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      09-27-2006, 05:53 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
This is a difficult war to win. I don't think people realize that it will probably last longer than our life time. This war is unique since 1 terrorist can cause so much death and destruction. Unfortunately because of the terrorist's mind set they have dictated that every last one of them must be killed or captured to end the threat. I acknowledge that this is impossible. Although, the American people will not stand for another major event in the US especially a nuke or bio attack. If this were to occur I don't think our leaders will sit back and try to go after a handful of people. As in any war, I believe we will win when peace is achieved. Like I said, the terrorists are not rational and will not surrender until they are ball dead or captured.
What do you think the USA would do if (god forbid) an attack like 9/11 happened again?

As I have said before I think the US invasion of Afghanistan was correct morally and politically. If an attack of that scale happened in the UK and was planned on foreign soil I would expect us to go to a full scale war, not a 'war on terror'.

At least you acknowledge that the threat of terrorism will always exist.
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      09-27-2006, 06:56 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
What do you think the USA would do if (god forbid) an attack like 9/11 happened again?
I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be on vacation in Tehran or Damascus. What do you think should our response be if say a radiation or bio attack occurred in New York City with a few hundred thousand casualties?
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      09-28-2006, 03:46 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
I don't know, but I wouldn't want to be on vacation in Tehran or Damascus. What do you think should our response be if say a radiation or bio attack occurred in New York City with a few hundred thousand casualties?
I think it would be the same as ours.

The same sort of response that 911 brought against afghanistan, but on a larger scale.

Frankly, Bush HAD to attack someone after 911. I don't think the USA would have accepted inaction and neither would the Brits in that situation.
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      09-29-2006, 08:57 PM   #70
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thousands of accidents like 9/11 happen every week all around the world, British train accidents, north Korean's massacres..etc...If U.S is meant to be a global leader in the United Nation, it should be the one to see the over all picture rather than act on impulse. Yes, we wish 9/11 had never happened. We also wish a war is not happenning in the middle east. Think globally. What is moral in a world sense?
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      09-30-2006, 04:05 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKOBI
thousands of accidents like 9/11 happen every week all around the world, British train accidents, north Korean's massacres..etc...If U.S is meant to be a global leader in the United Nation, it should be the one to see the over all picture rather than act on impulse. Yes, we wish 9/11 had never happened. We also wish a war is not happenning in the middle east. Think globally. What is moral in a world sense?

9/11 wasn't an accident it was deliberate and calculated murder.

Morality isn't global - it's local. Killing people whatever the reason is immoral.
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      09-30-2006, 10:26 AM   #72
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A bit of history...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k:
I think myself and the other ppl in this thread fall into that 35% category that had some sense and knew bush was lieing and just drumming up american support for his war.
President Bush was not the first person to assert that Iraq had WMD. In fact I remember spending Christmas '98 in a very sandy place because, as President Clinton put it -
" Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons."
There was a consensus among all the major intelligence agencies in the world that Iraq possessed substantial quantities of chemical weapons and an active bio-weapon program both before President Bush took office and after. To asssert that President Bush knew that every intelligence agency in the world was wrong and used their mistaken analysis to drive his personal agenda is just plain tin foil hat lunacy.

I would also suggest you read the resolution Congress passed authorizing Operation Iraqi Freedom. You will notice that the other reasons for deposing the Ba'athist regime in Iraq were stated up front and not afterthoughts
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      09-30-2006, 02:42 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJKOBI
thousands of accidents like 9/11 happen every week all around the world, British train accidents, north Korean's massacres..etc...If U.S is meant to be a global leader in the United Nation, it should be the one to see the over all picture rather than act on impulse. Yes, we wish 9/11 had never happened. We also wish a war is not happenning in the middle east. Think globally. What is moral in a world sense?
Bush has been accidentally killing terrorists.
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      09-30-2006, 02:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
President Bush was not the first person to assert that Iraq had WMD. In fact I remember spending Christmas '98 in a very sandy place because, as President Clinton put it -
" Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons."
There was a consensus among all the major intelligence agencies in the world that Iraq possessed substantial quantities of chemical weapons and an active bio-weapon program both before President Bush took office and after. To asssert that President Bush knew that every intelligence agency in the world was wrong and used their mistaken analysis to drive his personal agenda is just plain tin foil hat lunacy.

I would also suggest you read the resolution Congress passed authorizing Operation Iraqi Freedom. You will notice that the other reasons for deposing the Ba'athist regime in Iraq were stated up front and not afterthoughts
Exactly, WMD's was just 1 reason out of 44 in Powell's speech to the UN before we went to war. It is just the only reason the Dems have tried to exploit politically.
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      10-02-2006, 05:36 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Exactly, WMD's was just 1 reason out of 44 in Powell's speech to the UN before we went to war. It is just the only reason the Dems have tried to exploit politically.
This war is going to go down as one of the greatest mistakes in military history. Some day you'll see the light.
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      10-02-2006, 06:52 PM   #76
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How do you figure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
This war is going to go down as one of the greatest mistakes in military history. Some day you'll see the light.
I am not sure I follow you. What standard are you using for "mistakes in military history"? Surely you do not equate what is currently occuring in Iraq to the Roman defeat at Cannae, Napoleon's invasion of Russia, or the German seige of Stalingrad. Try to maintain a little perspective.

What is happening in Iraq is a low level insurgency and a low scale civil war. There is no way the Iraqi government forces, with proper US support can be defeated militarily by the forces currently arrayed against them. Defeat can only come about if the US public fails to politically support our efforts there.

Agree or disagree with the decision to invade Iraq, we are there now and how to win should be the only discussion.
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      10-02-2006, 08:24 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
This war is going to go down as one of the greatest mistakes in military history. Some day you'll see the light.
How do you have any more insight to what history will be than anyone else does? B.T.W. the initial war was a military success, it is securing the peace that has eluded us so far. After the surrender of Japan in WWII, Japanese units engaged allied troops in firefights throughout the Pacific all the way until 1974. Nazi's attacked allied troops long after Germany surrendered as well. The U.S. still has troops in both nations. Would you declare those as military mistakes, or is your criticism of this war based on your illogical hatred of president Bush?
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      10-02-2006, 08:25 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I am not sure I follow you. What standard are you using for "mistakes in military history"? Surely you do not equate what is currently occuring in Iraq to the Roman defeat at Cannae, Napoleon's invasion of Russia, or the German seige of Stalingrad. Try to maintain a little perspective.

What is happening in Iraq is a low level insurgency and a low scale civil war. There is no way the Iraqi government forces, with proper US support can be defeated militarily by the forces currently arrayed against them. Defeat can only come about if the US public fails to politically support our efforts there.

Agree or disagree with the decision to invade Iraq, we are there now and how to win should be the only discussion.
Right on!
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      10-02-2006, 08:36 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
This war is going to go down as one of the greatest mistakes in military history. Some day you'll see the light.
Every war is a mistake.
It is a mistake that we have put someone in the office who cannot win with the dialogue, but only use the force...
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      10-02-2006, 08:55 PM   #80
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Cannae

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Every war is a mistake.
It is a mistake that we have put someone in the office who cannot win with the dialogue, but only use the force...
The American Revolution, which launched he greatest experiment in human freedom was a mistake?

The US Civil War which expanded that promise of freedom to those to whom it had tragically been denied was a mistake?

The defeat of Nazi Germany was a mistake?

Dialogue requires two parties willing to compromise and there are certain principles that are not negotiable.

Somethings are worth fighting for. The alternative is tyranny and slavery.
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      10-02-2006, 09:11 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
The American Revolution, which launched he greatest experiment in human freedom was a mistake?

The US Civil War which expanded that promise of freedom to those to whom it had tragically been denied was a mistake?

The defeat of Nazi Germany was a mistake?

Dialogue requires two parties willing to compromise and there are certain principles that are not negotiable.

Somethings are worth fighting for. The alternative is tyranny and slavery.
WHat is so civil about war...anyway... one guy said...
Anyway -- the nazi thing -- we defended ourselves
but these wars lately -- against Milosevic in Europe, Hussein in Middle east, blah, blah -- crap and political propaganda.
On the other hand when there is a real threat (N Korea), we just stop talking about it and the American population (majority) forgets about it...
Although I cannot stand the current leader, he's not the only one that played these dirty political games with the wars and caused many families to loose its members...
God bless them all...
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      10-02-2006, 09:20 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil
I am not sure I follow you. What standard are you using for "mistakes in military history"? Surely you do not equate what is currently occuring in Iraq to the Roman defeat at Cannae, Napoleon's invasion of Russia, or the German seige of Stalingrad. Try to maintain a little perspective.

What is happening in Iraq is a low level insurgency and a low scale civil war. There is no way the Iraqi government forces, with proper US support can be defeated militarily by the forces currently arrayed against them. Defeat can only come about if the US public fails to politically support our efforts there.

Agree or disagree with the decision to invade Iraq, we are there now and how to win should be the only discussion.
Up until now this current situation does not compare with the examples you have given, but this is far from over. People have to be held accountable for their decisions. That should also be part of the discussion.
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      10-02-2006, 09:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
Up until now this current situation does not compare with the examples you have given, but this is far from over. People have to be held accountable for their decisions. That should also be part of the discussion.
Of course people, especially leaders, should be held accountable for their decisions. That is what we have elections for. Our nation made a decision that it was in our national interest to use military force to change the regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq. Both of these decisions were made by the people we elected to make such decisions. Both decisions were made in an overwhelmingly bi-partisan manner. The decisions made are subject to review on a regular basis. The members of Congress who made the decision have been reelected to office in large numbers. The President who made that decision was also reelected.

The decision was made and reaffirmed - it is now time to put that argument behind us and decide to win what we started.
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      10-02-2006, 10:26 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
On the other hand when there is a real threat (N Korea)...
So you would support launching a war against North Korea?
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      10-02-2006, 10:31 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Every war is a mistake.
It is a mistake that we have put someone in the office who cannot win with the dialogue, but only use the force...
Throughout history peace has been achieved by defeating enemies in a war. It has never been achieved through dialogue. Dialogue just delays the inevitable usually causing more casualties than if military force was used at the beginning of a conflict. Imagine how many millions of people would have been saved if Germany was stopped initially instead of appeasing them for so long.
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      10-02-2006, 10:35 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
So you would support launching a war against North Korea?
I did not say that...but it looks more viable than the case about some country that was isolated for past 15 years, and PPT slides of "evidence" of WMD, and great Republican Army with 1948 rifles and sticks... Give me a break -- N.K. showed us teeth and we took them off the CNN and Fox News... It is shame how the majority of this population buys whatever the Gov't sells them, then a few years later realize how stupid it was...but it is too late now.
I hate wars, and what we have been doing lately (past 10-15 years, after the fall of USSR) is not justified at all. Remember -- history repeats itself and no other Power in the history was able to control the World (for a long time). I fear for our children...in many ways -- already you cannot mention you're an American outside of the USA, Social Security will be gone, debt will be 15 trillion $, Polution, GLobal Warming, blah, blah, blah...we're setting them up for a rough ride...
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      10-02-2006, 10:49 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Throughout history peace has been achieved by defeating enemies in a war. It has never been achieved through dialogue. Dialogue just delays the inevitable usually causing more casualties than if military force was used at the beginning of a conflict. Imagine how many millions of people would have been saved if Germany was stopped initially instead of appeasing them for so long.
Again, how can you compare the war against Germany (WW2) with the war in Iraq??? A WW2, where Germany attacked the whole Europe, Japan attacked Asia and us. And you compare that to something that was all but evident to happen -- Iraq was under sanctions for 15 years, people were poor there. Hussein had to keep them that way to stay in power. He did not care about the WMD to attack us or our alies, maybe to use them to control the situation inside Iraq (as he supposedly did). There was no evidence and is proven not to be that he was connected with the "terrorists". The rest of the world (except Britain and some ass kissing little nations) saw that but we did not care -- first thing we did is we broke the rule and attacked a sovereign nation. Was Hussein a good guy. HEll no, but did nothing bad to us and I never saw a slightest evidence that he planned to do so. Did ne hate us? Yes, so do many others from 7/8 of Europe to 90% of Asia and the rest. Do they hate us because we have this "great life here"??? That you may hear on CNN and Fox, but hell...many other countries live far better than we do.
In the end, previously mentioned ass kissers (pretty much) pulled out (Spain, Poland, Italy...), and us and Blair are alone in this war, spending tens of billions of $ every month instead of putting it somewhere else.
Do I feel safer now, 5 years after the 9-11 -- not at all, we're always a step behind them.
Now, there are many theories about the 9-11 event, and I don't read them and don't believe in those I read. But it is sad that Bush and co. used that tragedy as the excuse to do what they do in the world.

Again, I fear for the future of my children. I am getting old and will (probably) not feel the consequences of all this, but...
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      10-03-2006, 05:11 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i
Again, how can you compare the war against Germany (WW2) with the war in Iraq??? A WW2, where Germany attacked the whole Europe, Japan attacked Asia and us. And you compare that to something that was all but evident to happen -- Iraq was under sanctions for 15 years, people were poor there. Hussein had to keep them that way to stay in power. He did not care about the WMD to attack us or our alies, maybe to use them to control the situation inside Iraq (as he supposedly did). There was no evidence and is proven not to be that he was connected with the "terrorists". The rest of the world (except Britain and some ass kissing little nations) saw that but we did not care -- first thing we did is we broke the rule and attacked a sovereign nation. Was Hussein a good guy. HEll no, but did nothing bad to us and I never saw a slightest evidence that he planned to do so. Did ne hate us? Yes, so do many others from 7/8 of Europe to 90% of Asia and the rest. Do they hate us because we have this "great life here"??? That you may hear on CNN and Fox, but hell...many other countries live far better than we do.
In the end, previously mentioned ass kissers (pretty much) pulled out (Spain, Poland, Italy...), and us and Blair are alone in this war, spending tens of billions of $ every month instead of putting it somewhere else.
Do I feel safer now, 5 years after the 9-11 -- not at all, we're always a step behind them.
Now, there are many theories about the 9-11 event, and I don't read them and don't believe in those I read. But it is sad that Bush and co. used that tragedy as the excuse to do what they do in the world.

Again, I fear for the future of my children. I am getting old and will (probably) not feel the consequences of all this, but...
Thank you, well said!
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