Authorization to Use Military Force rather than a Declaration of War change its constitutional character or it impact under international law?

The UN Security Council passed UNSCR 1441 in Nov 2002 unanimously. This resolution found Iraq to be in material breach of it obligations under UNSCR 687. Under 1441, the Security Council demanded Iraq provide, "a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles..." and to cooperate “immediately, unconditionally and actively” with UN ispectors(UNMOVIC). The final report by UNMOVIC submitted prior to the invasion found that Iraq had NOT complied with the requirements of 1441 and therefore Iraq remained in material breach of 687. From a legal standpoint, no further UN resolution was required to resume the activities authorized by UNSCR 678 since Iraq had not complied with UNSCR 687 which suspended those activities. As a political matter, many world leaders like Tony Blair wanted another UN resolution to provide domestic political cover but the lack of one does not equate to a violation of the UN Charter or any other treaty to which the US is obligated.
1. There is no such thing as a 'Just War'. The theory you mention relates to earlier and more violent times. The death of an innocent can never be moral. It may be expedient, helpful perhaps even justifed, but never moral.

2. There are various definitions of war here:

http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/War

The detail will vary from nation to nation, but there is a consensus that War is a conflict between 2 nation states and that it is prededed by a declaration of war. The USA has not issued a declaration of war since WWII despite it's involvement in several conflicts since. The war(s) in iraq and afghanistan are sanctioned by your government, but not declared.

The war on terror is a war on a concept not a nation state. As such it is not strictly speaking a war.

3. There was no UN resolution which provided a mandate for the invasion of Iraq. The UK sought one, but the lack of universal support from the G8 and permanent security council prevented any such resolution from being created.

Bush had already determined that the invasion of Iraq was 'probably' legal in american law without the UN resolution and stated that it was his intention to invade with or without the backing of the UN.
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      10-06-2006, 12:04 AM   #134
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1. There is no such thing as a 'Just War'. The theory you mention relates to earlier and more violent times. The death of an innocent can never be moral. It may be expedient, helpful perhaps even justifed, but never moral.
I would respectfully disagree. Ending the Nazi regime and the Holocaust was just. Saving South Korea from the North was just. If I may be so bold, the American Revolution was just.

Quote:
The detail will vary from nation to nation, but there is a consensus that War is a conflict between 2 nation states and that it is prededed by a declaration of war. The USA has not issued a declaration of war since WWII despite it's involvement in several conflicts since. The war(s) in iraq and afghanistan are sanctioned by your government, but not declared.

The war on terror is a war on a concept not a nation state. As such it is not strictly speaking a war.
War predates the modern concept of the nation-state, as such I would prefer the definition given by Webster's:
War is conflict, between relatively large groups of people, which involves physical force inflicted by the use of weapons.
Before this devolves into a purely semantic discussion, my point was that I am unfamiliar with any definition of war under international war or any change in the character of a conflict under US law that is associated with a declaration of war as opposed to an authorization to use force. War is renounced in the Kellogg-Briand Treaty but the term is not defined. It may well be that it is because of this treaty that nations have avoided declarations of war since the Second World War. As you mentioned, the US Congress has not passed anything titled, a Declaration of War since WWII. I do not believe the UK did in the Suez conflict or in the Falklands. The same holds true for the Soviet Union regarding Afghanistan.

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There was no UN resolution which provided a mandate for the invasion of Iraq. The UK sought one, but the lack of universal support from the G8 and permanent security council prevented any such resolution from being created.

Bush had already determined that the invasion of Iraq was 'probably' legal in american law without the UN resolution and stated that it was his intention to invade with or without the backing of the UN.
I guess the crux of this argument is whether or not UNSCR 678 was still in force. The text of this resolution and all the subsequent resolutions dealing with the Iraq issue suggest that it was. UNSCR 678 clearly states that member states are authorized to use all necessary means to uphold and implement UNSCR 660 and all subsequent resolutions. (emphasis mine) This enduring authorization under 678 was used to justify Operation Desert Fox by the US and UK in Dec 1998. This contention was not disputed by the Security Council or the Secretary General.

In other instances where the Security Council has authorized all necessary means it has either expressly terminated the authorization in a subsequent resolution (e.g. 1031 relating to Bosnia) or by setting a time limit upfront in the authorizing resolution (e.g. 954 relating to Somalia).
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      10-06-2006, 10:02 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by ganeil
I would respectfully disagree. Ending the Nazi regime and the Holocaust was just. Saving South Korea from the North was just. If I may be so bold, the American Revolution was just.
I just can't quit you
Anyway, "Saving the South from North" is just for us may not have been for the others. What we see on CN and FOX may be 179 degrees from the actual events...
That is the point you and many other ordinary Americans will not understand. You will take for granted that our country is the best which is not -- the way we live is sad (work, money, 2 hours a day devoted to the family); our schools suck, our Medical sucks, we have no pension, you will be left on the street (with a miserable unemployment check) if laid off... So, no, our lives are typical capitalist lives, nothing more, nothing less...



War predates the modern concept of the nation-state, as such I would prefer the definition given by Webster's:
War is conflict, between relatively large groups of people, which involves physical force inflicted by the use of weapons.
Before this devolves into a purely semantic discussion, my point was that I am unfamiliar with any definition of war under international war or any change in the character of a conflict under US law that is associated with a declaration of war as opposed to an authorization to use force. War is renounced in the Kellogg-Briand Treaty but the term is not defined. It may well be that it is because of this treaty that nations have avoided declarations of war since the Second World War. As you mentioned, the US Congress has not passed anything titled, a Declaration of War since WWII. I do not believe the UK did in the Suez conflict or in the Falklands. The same holds true for the Soviet Union regarding Afghanistan.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I guess the crux of this argument is whether or not UNSCR 678 was still in force. The text of this resolution and all the subsequent resolutions dealing with the Iraq issue suggest that it was. UNSCR 678 clearly states that member states are authorized to use all necessary means to uphold and implement UNSCR 660 and all subsequent resolutions. (emphasis mine) This enduring authorization under 678 was used to justify Operation Desert Fox by the US and UK in Dec 1998. This contention was not disputed by the Security Council or the Secretary General.

In other instances where the Security Council has authorized all necessary means it has either expressly terminated the authorization in a subsequent resolution (e.g. 1031 relating to Bosnia) or by setting a time limit upfront in the authorizing resolution (e.g. 954 relating to Somalia).
Bosnia resolution = yes
Iraq 1991 = yes
Iraq 2003 = no
Serbia 1999 = no

Now even our constitution says that in order for a war to continue it has to be approved by the congress at latest after 51 days. The war over Serbia lasted for 79 days and was never approved -- against our own rules.

If we don't respect our own rules, why would we respect the International rules.

Why is our Gov't signing up the poor European nations (Romania, Bulgaria, trying Serbia...) for the act stating that the US soldiers and officials cannot ever be prosecuted for things done overseas??? Well, because bad things have been and will be done. They are slowly surfacing (crimes in Korean war, crimes in Iraqi war with Marines...), but no one is still in Hague. How come???

So, back to your point -- Bush clearly said in front of the world just prior to attacking Iraq -- with or without anyone's approval we're going...
There was NO specific resolution approving the attack on Iraq in 2003.
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      10-06-2006, 11:40 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by dr325i
That is the point you and many other ordinary Americans will not understand. You will take for granted that our country is the best which is not...
OK it is time to put up or shut up. I want to know which country you think is better than ours. I will personally pay for a one-way ticket to said country. Prior to your departure you will sign a legal contract with me stating you will not return to our inferior country. If you breech said contract, I will seek a civil judgement against you in an amount to be determined in said contract. So what have you?
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      10-06-2006, 12:17 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by pawarrant
OK it is time to put up or shut up. I want to know which country you think is better than ours. I will personally pay for a one-way ticket to said country. Prior to your departure you will sign a legal contract with me stating you will not return to our inferior country. If you breech said contract, I will seek a civil judgement against you in an amount to be determined in said contract. So what have you?
Well, if the only country you would live in is the best country, then...you're in for a big surprise down the road...

MANY countries are better than the USA. And I am not saying that because I read it somewhere but because I lived in Europe for 19 years and in the USA for 15 years. For past 15 years I travelled from Asia to Europe on monthly basis...

Yes, our "standard" may be the highest (avg salary/avg spendings), but...

It is nt all about the money. It is about the quality of life -- time with your family, friends. I don't care if I drive a BMW, or live in a 3000 sf home if for all that I have to work 8 AM to 8 PM, and have no life -- get home and stare at TV for an hour than hit the bed. That is why we're the most depressed, and most overweight nation in the world. THat is why our kids walk into the schools with riffles and kill other kids.

Ignorant people like you make it just worse than it is -- accept it or leave! Very dumb comment indeed, instead of analysing it and trying to change and improve it, you use the communist-ic prase -- either my way or highway....
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      10-06-2006, 12:31 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Well, if the only country you would live in is the best country, then...you're in for a big surprise down the road...

MANY countries are better than the USA. And I am not saying that because I read it somewhere but because I lived in Europe for 19 years and in the USA for 15 years. For past 15 years I travelled from Asia to Europe on monthly basis...

Yes, our "standard" may be the highest (avg salary/avg spendings), but...

It is nt all about the money. It is about the quality of life -- time with your family, friends. I don't care if I drive a BMW, or live in a 3000 sf home if for all that I have to work 8 AM to 8 PM, and have no life -- get home and stare at TV for an hour than hit the bed. That is why we're the most depressed, and most overweight nation in the world. THat is why our kids walk into the schools with riffles and kill other kids.

Ignorant people like you make it just worse than it is -- accept it or leave! Very dumb comment indeed, instead of analysing it and trying to change and improve it, you use the communist-ic prase -- either my way or highway....
Typical liberal anti-American response...don't answer the question. Why do you live hear then...hmm could it be for money?
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      10-06-2006, 12:34 PM   #139
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That is the point you and many other ordinary Americans will not understand. You will take for granted that our country is the best which is not -- the way we live is sad (work, money, 2 hours a day devoted to the family); our schools suck, our Medical sucks, we have no pension, you will be left on the street (with a miserable unemployment check) if laid off... So, no, our lives are typical capitalist lives, nothing more, nothing less...
No one decides how I live but me. If my life is as you describe then I have no one to blame but myself. Our public schoold do suck by and large, that is why my kids don't attend them. Our medical system is the envy of the world, I do not know what aspect of it you believe sucks. I have a retirement plan, don't you? If I were laid off, I would have to fall back on my savings until I found another job. I would surely not be on the street. The United States is an exceptional place, unmatched in human history. Perfect - not even close, but the last, best hope for mankind.

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Now even our constitution says that in order for a war to continue it has to be approved by the congress at latest after 51 days. The war over Serbia lasted for 79 days and was never approved -- against our own rules.
You may want to get another copy of the Constitution because there is no such provision.

As for UN resolutions, when did UNSCR 678 expire? Unless and until you can answer that simple question, you will be unable to speak intelligently on this matter.
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      10-06-2006, 01:20 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by ganeil
No one decides how I live but me. If my life is as you describe then I have no one to blame but myself. Our public schoold do suck by and large, that is why my kids don't attend them. Our medical system is the envy of the world, I do not know what aspect of it you believe sucks. I have a retirement plan, don't you? If I were laid off, I would have to fall back on my savings until I found another job. I would surely not be on the street. The United States is an exceptional place, unmatched in human history. Perfect - not even close, but the last, best hope for mankind.



You may want to get another copy of the Constitution because there is no such provision.

As for UN resolutions, when did UNSCR 678 expire? Unless and until you can answer that simple question, you will be unable to speak intelligently on this matter.
Hey, did we sign the peace with Japan yet? Or we just did a few years ago?
Why didn't we go and whack them 10 years ago when they started building better cars than us?
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      10-06-2006, 01:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by pawarrant
Typical liberal anti-American response...don't answer the question. Why do you live hear then...hmm could it be for money?
There is NOTHING anti-American in being oposed to the WRONG leader, brainwashing media and the war in general. Actually, in a long run it is very PRO-American. But we will see. Again, from the mouth of someone who grew up abroad -- 20 years ago whole Europe LOVED the USA and envied everyone who even visited the USA. Nowdays, they all cannot stand us. Our standard of living then was still higher than theirs. The only reason they changed their attitude is because of our leader's ignorance and behavior...

Why do I live here -- well:
1) My life is good, as I said before, my concersn is not for me, it is for my children. They will have the option to go wherever they like!
2) My wife ws born and raised here and her whole family lives here
3) I am getting old to move around, and the option I have to go is definitely worse place than the USA
4) No it is not the money. You see, I am thought by my parents that everything you make in your life, you give it to your kids. And that is what I intend to do. My parents gave it all to me and my sister. Unfortunately the empty headed people like Bush are making my plans for my kid's bright future impossible...

I am telling you that instead of ignoring the issues, we should try to solve them. That is real patriotism, not what you preach:

- We should focus on our education. We have all means to have it the best in the world, yet, we're toward the bottom of the leading countries. One example -- we're fortunate to have the best roads and best vehicles in the world. However, we have THE WORST drivers in the world because the driving school is not required before they hand us the license. That is just a simple example of education...

- Medical...do I need to go there? Even my birth country, a third world developing Serbia has free Medical care for all citizens

- Social Security...

- Advances: We have the opportunity to be far ahead of everyone else, yet, they are all catching up with us and surpassing us in every way.

- Understanding: we need to understand where we actually are. We need to understand how the rest of the world sees us. We don't.

These are some real issues that we should be concerned about. We should regain that world respect that we lost some time ago. People may fear us, but they definitely don't respect us any more, and that is the tragedy. It is tragic when I hear all over the world people saying Dumb Americans because most of us cannot even point their country on the map, or pronounce the name of their country
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      10-06-2006, 01:59 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by dr325i
Hey, did we sign the peace with Japan yet? Or we just did a few years ago?
Why didn't we go and whack them 10 years ago when they started building better cars than us?
Actually it was September 1945. You must have seen pictures.... MacArthur, USS Missouri, Japanese in formal wear. Come on, you remember.




Why don't you just face the facts. UNSCR 678 was still in force and you can whine all you want why the invasion of Iraq was wrong but you can't use the lack of UN permission as a reason. I am sure you have more. Concentrate on those.
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      10-06-2006, 02:05 PM   #143
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- Medical...do I need to go there? Even my birth country, a third world developing Serbia has free Medical care for all citizens
The doctors there work for free? What about the X-ray and MRI machines they must cost money, no? At least tell me the poor guy who empties bed pans get paid.
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      10-06-2006, 04:49 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by ganeil
The doctors there work for free? What about the X-ray and MRI machines they must cost money, no? At least tell me the poor guy who empties bed pans get paid.
Are we supposed to laugh at this???
Well, obviously for someone sitting here and reading about how great things are in the USA, your reaction is normal.
But no, the doctors do get paid, the Country invests into the Medicare (not into dirty wars) and the law protects the doctors, so they do not have to get $1M insurance yearly...
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      10-07-2006, 12:07 PM   #145
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Are we supposed to laugh at this???
Well, obviously for someone sitting here and reading about how great things are in the USA, your reaction is normal.
But no, the doctors do get paid, the Country invests into the Medicare (not into dirty wars) and the law protects the doctors, so they do not have to get $1M insurance yearly...
So what you are saying is that despite your earlier comment, medical care is NOT free.

Thank you for the clarification.
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      10-07-2006, 02:03 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by ganeil
So what you are saying is that despite your earlier comment, medical care is NOT free.

Thank you for the clarification.
dumb answer, cannot be dumber.

Actually, ignorant answer.

But hey, we have it all...Our medical is the greatest!

You loose your job, get sick, then come back and write us the story about your doctor's treatment...

Been there, done that...
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      10-08-2006, 02:54 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
dumb answer, cannot be dumber.

Actually, ignorant answer.

But hey, we have it all...Our medical is the greatest!

You loose your job, get sick, then come back and write us the story about your doctor's treatment...

Been there, done that...
Are you sure you even live in the US? You sure have different experiences than I do with the government here.

You still haven't answered my question which country is better than the US, since "ordinary Americans" like me "don't understand."

By the way if you are worried about your kids, I'm sure you support Bush's plan to allow individuals to opt. to invest their social security privately. Then you will be able to pass on what you earn to your kids when you die, and make more money than relying on a social security fund which will be dry by the times your kids are eligible.
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      10-08-2006, 05:55 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by dr325i
dumb answer, cannot be dumber.

Actually, ignorant answer.

But hey, we have it all...Our medical is the greatest!

You loose your job, get sick, then come back and write us the story about your doctor's treatment...

Been there, done that...
Dumb? Ignorant?

You have whined numerous times how the war in Iraq is costing us $1B a day, then you naively state that the healthcare in Serbia is free because the government pays for it. So which is it? Does government spending cost us or not?

If I lost my job and if I got sick, I would rely on my savings to brdge my insurance coverage until I found a new job, not count on the government to bail me out.
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      10-08-2006, 06:53 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by pawarrant
Are you sure you even live in the US? You sure have different experiences than I do with the government here.

You still haven't answered my question which country is better than the US, since "ordinary Americans" like me "don't understand."

By the way if you are worried about your kids, I'm sure you support Bush's plan to allow individuals to opt. to invest their social security privately. Then you will be able to pass on what you earn to your kids when you die, and make more money than relying on a social security fund which will be dry by the times your kids are eligible.

Of the countries I have spend some time in:
1) Canada
2) Singapore
3) Slovenia
4) UK
5) France

Note that "better" does not mean the standard of living counted in $$$, but the standard of living overall -- fun, family time, Medical, Social Security...

Yes in Canada for example they do not make as much as we do and the Gov't takes muckh more away. But, they make enough to live comfortably. On the other side, none of my friends from Nortel, Celestica, and a few other large Corporations up there work 7:30 - 7:30. When they get sick -- they go to doctor. If they loose job and get sick -- go to doctor -- there is NO thing called insurance that you may loose if the employer dumps you!
Health issues -- they have much less than we do -- overweight, depression, heart issues...
Family time -- on average all of the countries above give you at least 5 weeks of vacation per year. In the USA in order to get 5 weeks, you have to work for the company (SAME COMPANY!) for 20+ years, unless you own it.
Lay off -- in Europe it is very simple -- you get laid off, the employer pais for years to cover you -- here -- a week or two per year of service plus TTTHHHHEEEEEE CCCOOOBBBRAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Next, you retire at the age of 65 -- all you have is your 401k and investments. And that is you and I. Majority of US people have almost nothing. In Europe they have -- RETIREMENT! Kind of like our military and Gov't people
Education -- you want to go to the best school in Slovenia -- FREE if you're a citizen.

And so on, and so on...

The bottom line is with the money we have instead of throwing away $200B or more on some unjust war, we could provide much more for our people!

Now, the Bush SS plan -- for some it is OK, for some it is a disaster. I know many people who would blow through it. On the other hand, my wife would probably make the best out of it.

Just a simple question for you: Have you ever been outside of the USA (not counting Iraq or Afghanistan on duty? Where and for how long?
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      10-08-2006, 06:57 PM   #150
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Dumb? Ignorant?

You have whined numerous times how the war in Iraq is costing us $1B a day, then you naively state that the healthcare in Serbia is free because the government pays for it. So which is it? Does government spending cost us or not?

If I lost my job and if I got sick, I would rely on my savings to brdge my insurance coverage until I found a new job, not count on the government to bail me out.
Not really following your comment -- yes, we throw $200B/year somewhere where other countries invest in their economy and people. WHy is our standard ($$$) above theirs:
1) We're big and leader n many things, no doubt
2) Our debt is $8 trillion -- add all other countries debts, square it and we beat them
3) We explore others -- India (Software), China (Manufacturing), Middle East (oil)... actually, I am working on a possible project expanding in another 3rd world country...cheap labor...

So, lets say you're single and somehow you got a stroke -- cannot return to work -- EVER. How long before you run out of those savings and then you're dumped on the street???
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      10-08-2006, 07:41 PM   #151
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Not really following your comment -- yes, we throw $200B/year somewhere where other countries invest in their economy and people. WHy is our standard ($$$) above theirs:
1) We're big and leader n many things, no doubt
2) Our debt is $8 trillion -- add all other countries debts, square it and we beat them
3) We explore others -- India (Software), China (Manufacturing), Middle East (oil)... actually, I am working on a possible project expanding in another 3rd world country...cheap labor...

So, lets say you're single and somehow you got a stroke -- cannot return to work -- EVER. How long before you run out of those savings and then you're dumped on the street???

Have you answered the question? Is healthcare in Serbia FREE?

The reason our standard of living is higher than others is because our system is better. We are not bigger than others, we have a better system. Our system allows each individual to go as high and far as his natural ability and drive will take him. Our system focuses on generating wealth rather than redistributing it. That is why we are the magnet for all the people of the world.

Have you ever heard of long-term disability insurance? I have and I have it.
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      10-08-2006, 10:28 PM   #152
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This is why you have a bad perception of America. Most ordinary Americans (as you call us) do not believe they should rely on a government for any kind of financial assistance. Now I see why you think those other countries are better. You probably were raised as a true Marxist. Are you one of those welfare cases I am supporting? I'd personally waste some money killing a few bad guys in Iraq than giving it to some scumbag crack head who doesn't want to get a job because the hardworking tax payers will pay for him.

As far as where I have been outside of the US, I have been to Canada, Mexico, and most of the Caribbean Islands. I cannot afford to go to Europe considering how expensive everything is there.

All I can say about the countries you like better than the US, is they have ridiculous taxes compared to us; sure those taxes pay for socialized medicine and such, but quality of "government run" anything sucks. Generally, identical consumer products in the countries you prefer are more expensive compared to the US. Under the evil Bush economy we have lower unemployment rates than any of those countries. Plus our country does not censor what we watch on TV like Canada does. We have less government interference in our lives than any of those countries too. I still don't understand why you left any of those "better" countries? Are you even a US citizen?
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      10-08-2006, 10:32 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
Have you ever heard of long-term disability insurance? I have and I have it.
Come on would you expect someone like him to actually pay for somethig? He is looking for handouts from me and you!
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      10-08-2006, 11:03 PM   #154
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Come on would you expect someone like him to actually pay for somethig? He is looking for handouts from me and you!

Great! The point we were discussing was that OTHER COUNTRIES cover it when you're unemployed, and you stick with the idea of purchasing Aflec and shit like that. Of course, you can purchase MANY THINGS and pay $500/month and be sure you can get sick or loose your job. You can purchase the same kind of insurance on your credit cards, home mortgage...everything. But the point of the discussion was 180 degrees from what you're sticking to!

A typical Bush-man...

You have visited those countries, but not experienced the living in them. I am telling you Bahamas surely look great when you're the tourist, but I have many friends that work and live there...

GANEIL:
As one of you pointed out -- no, there is no free healthcare anywhere in the world. However, the money that you give to the Gov't is invested in you -- roads, Medical, schools... The money you give to our Gov't goes into the war. Would I refuse paying taxes if I could -- OF COURSE because the truth is slowly coming out. Would I want to pay extra 10% if I knew my kids are going to have "free" education and healthcare -- IN A HEARTBEAT!

Finally, I lived in this country for 15 years and paid the taxes from the day I moved in. I was unemployed for 3 months, and received $600 check monthly to support two kids (1 & 4) and a non-working wife. I pay about $10k just in federal taxes every year and about the same amout in so-called Medicare stuff. All I got back when I needed is $600/month, and that was taxed (that is the MAX anyone can get). What a SHAME of a SYSTEM!!! Plus, they sent me this great offer for Cobra that would be affordable $1400/month for my family?!@#$$ Yet, I see that scum spending billions every day to fight some rats in the country he can't even pronounce its name!

I'm out of this one, I give you what I saw from my experience you preach what you read somewhere... Enjoy it...
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