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      10-03-2006, 11:59 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
In the end, previously mentioned ass kissers (pretty much) pulled out (Spain, Poland, Italy...), and us and Blair are alone in this war, spending tens of billions of $ every month instead of putting it somewhere else...
Here is a list of your so called "ass kissers" that still have troops in Iraq.
Nations with troops currently on the ground in Iraq in harms way
USA
UK
S. Korea
Italy
Australia
Poland
Romania
Georgia
Denmark
El Salvador
Azerbaijan
Mongolia
Albania
Latvia
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Lithuania
Armenia
Bosnia & Herzegoviania
Estonia
Macedonia
Kazakhstan
Moldova
Fiji

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Do I feel safer now, 5 years after the 9-11 -- not at all, we're always a step behind them...
We have disrupted many terrorist attacks in the US and worldwide and we have killed thousands of terrorists.
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      10-03-2006, 12:20 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Here is a list of your so called "ass kissers" that still have troops in Iraq.
Nations with troops currently on the ground in Iraq in harms way
USA
UK
S. Korea
Italy
Australia
Poland
Romania
Georgia
Denmark
El Salvador
Azerbaijan
Mongolia
Albania
Latvia
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Lithuania
Armenia
Bosnia & Herzegoviania
Estonia
Macedonia
Kazakhstan
Moldova
Fiji


We have disrupted many terrorist attacks in the US and worldwide and we have killed thousands of terrorists.
hahaha...great...the world is with us Without Moldova, Estonia, Kazahstan...ah, yes, and Fiji, the world will be a tough place for the USA. Get real man. And if you think 3 nurses is a big help in all this where we spend billions and almost 4000 (admitted) dead soldiers, then you're not living in reality. Anyway, they are all ass kissers as I said...

As for the disrupted crap -- that is what Bush occasionally tells us on the TV, otherwise his ratings will be NEGATIVE. I mean, all that is a joke -- if that looney on AA flight had a lighter with him, there will be more innocent dead. They decided to forbid all liquids on the flights, what a joke. I just returned from Asia 3 weeks ago, they took my tooth paste and wine because I told them I had it. A colleague traveling with me told them it was a vase (chinese wine) and they let it in. Then in the middle of the flight the guy walks out of the toilet with the tooth brush in his mouth and a huge paste in his hand. What a JOKE this all is! We have no freiken idea what they are planning the same as we had no idea prior to the 9-11...

So, continue watching O'Riley and feel safe if you want -- I don't.
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      10-03-2006, 12:54 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
So, continue watching O'Riley and feel safe if you want -- I don't.
I never said I feel safe. I don't understand how you could feel LESS safe now then when no one was even paying attention to the problem?
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      10-03-2006, 01:17 PM   #92
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Here is a good site to read up on military operations. http://www.globalsecurity.org/ War is not something anyone wants to do but sometimes necessary when dialogue does not. I would agree that the whole Iraq ordeal is something that has caused everyone some pain in some form. Being in the military is not easy today nor in the past. Just don't cheapen those who gave their lives to support and defend the country you live in with such freedom! Try leaving your family behind and going to a foreign land only to be in harms way. Yes its our decision to join but that is part of the job. There is good in all this aftermath if you care to find out!
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      10-03-2006, 01:19 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
I never said I feel safe. I don't understand how you could feel LESS safe now then when no one was even paying attention to the problem?
Less, or more...I'd say the same.
Maybe actually less since now more of them have more objectives against us. They feel we're confused, we are guessing, and we're spread very thin. Don't you??? Before they planned these things every 8-10 years or so, now they want to "surprise" and hurt us every day. How many times did Bush elevate the level to Orange...for no reason. Ah, sorry, that was just prior to the elections in 2004. I guess the terrorists are less active since he got re-elected?

Another crap that he should be responsible for -- spreading fear among ordinary people in order to easily control them.
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      10-03-2006, 01:29 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiann
Here is a good site to read up on military operations. http://www.globalsecurity.org/ War is not something anyone wants to do but sometimes necessary when dialogue does not. I would agree that the whole Iraq ordeal is something that has caused everyone some pain in some form. Being in the military is not easy today nor in the past. Just don't cheapen those who gave their lives to support and defend the country you live in with such freedom! Try leaving your family behind and going to a foreign land only to be in harms way. Yes its our decision to join but that is part of the job. There is good in all this aftermath if you care to find out!
Again, I salute you all for DOING your job!
I despise the leaders for allowing some of you not to return for their own causes. Our military is our DEFENSe, unfortunately, lately has been used SOLELY as the OFFENSE force!

As for the dialogue: Please explain it to me.
Saddam -- you have the WMD.
No I dont -- show it to me!
Blix find them. I could not find them!
OK, Powell, put together the PPT presentation and show the world they have it!
(Damn stupid French, Russian, Chinese, Germans, Belgians, Dutch... did not buy your little presentation).
Saddam you have 10 days to leave your country with your family OR...

*10 days later*
Dear citizens -- we have exhausted the dialogue. He's bad. He used the WMD against his own people. He has stock piles of nuclear, biological and chemical stuff. We have to act now or we're all dead!

So, if that is a dialogue, then...
Shame, shame, shame...

And yet, 4 years later, nothing is found, it is admitted it was never there. HELLOOOO -- we're talking nuclear (radioactive) and other WMD -- you cannot hide that in your pocked over night and not have it detected!!! Are we all so DUMB???!!!

Yes, Saddam was bad to his people. He is a typical dictator, so was Stalin, and Milosevic, and Korean dude... But has not done anything to us. We occupied Iraq a long time ago -- they could not operate north of this parallel and south of that one. WTF! Then, in 2003, we occupied the sovereign country killed many innocent civilians (call it a colleteral damage if you want -- I call is a war crime!), and all that against the UN rules.

If I were to be asked -- Bush should be sent to Hague along with the rest of dictators...
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      10-03-2006, 01:55 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiann
Here is a good site to read up on military operations. http://www.globalsecurity.org/ War is not something anyone wants to do but sometimes necessary when dialogue does not. I would agree that the whole Iraq ordeal is something that has caused everyone some pain in some form. Being in the military is not easy today nor in the past. Just don't cheapen those who gave their lives to support and defend the country you live in with such freedom! Try leaving your family behind and going to a foreign land only to be in harms way. Yes its our decision to join but that is part of the job. There is good in all this aftermath if you care to find out!
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      10-03-2006, 05:44 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Again, I salute you all for DOING your job!
I despise the leaders for allowing some of you not to return for their own causes. Our military is our DEFENSe, unfortunately, lately has been used SOLELY as the OFFENSE force!

As for the dialogue: Please explain it to me.
Saddam -- you have the WMD.
No I dont -- show it to me!
Blix find them. I could not find them!
OK, Powell, put together the PPT presentation and show the world they have it!
(Damn stupid French, Russian, Chinese, Germans, Belgians, Dutch... did not buy your little presentation).
Saddam you have 10 days to leave your country with your family OR...

*10 days later*
Dear citizens -- we have exhausted the dialogue. He's bad. He used the WMD against his own people. He has stock piles of nuclear, biological and chemical stuff. We have to act now or we're all dead!

So, if that is a dialogue, then...
Shame, shame, shame...

And yet, 4 years later, nothing is found, it is admitted it was never there. HELLOOOO -- we're talking nuclear (radioactive) and other WMD -- you cannot hide that in your pocked over night and not have it detected!!! Are we all so DUMB???!!!

Yes, Saddam was bad to his people. He is a typical dictator, so was Stalin, and Milosevic, and Korean dude... But has not done anything to us. We occupied Iraq a long time ago -- they could not operate north of this parallel and south of that one. WTF! Then, in 2003, we occupied the sovereign country killed many innocent civilians (call it a colleteral damage if you want -- I call is a war crime!), and all that against the UN rules.

If I were to be asked -- Bush should be sent to Hague along with the rest of dictators...
I agree that the reasoning for our occupation of Iraq was based on poor intel or basically using it to our advantage as a way in. I'm sure the oil and politics of it had something to do with it as well. Whatever the reason we are there now and are bound to repair the damage we caused and bring back social justice in an government that can actually do something and get us the hell out of there and on to the next conflict. We are always in the middle of something and the world views us a a global security force and of course we have to maintain the rep. We have built schools for children, train their military forces and try and help them establish a governement where democracy will hopefully restore some balance back to the country. It seems to be a monumental task when Pakistan and other organizations are still funding terrorist activity. We can't kill them all so it seems like a never ending conflict. Some may compare it to Vietnam. Saddam should've been shot to death when we had the chance back in 91 when he tried to invade Kuwait. Now he's on trial for all the killing he personally ordered on the Shites. You would think he trial would be over by now but that's red tape and our legal system. If he were anywhere near me, I would've taken my 9 mil and took him out. Don't think that anyone would put me on trial for that.
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      10-03-2006, 07:10 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
We have disrupted many terrorist attacks in the US and worldwide and we have killed thousands of terrorists.
Great, we've killed thousands of terrorists. The problem lies with the fact that thousands more have been created. Military action alone will not solve this problem, but it will be part of the solution. The "war on terror" (that phrase makes my skin crawl) must be fought with a scalpel and not a hammer.
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      10-03-2006, 07:43 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
Great, we've killed thousands of terrorists. The problem lies with the fact that thousands more have been created. Military action alone will not solve this problem, but it will be part of the solution. The "war on terror" (that phrase makes my skin crawl) must be fought with a scalpel and not a hammer.

Well said.
We had a chance to decimate them (and probably capture the leader) in Afghanistan, if we closed the borders, and cleaned the $h*t.
However, W was too busy thinking about the oil and Iraq and messed things up. It is like you see a dozen roaches in the middle of your room, and you take a broom and hit them in the middle. You kill two or three, the rest disappears... That is what W and co. did -- distroyed a few of their training camps in Afghanistan, then they created many more all over the world. When are they and their followers going to admit that???
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      10-03-2006, 09:38 PM   #99
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Reality Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Again, I salute you all for DOING your job!
I despise the leaders for allowing some of you not to return for their own causes. Our military is our DEFENSe, unfortunately, lately has been used SOLELY as the OFFENSE force!

As for the dialogue: Please explain it to me.
Saddam -- you have the WMD.
No I dont -- show it to me!
Blix find them. I could not find them!
OK, Powell, put together the PPT presentation and show the world they have it!
(Damn stupid French, Russian, Chinese, Germans, Belgians, Dutch... did not buy your little presentation).
Saddam you have 10 days to leave your country with your family OR...

*10 days later*
Dear citizens -- we have exhausted the dialogue. He's bad. He used the WMD against his own people. He has stock piles of nuclear, biological and chemical stuff. We have to act now or we're all dead!

So, if that is a dialogue, then...
Shame, shame, shame...

And yet, 4 years later, nothing is found, it is admitted it was never there. HELLOOOO -- we're talking nuclear (radioactive) and other WMD -- you cannot hide that in your pocked over night and not have it detected!!! Are we all so DUMB???!!!

Yes, Saddam was bad to his people. He is a typical dictator, so was Stalin, and Milosevic, and Korean dude... But has not done anything to us. We occupied Iraq a long time ago -- they could not operate north of this parallel and south of that one. WTF! Then, in 2003, we occupied the sovereign country killed many innocent civilians (call it a colleteral damage if you want -- I call is a war crime!), and all that against the UN rules.

If I were to be asked -- Bush should be sent to Hague along with the rest of dictators...

I find myself wondering if you really believe what you write or if you are attempting a parody of some sort.

What you present as the dialogue that occured would be funny if I did not think you seriously believed this is the way it happened. It actually went something more like this:

1991 - 1998
Saddam - Kuwait is Iraq's 19th province.
UN - Get out of Kuwait. If you do not, we will remove you.
Iraq refuses and is forced out of Kuwait.
Saddam - May we please have a ceasefire?
UN - If you want a ceasefire, you have to agree to the following terms including the complete declaration of and monitored destruction of all your Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and ballistic missile weapons.
Saddam - OK. Deal
UN - How much of the banned stuff do you have? Where is it all?
Saddam - I have X and it is here, here, and here.
UN - Hey! This is only 1/2 X. Where is the rest?
Saddam - I don't have anymore.
UN - Really? Then why did we find this over here and that over there?
Saddam - Oh yeah, I had that too. But, I promise that is all of it.
UN - Can we take a look over there to make sure?
Saddam - No
UN - But you agreed to let us look wherever we want and we still haven't found the other 1/2 X.
Saddam - I destroyed the rest and it is not here anymore.
UN - We want to look over there to make sure.
Saddam - No
I hate to make light of what happened but the facts are that Iraq submitted no fewer than 3 Full, Final and Complete Declarations of their chemical weapons inventory and capabilities, 4 Full, Final and Complete Declarations of their biological weapons inventory and capabilities, and 3 Full, Final and Complete Declarations of their ballistic missile inventory and capabilities from 1992 to 2002. Is this really someone you would trust?

Saddam was bad to his own people but he was also bad to the people of Iran, Kuwait, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. He invaded two of his neighbors and launched missiles at two others. What separated Saddam from the others you mentioned was that he USED chemical weapons against his own and other people.

One more thing, I am curious what do you believe President Bush should be charged with?
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      10-03-2006, 09:49 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i

Well said.
We had a chance to decimate them (and probably capture the leader) in Afghanistan, if we closed the borders, and cleaned the $h*t.
Have you ever seen the border areas of Afghanistan? How do you propose we could have closed them?
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      10-03-2006, 10:16 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I find myself wondering if you really believe what you write or if you are attempting a parody of some sort.

What you present as the dialogue that occured would be funny if I did not think you seriously believed this is the way it happened. It actually went something more like this:

1991 - 1998
Saddam - Kuwait is Iraq's 19th province.
UN - Get out of Kuwait. If you do not, we will remove you.
Iraq refuses and is forced out of Kuwait.
Saddam - May we please have a ceasefire?
UN - If you want a ceasefire, you have to agree to the following terms including the complete declaration of and monitored destruction of all your Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and ballistic missile weapons.
Saddam - OK. Deal
UN - How much of the banned stuff do you have? Where is it all?
Saddam - I have X and it is here, here, and here.
UN - Hey! This is only 1/2 X. Where is the rest?
Saddam - I don't have anymore.
UN - Really? Then why did we find this over here and that over there?
Saddam - Oh yeah, I had that too. But, I promise that is all of it.
UN - Can we take a look over there to make sure?
Saddam - No
UN - But you agreed to let us look wherever we want and we still haven't found the other 1/2 X.
Saddam - I destroyed the rest and it is not here anymore.
UN - We want to look over there to make sure.
Saddam - No
I hate to make light of what happened but the facts are that Iraq submitted no fewer than 3 Full, Final and Complete Declarations of their chemical weapons inventory and capabilities, 4 Full, Final and Complete Declarations of their biological weapons inventory and capabilities, and 3 Full, Final and Complete Declarations of their ballistic missile inventory and capabilities from 1992 to 2002. Is this really someone you would trust?

Saddam was bad to his own people but he was also bad to the people of Iran, Kuwait, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. He invaded two of his neighbors and launched missiles at two others. What separated Saddam from the others you mentioned was that he USED chemical weapons against his own and other people.

One more thing, I am curious what do you believe President Bush should be charged with?
Clearly charged with:
1) Killing innocent civilians -- then call it all Colleteral Damage (why would not OBL call the 9-11 stuff colleteral damage)?
2) Lying to the UN, then going against UN resolution
3) Shit that happened in Iraq with marines killing 20 innocent Iraquis -- do you think that Milosevic took the gun and killed innocent people -- NO. Others did, but he was charged for that in Hague. What is different with W?
4) Occupying the sovereign country because he thought they had... Then he admitted it was a false intel

Next -- Saddam uset bio weapon on his own people and killed 10k of them -- bad thing!

However, the USA is THE ONLY country in the history of human kind that have used the WMD against the other nation and in asecond wiped out 250k citizens of Japan, then used Geneva prohibited Napal and Cluster bombs in Vietnam, Bosnia and Kosovo!!! So, who would you trust now buddy???

Enough of that propaganda crap that I hear every day on TV. Get the facts then talk to me.

And DO NOT involve the UN or any normal Government with Iraq at all, please.
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      10-03-2006, 11:22 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Clearly charged with:
1) Killing innocent civilians -- then call it all Colleteral Damage (why would not OBL call the 9-11 stuff colleteral damage)?
2) Lying to the UN, then going against UN resolution
3) Shit that happened in Iraq with marines killing 20 innocent Iraquis -- do you think that Milosevic took the gun and killed innocent people -- NO. Others did, but he was charged for that in Hague. What is different with W?
4) Occupying the sovereign country because he thought they had... Then he admitted it was a false intel

Next -- Saddam uset bio weapon on his own people and killed 10k of them -- bad thing!

However, the USA is THE ONLY country in the history of human kind that have used the WMD against the other nation and in asecond wiped out 250k citizens of Japan, then used Geneva prohibited Napal and Cluster bombs in Vietnam, Bosnia and Kosovo!!! So, who would you trust now buddy???

Enough of that propaganda crap that I hear every day on TV. Get the facts then talk to me.

And DO NOT involve the UN or any normal Government with Iraq at all, please.

I see your knowledge of international law is on par with your military expertise.

1. Civilians die in wars. Unfortunate it is true but unless the civilians were the intended target of the operation their deaths are neither illegal nor immoral.

2. What UN resolution was violated? UNSCR 678 authorized military force be used against Iraq to enforce UNSCR 660 and all subsequent resolutions relating to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. The ceasefire agreement, UNSCR 687, was one of those subsequent resolutions. UNSCR 1441 found Iraq in material breach of its obligations under 687. By what standard was any further authorization required?

3. The difference is that Milosevic was charged with ordering his army to murder non-combatants. If the Marines did murder civilians, a fact I am not willing to concede, you would have to have evidence that they were ordered to do so and that the orders came from the White House.

4. You seem to be unwilling to accept the fact that EVERYBODY believed Iraq retained a chemical and bio weapons capability. The UN thought they did. The onus was on Iraq to prove to the satisfaction of the inspectors that they did not. They failed to do so and paid the price.

Your grasp of history is lacking as well.

Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran as well as aganst the Kurds.

Where in the Geneva Conventions are napalm and cluster bombs prohibited?
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      10-03-2006, 11:45 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I see your knowledge of international law is on par with your military expertise.

1. Civilians die in wars. Unfortunate it is true but unless the civilians were the intended target of the operation their deaths are neither illegal nor immoral.

2. What UN resolution was violated? UNSCR 678 authorized military force be used against Iraq to enforce UNSCR 660 and all subsequent resolutions relating to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. The ceasefire agreement, UNSCR 687, was one of those subsequent resolutions. UNSCR 1441 found Iraq in material breach of its obligations under 687. By what standard was any further authorization required?

3. The difference is that Milosevic was charged with ordering his army to murder non-combatants. If the Marines did murder civilians, a fact I am not willing to concede, you would have to have evidence that they were ordered to do so and that the orders came from the White House.

4. You seem to be unwilling to accept the fact that EVERYBODY believed Iraq retained a chemical and bio weapons capability. The UN thought they did. The onus was on Iraq to prove to the satisfaction of the inspectors that they did not. They failed to do so and paid the price.

Your grasp of history is lacking as well.

Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran as well as aganst the Kurds.

Where in the Geneva Conventions are napalm and cluster bombs prohibited?
1) Read Geneva Convention on those bombs.
2) NOT everybody believed that Iraq had the WMD -- only us and UK wanted to believe -- France, Germany, China, Russia, etc did not. Actually, H. Blix came back with the report saying there is nothing there, but Bush did not like it. Do you really think you can hide the WMD overnight??? Use your brain.
3) The truth about Milosevic will never be found -- but we (the owners of the Hague court) said he did order that -- nothing was proven before he died. Now, you really think we are going to say the same about our leader??? Obviously brainwashed...
4) Saddam did not use it against Iran on Iranian teritory -- he used it against Kurds in IRAQ! And far away from killing 250k people in an instant
5) UN Resolution -- SHOW ME the resolution authorizing the use of force in 2003. Show me that the Security Councel approved what we did. Show me just if anyone else besides the US and UK supported the attack with no hesitation

6) My favorite -- civilians die in wars... So easy to say. Bet you had a smile on your face when you typed that line. Shame! Yes they die, but they should not die because we bombed a building thinking someone may have been in there then admitting a bad intel, or bombing the Chinese Embassy then saying -- ah our satellite image was old, or bombing the Belgrade TV station because it supported the current regime, just wiped off 19 young parents, and so many of those... I mean, what is stopping OBL from saying we planned to fly the plane into the military stuff, but clipped the WTC. I mean, do you really believe that we just accidentally did it??? And then, we just forgot them all and marked them as the colleteral damage like a roadside kill.

It is so obvious that you will never admit to any wrong doing of our all mighty military and our fearless leaders. And my intent is not to swing you to the other side and change your thinking at all.
However, what our Gov't has accomplished so far is:
1) Created more of the bad stuff than they elliminated
2) Caused regular Americans to constantly live in fear
3) Caused us not to be able to mention where we come from when abroad (and I remember when it used to be so powerful to say I am an American standing right next to the Eiffel Tower)
4) Will certainly cause the lives of my kids to be miserable

Unfortunately, I cannot find a single positive thing that came out of all this...

Cheers and you all sleep well now...
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      10-03-2006, 11:52 PM   #104
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Where in the Geneva Conventions are napalm and cluster bombs prohibited?
http://www.idust.net/Law/Treaties.htm

in the same paragraph with the WMD, nuclear, bio, chem...
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      10-04-2006, 05:54 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by ganeil
1. Civilians die in wars. Unfortunate it is true but unless the civilians were the intended target of the operation their deaths are neither illegal nor immoral.

4. You seem to be unwilling to accept the fact that EVERYBODY believed Iraq retained a chemical and bio weapons capability. The UN thought they did. The onus was on Iraq to prove to the satisfaction of the inspectors that they did not. They failed to do so and paid the price.
The accidental killing of civilians in war may not be illegal, but it is certainly immoral. Morality has nothing to do with international law.

It's also worth noting that the war on terror - including the invasion of afghanistan and iraq - is not a 'war' as legally defined. No declaration of war has been made by either side.

No EVERYBODY did not believe that Iraq retained chemical and bio weapons capability.

The chief UN weapons inspector (Hans Blix) stated prior to the invasion that he did not believe that there were WMD's in Iraq. This statement seems to have been correct.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...2-un-wmd_x.htm

That's why the invasion was not supported by a UN Resolution, was not backed by the majority of the G8 and was not approved by the Permanent Members of the UN Security Council.
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      10-04-2006, 08:30 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by needforspeed
The accidental killing of civilians in war may not be illegal, but it is certainly immoral. Morality has nothing to do with international law.

It's also worth noting that the war on terror - including the invasion of afghanistan and iraq - is not a 'war' as legally defined. No declaration of war has been made by either side.

No EVERYBODY did not believe that Iraq retained chemical and bio weapons capability.

The chief UN weapons inspector (Hans Blix) stated prior to the invasion that he did not believe that there were WMD's in Iraq. This statement seems to have been correct.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...2-un-wmd_x.htm

That's why the invasion was not supported by a UN Resolution, was not backed by the majority of the G8 and was not approved by the Permanent Members of the UN Security Council.

The inadvertant killing of non-combatants is not considered immoral under the Just War theory. You are correct that this has no bearing on international law but sure made a difference to me.

Can you tell me where you find a legal definition of war? The US Constitution gives the Congress the power to declare war but makes no provisions for how such a declaration is to be worded. Both operations, in Afghanistan and Iraq, were clearly provided for by the Congress. Does calling the resolution an Authorization to Use Military Force rather than a Declaration of War change its constitutional character or it impact under international law?

The UN Security Council passed UNSCR 1441 in Nov 2002 unanimously. This resolution found Iraq to be in material breach of it obligations under UNSCR 687. Under 1441, the Security Council demanded Iraq provide, "a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles..." and to cooperate “immediately, unconditionally and actively” with UN ispectors(UNMOVIC). The final report by UNMOVIC submitted prior to the invasion found that Iraq had NOT complied with the requirements of 1441 and therefore Iraq remained in material breach of 687. From a legal standpoint, no further UN resolution was required to resume the activities authorized by UNSCR 678 since Iraq had not complied with UNSCR 687 which suspended those activities. As a political matter, many world leaders like Tony Blair wanted another UN resolution to provide domestic political cover but the lack of one does not equate to a violation of the UN Charter or any other treaty to which the US is obligated.
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      10-04-2006, 10:46 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ganeil
The inadvertant killing of non-combatants is not considered immoral under the Just War theory. You are correct that this has no bearing on international law but sure made a difference to me.

Can you tell me where you find a legal definition of war? The US Constitution gives the Congress the power to declare war but makes no provisions for how such a declaration is to be worded. Both operations, in Afghanistan and Iraq, were clearly provided for by the Congress. Does calling the resolution an Authorization to Use Military Force rather than a Declaration of War change its constitutional character or it impact under international law?

The UN Security Council passed UNSCR 1441 in Nov 2002 unanimously. This resolution found Iraq to be in material breach of it obligations under UNSCR 687. Under 1441, the Security Council demanded Iraq provide, "a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles..." and to cooperate “immediately, unconditionally and actively” with UN ispectors(UNMOVIC). The final report by UNMOVIC submitted prior to the invasion found that Iraq had NOT complied with the requirements of 1441 and therefore Iraq remained in material breach of 687. From a legal standpoint, no further UN resolution was required to resume the activities authorized by UNSCR 678 since Iraq had not complied with UNSCR 687 which suspended those activities. As a political matter, many world leaders like Tony Blair wanted another UN resolution to provide domestic political cover but the lack of one does not equate to a violation of the UN Charter or any other treaty to which the US is obligated.
Christ man, are you a freiken Robot or something???
tra, tra, tra...
This is the definition, this is the formula ...according to definition killing innocent it OK... Wake up, killing a single human as an error has no price tag on it and cannot be justified EVER! War theory??? BULL SHIT!

As for your numbers and UNSCR crap -- again, it sounds terrific, however, if it were true then we would have all nations putting efforts into this mess from the beginning and it would have been clean by now. On the other hand, it is a two-nation show pretty much and a total mess. The terrorists (or whoever) killed 3000 innocent Americans, then we killed (or sent them directly to be killed) another 4000 robots or soldiers if you will and Bush and company are only pretending they care that their families will have to live without father or mother or brother or sister.

The UN is formed simply for one reason -- so that the most powerful will not use that power to opress the rest -- every invasion would HAVE to be approved by the UN and Security Councel. This agression never was. Of course, Bush and co prepared us (or general public) very well -- French are cowards, Germans are scared, blah blah -- omitting to say -- maybe they respect the rules and the will of their own people?! Bush clearly stated -- either you're in this with us or we consider you an enemy -- basically saying I don't give a shit about any approval...

Again, you and I will probably not witness this, but one day the US (most likely) may not be this world power and others will toy with us as we're toying with them. And, unfortunately, my child, or their children may end up slaving for someone thanks to the evil doind of our generation (spending, attacking, opressing, ignorance, global warming, drilling...)
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      10-04-2006, 12:24 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by dr325i
1) Read Geneva Convention on those bombs.
2) NOT everybody believed that Iraq had the WMD -- only us and UK wanted to believe -- France, Germany, China, Russia, etc did not. Actually, H. Blix came back with the report saying there is nothing there, but Bush did not like it. Do you really think you can hide the WMD overnight??? Use your brain.
3) The truth about Milosevic will never be found -- but we (the owners of the Hague court) said he did order that -- nothing was proven before he died. Now, you really think we are going to say the same about our leader??? Obviously brainwashed...
4) Saddam did not use it against Iran on Iranian teritory -- he used it against Kurds in IRAQ! And far away from killing 250k people in an instant
5) UN Resolution -- SHOW ME the resolution authorizing the use of force in 2003. Show me that the Security Councel approved what we did. Show me just if anyone else besides the US and UK supported the attack with no hesitation

6) My favorite -- civilians die in wars... So easy to say. Bet you had a smile on your face when you typed that line. Shame! Yes they die, but they should not die because we bombed a building thinking someone may have been in there then admitting a bad intel, or bombing the Chinese Embassy then saying -- ah our satellite image was old, or bombing the Belgrade TV station because it supported the current regime, just wiped off 19 young parents, and so many of those... I mean, what is stopping OBL from saying we planned to fly the plane into the military stuff, but clipped the WTC. I mean, do you really believe that we just accidentally did it??? And then, we just forgot them all and marked them as the colleteral damage like a roadside kill.

It is so obvious that you will never admit to any wrong doing of our all mighty military and our fearless leaders. And my intent is not to swing you to the other side and change your thinking at all.
However, what our Gov't has accomplished so far is:
1) Created more of the bad stuff than they elliminated
2) Caused regular Americans to constantly live in fear
3) Caused us not to be able to mention where we come from when abroad (and I remember when it used to be so powerful to say I am an American standing right next to the Eiffel Tower)
4) Will certainly cause the lives of my kids to be miserable

Unfortunately, I cannot find a single positive thing that came out of all this...

...

http://www.idust.net/Law/Treaties.htm

in the same paragraph with the WMD, nuclear, bio, chem...
The link you provided points to a document that is NOT part of any Geneva Convention. It is a resolution by a UN sub-commission and is in no way binding on any member state including the US. There is a Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, Protocol III, Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons which would relate to napalm but not cluster munitions. This protocol is binding on the US but it prohibits the indiscriminate use of the munitions in question. It does not prohibit the munitions themselves. The US signed the protocol with a declaration to this effect.

As for hiding WMD, how hard do you think it is to hide artillery shells filled with mustard gas? Aerial bombs filled with VX? 55 gallon drums filled with anthrax?

You are incorrect in your belief that Iraq confined its use of CW to its own population. Iraq repeatedly used both mustard and tabun against Iranian ground forces in Iranian as well as Iraqi territory.

I explained the applicability of the various UN resolutions in a post above so I will not repeat it here.

As for civilians dying in war, it is an unfortunate and tragic consequence of warfare. There is however areal and meaningful distinction between the intentional and deliberate killing of civilians and the the killing of civilians as a consequence of an attack on a legitimate military target. UBL could claim that the attack on the Pentagon was an attack on a legitimate military target but your argument falls apart because he deliberately used an airliner filled with non-combatants for the attack.

I freely admit mistakes by our military and leaders but I attribute them to just that, a mistake. People are wrong sometimes. They make mistakes but just because a mistake is made, it does not mean that their motives were anything other than sincere. You seem to want to attribute any wrong judgement or mistaken belief on nefarious motives.
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      10-04-2006, 12:57 PM   #109
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There are some real sick anti-Americans on here. It is not worth it to argue with them, as they have no concept of reality. Anyone who equates the intentional killing of civilians on 9-11 to accidental killings of civilians by our military in response has serious mental problems.
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      10-04-2006, 01:22 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by pawarrant
There are some real sick anti-Americans on here. It is not worth it to argue with them, as they have no concept of reality. Anyone who equates the intentional killing of civilians on 9-11 to accidental killings of civilians by our military in response has serious mental problems.

I am an American!
And, yes, I would put that MO-FO to the court also for setting the rule -- if you don't like me and don't agree with me -- you are anti-American and not patriotic!
Just read my lines and tell me what was against the people of the USA and my own children???

All you and your leaders are doing is against the America and its people is sick.

As for the equating the 9-11 with what we do now around the world -- I never equated that, I told you what if. If we can change rules and fit them to our liking, why couldn't anyone else???

We occupied and massacred people over there just because we had an idea, never proven and never will be. You and Bush would ask, but if we waited... Well, prove it other way, I'll congratulate you, otherwise you're a scum as big as they are.
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