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      09-06-2006, 12:23 PM   #1
nostrum09
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Approach On The War In Iraq

After reading through a number of these threads, mostly dealing with how to deal with terrorism, and after reading two articles on cnn.com today (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/...oll/index.html and http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/...ats/index.html it got me wondering how certain people on this forum would respond to my inquiry about the following...

Where do the US and its allies go from here on the war in Iraq? Do we stick it out to the end, and if so, just what would the end be? Do we withdraw and offer minimal support for the native security forces?

I'm asking this here because there are several members who are clearly on opposite sides of debates of this nature but who do articulate their responses very well, and I'm curious about their opinions on this matter, and I think this is potentially a more pressing issue than the overall fight against terrorism (of course, one can argue that the war in Iraq goes hand in hand with the fight against terrorism -- I tend not to agree, however). Afterall, the number of US military deaths in the war in Iraq just recently surpassed the total number of people killed in the 9/11 attacks, minus the number of terrorists themselves (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...03/death.toll/).

So towards the goal of a hopefully spirited and enlightening debate, I shall put forth the opinion of a 25 year old who has never served in the military in any capacity and who is a social liberal.

Withdraw our troops from Iraq. Taking the situation as it stands now, we are in a country that is rapidly progressing towards civil war (if it hasn't gotten there already). Iraq's religiously divided population is fighting amongst themselves as well as against the US and its allies. Our current administration has made it its goal to see the establishment of a democracy in Iraq and a native army/security force strong enough to support the country on its own (or perhaps with extrememly limited influence from other nations). But can this really happen? How can a democracy exist in a nation whose own population would rather have it be a theocracy?

Would it be right for the US to exit now? Some would argue no. We went into the country and we should finish the job. But at what cost? How many American (and other) lives must be / will be lost before we can say that Iraq is now a stable democracy? If we were to leave, the country would most likely fall back into a state resembling something similar to the Hussein era -- a theocracy which would viciously persecute those in the political minority. One could argue that the country would be no worse off than it was before we invaded -- after all, Hussein is gone.

How would the world judge the US for exiting? Would this be a victory for terrorism? Terrorism exists not so much to destroy the US (I don't think anyone could say terrorism could do that w/o the assistance of state government) but as to undermine our feeling of security and confidence, emotionally, physically and economically. What if we were to take the countless billions of dollars that will be spent on this war and diverted it back to spending on the US? Assistance for the poor, better access to medical coverage, better schools and funding for higher education, etc. etc. Wouldn't that make people feel more comfortable and secure in their daily lives -- exactly the opposite of what terroism seeks to do?

What then is wrong with admitting that we made a mistake? Is the US so arrogant that we can't admit failure or misguided decisions (some European nations certainly may agree). In our personal lives, the ability to admit that we made a mistake and to reverse course is what allows us to succeed, rather than forging blindly ahead, regardless of the consequences.

So in summary, I believe we should exit Iraq sooner rather than later, even if we don't meet our originally stated goal. Why? Because we will almost certainly never meet it, and we were misguided to enter Iraq in the first place. It reeks of imperialism to suggest that we should go into the world to spread democracy, even if most of us (myself included) believe that democracy is one of the better forms of goverment around. A nation (much like our own in the late 1700s) will decide when they are ready for a new form of government. It was simply wrong for us to invade Iraq, and we should recognize this mistake.

[Sorry for the long-windedness! Hopefully it's coherent enough, though I'm sure I'll have to explain/elaborate some things that I have right in my head but can't always put to paper easily!]
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      09-08-2006, 04:43 PM   #2
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First of all your question "How can a democracy exist in a nation whose own population would rather have it be a theocracy?". Is extremely incorrect and misleading. It is a very small percentage of the population who would want that, and most of those people are from Iran and Syria, not Iraqis.

Secondly, you would have answers to all of your questions by:
1. understanding the enemy
2. understanding history

Some of your statements are so foolish that it is clear you have understanding of neither.

You said: "one can argue that the war in Iraq goes hand in hand with the fight against terrorism -- I tend not to agree, however"

This is clearly a war against Islamic fascists who have 1 goal. That goal is to convert everyone to Islam or kill them. This is not me saying this. This is the enemy telling us this. Iraq is just 1 front in this global war. Thousands of terrorists have been killed by allied forces in Iraq. Most of the terrorists are coming to Iraq from Iran and Syria. Sure there is sectarian violence (which has subsided a great deal), but most attacks against allied forces are from terrorists who are coming from all over the middle east to fight the US. If we were not in Iraq, said terrorists would be elsewhere. The fact is because of Iraq, the terrorists are on the run and have not been able to attack us in our homeland.

You said: "the number of US military deaths in the war in Iraq just recently surpassed the total number of people killed in the 9/11 attacks, minus the number of terrorists themselves"

What is your point?

You suggest we should leave Iraq. If you know how our enemy thinks this would be a grave mistake. When Reagan pulled out our troops from Lebanon after the terrorist attacks in 1982, and when Clinton withdrew our troops from Somalia following the "blackhawk down" incident this gave so much resolve to our enemy. Interviews of captured terrorists, as well as Bin Laden's own words showed that they perceive America as a paper tiger. They believe America can be controlled by inflicting a small amount of casualties on our troops, because the American people do not have the will to fight. Captured terrorists have said over and over again that they have miscalculated us since 9-11 because we are on the offensive and not slowing down. No matter how it is perceived by us, withdrawing from Iraq before finishing the job will be a victory for the terrorists and will give them resolve more than anything you can imagine. What has history shown they do with this resolve. They build up their forces and attack us!

You said:"What if we were to take the countless billions of dollars that will be spent on this war and diverted it back to spending on the US? Assistance for the poor, better access to medical coverage, better schools and funding for higher education, etc. etc. Wouldn't that make people feel more comfortable and secure in their daily lives -- exactly the opposite of what terrorism seeks to do?"

This would be wonderful in a perfect world. This is not a perfect world. If you do this our enemy will laugh at us and come and kill us.

You said:"What then is wrong with admitting that we made a mistake?"

Nothing, but you are assuming we did make a mistake. Only history will tell, and it is far to early to decide.

You said:"I believe we should exit Iraq sooner rather than later, even if we don't meet our originally stated goal. Why? Because we will almost certainly never meet it, and we were misguided to enter Iraq in the first place."

Thank God you are not running our country. What a defeatist attitude. Have you ever played sports or done anything competitive in your life? This statement sounds like a someone who likes to quit. Thankfully, we have a leader who stands by his convictions and acts like a leader and does not say well we probably wont win anyway so fuck it lets quit.

What do you do for a living if you don't mind me asking. You admit you are a liberal and never been in the military which is obvious from your views, but it seems you have lived quite a sheltered life and have never had any bad experiences. I really don't mean any offense, its just an observation. I harbor no ill will to you no matter how naive your thoughts are.
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      09-08-2006, 05:36 PM   #3
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I refer you to here: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0911-01.htm. This site gives data on the result of a poll taken of Iraqi citizens regarding the involvement of the US in their affairs and the attempt to set up a democracy in their nation.

The war in Iraq may now be against Islamic fascists, but that wasn't our intention. Originally it was to depose a dictator supposedly in possession of WMD. Only now has it become a war against Islamic fascists because of our continued meddling in Iraq (as well as other places, I cannot discount that). A war started by us against terrorism is different that one where terrorism comes to us in someone else's country. As is demonstrated by continued attacks around the world (Bali, London), terrorists are still plotting, despite their attacks against us in Iraq.

I can certainly agree that terrorists would consider it a victory if we were to withdraw from Iraq. But if we were to take money saved by not expending it on Iraq, we could use that to more aggressively defend our borders and/or go after terrorists elsewhere.

With respect to the cost of the war and using it for domestic improvement, a good portion could certainly be used to, as I mentioned above, go towards defending our borders.

Agreed on your point that only history will tell.

I am very competitive (not so much sports-wise, but intellectually and professionally, yes). And part of being a wise and effective leader is knowning when to change course. I'm not saying that we should pull out and hand over our country to the terrorists. I'm simply saying that a change of course, where we focus more on domestic issues and security, would be a good thing. If I asked you to take a scalding hot pot off the stove, and you touched it and it burned your hand, would you continue to hold it? No, you'd go back and get a pot-holder! I hope...

I am 25 and work in the Information Technology field. I hold a degree in Economics with a minor in Philosophy. I wanted to state that I am a liberal and have never served in the military because that is important. I can surmise that you have served (or continue to serve), and I respect that. PLEASE do not think that anything I say is meant to demean you in any way. You do something that I definitely could not do myself, and I respect YOU for that. I have not led a sheltered life per se, but I cannot say that it has been a tough life. There has been one exception, which tough I care not to bring up at the moment, could potentially be surmised from my posts thus far.
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      09-08-2006, 07:24 PM   #4
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I don't think anything you say is meant to demean anyone. If you are an academic, you of all people should know that polls can be manipulated very easily based on how they are asked, when they are asked, who they are asked to amongst other things. Anyone can make a poll that will give them the result they are looking for. CNN and Zogby have a strong anti-war anti-conservative agenda so it would not surprise me they would have a poll show that Iraqi's don't want us there. Interviewing 600 people in a combat zone is hardly a comparative sample of the Iraqi population. CNN never shows the other side of things. If you believe "the Path to 9-11" should have a disclaimer, this poll should have 3 disclaimers.
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      09-08-2006, 07:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nostrum09
The war in Iraq may now be against Islamic fascists, but that wasn't our intention. Originally it was to depose a dictator supposedly in possession of WMD...
WMD was only 1 reason. It has been the battle cry of the left. Although since there has been evidence that some WMD's were found, and most were moved by Russia to Syria before the war, the Democrat leaders have not been crying no WMDs much anymore. The reasons outlined by the Bush administration before the war were many. They included enforcing many UN resolutions which Iraq had been in violation of, enforcement of the cease fire agreement from the first Gulf War which Iraq had violated by the daily firing of anti-aircraft artillery and surface to air missiles on US Air Force aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones. WMDs were only part of that which may or may not have been correct looking back at it with hind site, but no one including the Democratic leadership wanted to take
a chance after 9-11.
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      09-10-2006, 11:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
WMD was only 1 reason. It has been the battle cry of the left. Although since there has been evidence that some WMD's were found, and most were moved by Russia to Syria before the war, the Democrat leaders have not been crying no WMDs much anymore. The reasons outlined by the Bush administration before the war were many. They included enforcing many UN resolutions which Iraq had been in violation of, enforcement of the cease fire agreement from the first Gulf War which Iraq had violated by the daily firing of anti-aircraft artillery and surface to air missiles on US Air Force aircraft patrolling the no-fly zones. WMDs were only part of that which may or may not have been correct looking back at it with hind site, but no one including the Democratic leadership wanted to take
a chance after 9-11.
Interesting arguement. I find it fascinating that many neo-cons refer to violations with UN resolutions as a reason to go to war, at the same time they have very little to no respect for the UN itself.

You say that the war in Iraq is a war against Islamic extremism. It did turn out to be that way, but the former regime in Iraq was secular and did an effective job a keeping relative peace among religious factions, but with an iron fist. The war created a vacuum of authority under which foreigners (Syrians, Iranians, Pakistanis, etc.) could enter Iraq and engage their enemy in battle (using that term loosely b/c their is nothing more cowardly than suicide bombings). Iraq didn't pose any immediate threat to the west, but has succeeded in costing the US taxpayer multi-billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and most importantly spread resources too thin to give proper attention to the real target in Afghanistan.

The administration made a huge blunder in forgetting history when they decided enter Iraq. The Nazis made that mistake when they decide to engage the Soviets on the eastern front thus spreading their resources too thin and becoming bogged down. The US should have waited until Afghanistan was firmly transformed and bin laden eliminated before they turned to another target. Additionally, the Soviet military machine of the late 70's/early 80's was unable to take and hold Afghanistan. The coalition should have used the Soviet experiences in that region to gain an understanding of the difficulty in conducting operations. I believe they had an understanding of the terrain and the challenges that presents, but limited knowledge of the way warfare is conducted when it comes to warlords and the opiuim trade. Iraq will go down in military history as a "how not to". I have no solution on how to fix things. The status quo will be maintained and it will be the next administration's responsiblity to fix the mess.
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      09-10-2006, 12:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
Iraq will go down in military history as a "how not to". I have no solution on how to fix things.
First of all its pretty amazing how you can predict how history will view this war. Secondly, those of you on the left never have solutions. Instead, you are the best Monday morning quarterbacks, and complain about everything unless you are in power. All we hear from the Democrats is complaint after complaint with zero discussion on how to help. The fact is those on the left want us to fail because that is the quickest way for them to regain power.

As for Iraq, none of us really know all the reasons for going into war. None of us have access to all of the classified information and intelligence available to the Commander in Chief. I suspect, and this is just my theory, that an important reason we wanted a regime change and a friendly government in Iraq was that our leaders realize the greater threat Iran will pose in the future. I think it was the plan all along to surround Iran (Afghanistan and Iraq) to contain them and act as a deterrent from them attacking. I believe the administration thought it would be easier to secure Iraq, and did not anticipate all of the Iranians and Syrians flocking to Iraq to fight us there. I think that Iraq was the easiest threat to topple at the time, and our leaders on the right and left knew we would eventually have to deal with them, so they decided to do it. Iran is a very dangerous threat, and us being in their backyard and front yard makes it a lot easier to deal with this dangerous threat.
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Last edited by pawarrant; 09-11-2006 at 11:10 AM.
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      09-10-2006, 12:53 PM   #8
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[quote=pawarrantFirst of all its pretty amazing how you can predict how history will view this war. Secondly, those of you on the left never have solutions[/QUOTE]

In your world, everything is black and white. Conservative (pro-war)=good and Liberal (anti-war)=bad. You don't know me and don't where I stand on political/social issues, and yet you automatically catagorize me as a liberal. Whatever stand I take on the war has nothing to do with being either liberal or conservative. Mistakes are made on all parts of the political spectrum, and this war just happened to be made on right side. Making blanket statements like those on the left never have any solutions do nothing but weaken your arguement. It was a Repulican governement that put the country in this position in the first place and it is their responsibility to find a solution.
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      09-10-2006, 01:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws
In your world, everything is black and white. Conservative (pro-war)=good and Liberal (anti-war)=bad. You don't know me and don't where I stand on political/social issues, and yet you automatically catagorize me as a liberal. Whatever stand I take on the war has nothing to do with being either liberal or conservative. Mistakes are made on all parts of the political spectrum, and this war just happened to be made on right side. Making blanket statements like those on the left never have any solutions do nothing but weaken your arguement. It was a Repulican governement that put the country in this position in the first place and it is their responsibility to find a solution.
$20 bucks says your a liberal.
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      09-10-2006, 01:46 PM   #10
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BTW your making an incorrect assumption by saying conservatives are for war. We are for protecting our way of life. War is sometimes a necessary part of this.
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      09-10-2006, 10:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
$20 bucks says your a liberal.
There's that labelling thing again... I have voted conservative and liberal in the past depending on the candidate and the times.
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      09-11-2006, 07:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
I don't think anything you say is meant to demean anyone. If you are an academic, you of all people should know that polls can be manipulated very easily based on how they are asked, when they are asked, who they are asked to amongst other things. Anyone can make a poll that will give them the result they are looking for. CNN and Zogby have a strong anti-war anti-conservative agenda so it would not surprise me they would have a poll show that Iraqi's don't want us there. Interviewing 600 people in a combat zone is hardly a comparative sample of the Iraqi population. CNN never shows the other side of things. If you believe "the Path to 9-11" should have a disclaimer, this poll should have 3 disclaimers.
You are correct -- polls can be manipulated to their author's desire (look at CMD's poll!). Unfortunately, for someone not in the government or in the military, the information on which I can base my decisions and beliefs must come from whatever sources I can find. I'm sure that if I were to look hard enough, I could find a poll of 600 Iraqis who strongly support our presence. Faced with such conflicting information, all I can do then is follow my gut. And my gut instinct is that the Iraqis would rather not have us there, and that they would prefer to solve these issues on their own, using their own methods. After all, for a nation of arguably very proud people, who potentially have an anti-Western bias, I can't imagine that they would be happy with a Western nation interfering in their affairs.
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      09-19-2006, 09:17 AM   #13
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Our actions have created a huge amount of instability in Iraq and Afghanistan

We have a duty to the ordinary people of these countries to maintain a military presence until they can re-build.

It would be better if this could be by way of an international force, but unfortunately there was not a broad consensus in favour of the invasion (or Iraq at least).
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      09-19-2006, 11:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
It would be better if this could be by way of an international force, but unfortunately there was not a broad consensus in favour of the invasion (or Iraq at least).



It is sad that this lie is still being spread. There has been huge international support for the war that has been under reported by the mainstream media. These are the great and brave nations who contributed actual military troops (boots on the ground) in Iraq during and since the invasion of Iraq in 2003 in order of troop strength.

Nations with troops currently on the ground in Iraq in harms way
USA
UK
S. Korea
Italy
Australia
Poland
Romania
Georgia
Denmark
El Salvador
Azerbaijan
Mongolia
Albania
Latvia
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Lithuania
Armenia
Bosnia & Herzegoviania
Estonia
Macedonia
Kazakhstan
Moldova
Fiji

Nations who had troops on the ground in Iraq in harms way, but have since pulled out either because their mission was over or for political reasons:

Canada
Japan
Bulgaria - withdrew to Kuwait
Ukraine - withdrew to Kuwait
Nicaragua
Spain
Honduras
Norway
Dominican Republic
Philippines
Thailand
Hungary
New Zeland
Portugal
Singapore
Netherlands
Tonga
Iceland

Many of these nations have had troops killed or wounded in Iraq. How do you think these brave soldiers feel when their efforts are continuously overlooked by the left just so they can say nobody is on Bush and Blair's side in this conflict. The fact is that our real friends are doing the right thing. The notable coward governments who have not supported the coalition of the willing are: France, Russia, Germany. I bet if any of those nations required help the USA and it's allies will be there for them. There are several also nations which have contributed to the coalition of the willing in non military ways as well. If you do not believe me contact the State Departments of these nations and check the following links:

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...030327-10.html
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      09-20-2006, 05:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
The notable coward governments who have not supported the coalition of the willing are: France, Russia, Germany.
Whoa ... calm down there ....

Let me explain my remark....

The support I was referring to was mainly in respect of the various UN resolutions under discussion prior to the invasion.

The UK desperately wanted UN backing to the invasion. Politically this was very important to Blair. Bush had already stated that he was going to invade no matter what the UN said.

France, Russia and Germany blocked the resolution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...regarding_Iraq

The 'broad international consensus' I was talking about was in respect of the UN and the G8.

There is no UN consensus on this. Of the G8 - 3 members wanted no part of this - 2 of which are significant economic forces in europe (Germany, France and Russia).

Of the remaining G8 members Canada and Japan are no longer involved. I don't know about Canada, but Japan's involvement was not massive to begin with and there is certainly no political will to continue with it.

Spain of course has pulled well away after the madrid bombings effectively brought down their government on the issue of terrorism and their involvement in Iraq.

By broad consensus then what I meant was that key members of the G8 and NATO as well as permanant members of the UN security council have either backed away from this conflict or did not support it in the first place.

I said this in the context that I believe our countries actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have destabilised their societies and that we have a moral obligation to fix this before we pack up and go home. On the whole I am supportive of the war in Iraq, but not the political manuevreing that led up to it.

The re-building of Iraq would be easier with a UN or NATO force, which was not the 'aggressor'. Unfortunately (and it is unfortunate) the lack of outright support from key members of those organisations effectively rules this out and means that we have to press on and do the job ourselves.

As to the governments that opted out 'coward' is not appropriate. They didn't want this fight for political reasons. Cowardice does not come into it.

The people who have decided to take our countries to war are not risking their own lives. There are neither coward or hero governments.
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      09-20-2006, 12:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
The support I was referring to was mainly in respect of the various UN resolutions under discussion prior to the invasion.

The UK desperately wanted UN backing to the invasion. Politically this was very important to Blair. Bush had already stated that he was going to invade no matter what the UN said.

France, Russia and Germany blocked the resolution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...regarding_Iraq
That resolution was moot since there had already been a resolution in November of 2002 which was passed unanimously.
http://www.answers.com/topic/united-...esolution-1441
As far as the enforcement of this resolution, when in history has the UN effectively enforced any of its resolutions and installed any kind of peace in the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by needforspeed
As to the governments that opted out 'coward' is not appropriate. They didn't want this fight for political reasons. Cowardice does not come into it.
Funny you should mention this. The "political reasons" you mention were later found out to be that France, Russia, and Germany were the 3 nations implicated in corruption scandals regarding the UN's oil for food program in Iraq. Those 3 nations did not want regime change because they were being paid off by Saddam Hussein. The gravy train stopped when the US invaded, knocking him out of power. As far as your remarks about cowardice, I'll give you that Germany and Russia are not cowards they are just corrupt, but France is a corrupt coward.
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      09-20-2006, 02:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Funny you should mention this. The "political reasons" you mention were later found out to be that France, Russia, and Germany were the 3 nations implicated in corruption scandals regarding the UN's oil for food program in Iraq. Those 3 nations did not want regime change because they were being paid off by Saddam Hussein. The gravy train stopped when the US invaded, knocking him out of power. As far as your remarks about cowardice, I'll give you that Germany and Russia are not cowards they are just corrupt, but France is a corrupt coward.
There was certainly too much familiarity between Saddam Hussein and the French, but don't forget - both of our countries sold him weapons and dealt with him knowing full well the sort of regime he ran.

There are political reasons why countries did not back the invasion, this was a controversial campaign and a lot people were against it. Blair could probably have fought another term if he had handled Iraq differently - it's the one area of his premacy that has been difficult for him to manage.

Anyway ... there is a school of though that the french are 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' I'm not sure I would go as far as you but their opposition to the invasion did seem to have an economic bias.

As to the UN resolution - as I said - it was moot for the US because Bush had made his mind up and determined that war was legal without it. The UK wanted it as did other countries ....
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      09-20-2006, 08:24 PM   #18
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Canada was never involved with this, thank God.
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      09-20-2006, 09:43 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jaws
Canada was never involved with this, thank God.
Actually, "There have been a small number of Canadian military personnel embedded in American and allied units. That's been the case since the beginning of the war. Nothing has changed on that front," according to Prime Minister Stephen Harper on March 23, 2006. Also, Canadian JTF-2, RCMP, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, US Special Operation Command, and British Special Forces worked together in an operation inside Iraq to free some "Christian Peacemaker" hostages in March 2006. Thank God Canada has some heroes.
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      09-22-2006, 07:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawarrant
Actually, "There have been a small number of Canadian military personnel embedded in American and allied units. That's been the case since the beginning of the war. Nothing has changed on that front," according to Prime Minister Stephen Harper on March 23, 2006. Also, Canadian JTF-2, RCMP, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, US Special Operation Command, and British Special Forces worked together in an operation inside Iraq to free some "Christian Peacemaker" hostages in March 2006. Thank God Canada has some heroes.
Here's the spin.... these troops are nothing but observers and not under Canadian command, therefore Canada is not part of the mission.

The heros are in Afghanistan. You probably didn't even know that Canadian forces were there. This is an operation I do support. http://www.cbc.ca/cp/national/060903/n090324.html
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      09-23-2006, 06:51 AM   #21
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Reading this thread brings one thing to mind.

Has anyone else noticed that conservatives pretty much all say the same EXACT thing. Its like they are robots repeating the same thing that their central organized center has determined. They will keep repeating this statement until its true.

Reading some of these posts sounds like bill bennet radio or any other conservative radio station across the country. I cannot believe that all these millions of americans came to the same exact conclusions and terminology on their own and just happen to be of the same mindset of their own thinking.

My conclusion, conservatives are generally mindless sheep that follow what some more powerful, louder, more agressive conservative has told them. Notice how the moment bush mentioned saddam has WMD, the next day every conservative and newspaper repeated these terms over and over until every moron in this country beleved it to be true.

Now because of sagging approval ratings this term islamic fascism appears out of the blue one day and notice every one of these conservatives use this term as if its a dictionary definition of something (its not, its a made up term to use your racist tendencies as a way to re-organize you into the bush fold. You know, keep you happy with him cause those evil crazy terrorists are after you).

This mentality works perfectly in the military where you need soldiers to believe you without question so they will not be scared to die, etc.

But in social planning/decision making/foreign policy, this is a dangerous mob that basicly has no independant thought process, so it can't and shouldn't be relied upon for anything in this realm. Hopefully the reigns of power over our foreign policy will soon come into the hands of someone with intelligence rather then rhetoric (republican or democrat).

I think this pandering of our security to the whims of the unthinking mob has taken us down a very dangerous dangerous path, eerily where rome went. You know those crazy mindless barbarians they were fighting turned out not to be so wild, crazy and mindless. In fact we drive cars from their decedants, lol.
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      09-23-2006, 11:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalS2k
Reading this thread brings one thing to mind.

Has anyone else noticed that conservatives pretty much all say the same EXACT thing. Its like they are robots repeating the same thing that their central organized center has determined. They will keep repeating this statement until its true.

Reading some of these posts sounds like bill bennet radio or any other conservative radio station across the country. I cannot believe that all these millions of americans came to the same exact conclusions and terminology on their own and just happen to be of the same mindset of their own thinking.

My conclusion, conservatives are generally mindless sheep that follow what some more powerful, louder, more agressive conservative has told them. Notice how the moment bush mentioned saddam has WMD, the next day every conservative and newspaper repeated these terms over and over until every moron in this country beleved it to be true.

Now because of sagging approval ratings this term islamic fascism appears out of the blue one day and notice every one of these conservatives use this term as if its a dictionary definition of something (its not, its a made up term to use your racist tendencies as a way to re-organize you into the bush fold. You know, keep you happy with him cause those evil crazy terrorists are after you).

This mentality works perfectly in the military where you need soldiers to believe you without question so they will not be scared to die, etc.

But in social planning/decision making/foreign policy, this is a dangerous mob that basicly has no independant thought process, so it can't and shouldn't be relied upon for anything in this realm. Hopefully the reigns of power over our foreign policy will soon come into the hands of someone with intelligence rather then rhetoric (republican or democrat).

I think this pandering of our security to the whims of the unthinking mob has taken us down a very dangerous dangerous path, eerily where rome went. You know those crazy mindless barbarians they were fighting turned out not to be so wild, crazy and mindless. In fact we drive cars from their decedants, lol.

Very well said.
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