Oil

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by H Bomb

which one is better the Edge or the TWS??

also isn't it a type of blend and not fully synthetic??

thanks

They're essentially the same thing NOW, it's just that the EDGE's formulation has evolved over the years from a different synthetic formulation.

The two oils are generally sold in different world markets, so in many places you only have a choice of buying one or the other. In Europe you have the choice between TWS and EDGE, but here in the United States we only have TWS. (although in theory you could import the EDGE)

Licensing agreements are the reason these two oils even exist.


BTW: The TWS & EDGE 10w-60 are Group IV/V PAO-Ester based Fully synthetic motor oils. (with a specailly formulated additive package for high revving engines like the M3)


For those of you who don't quite understand why any of this is important...


Let me explain a few things about how oil products are made.


All motor oil products are comprised of two parts:

a) The base oil stock (Group III, Group IV, Group V, or a combination of those groups like the TWS & EDGE)

b) An additive package (anti-corrosion, anti-shear, anti-foaming, anti-sludge, friction modifiers, thickening or thinning agents, etc.)

The base oil comprises 80-90% of the oil by volume, and the additives the remaining 10-20%.

There are five groups of base oils on the market: Group I, II, III, IV and V.

As the group number increases, the overall quality, purity, and performance of the base oil improves. Using that criteria, Group V is theoretically the best. ('on paper' anyway)

Choosing a pure Ester-based Group V motor oil would seem like the easy (no-brainer) choice based on that methodology, but as with many things...it's not that simple. (as I will explain in a minute)

Group I, II, & III base stocks are refined from actual crude oil. (sour or sweet crude pumped out of the ground) This un-refined crude oil contains heavy tars, asphalts, waxes, aromatics and other nasty stuff that needs to be removed. These crude oil base stocks are 'cleaned up' by oil refineries to transform them into usable products that are fit for use in internal combustion engines. Oil refineries do their best to 'purify' these lower end oil base stocks through the use of proven oil industrial methods. (such as hydro-cracking, stripping, blending, and several filtering stages)

The group III base oils are of course the best of the first three base stock categories. However, even heavily refined Group III base stocks still contain variably-sized molecules and some contaminants that can result in sludge, varnish and other nasty deposits in your engine.

Also, the quality of any particular Group III base oil brand, will vary greatly due to differences in the feedstocks (sweet or sour crude) and the particular refining methods utilized at the major oil refineries today.

Shell Oil Co. refines their Group III oil products slightly different than Ashland Oil Co. (Valvoiline), or Exxon, or, Chevron, or BP, etc, etc, etc.

Side note: Some highly-refined Group III (crude-based) oil products do meet the 'technical' definition of word synthetic. But be advised these products are not equal to the performance of a true Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester) base stock synthetic oils.

Now true synthetic motor oil products are a different animal altogether...

Synthetic oils are manufactured using pure Group IV Polyalphaolefins (PAO) and Group V diesters and polyolesters (Ester) base oils. These synthetic oils are actually “man-made” by using chemical compounds that contian no conventional crude oil products. They have a synthesized uniform molecular structure, that significantly improves the efficiency and performance of synthetic oil products. (when compared to their petroleum crude-based motor oil competitors)

True man-made synthetic motor oils have lower coefficients of friction (less power robbing drag on the internal engine components), improved thermal (heat) capacity, a higher resistance to shearing and windage (to maintain protection factors at high engine speeds), the ability to cover a very wide oil viscosity range (10w-60), and a lower pour-point (for excellent cold weather anti-friction performance), are just a few of the properties that petroleum (crude based) motor oil products simply cannot match.

Finally, true synthetic oils have no waxes, tars, or other contaminants that will lead to a thick heavy sludge or varnish build-up inside your engine.

In addition to all that, the Castrol TWS & EDGE 10w-60 oils have a specially formulated (proprietary) synthetic oil additive package that was co-developed by BMW Motorsport engineers and Castrol engineers working together. (over the course of several years) Through the combined efforts of these two resources, the engineers were able to tailor the performance to the specific lubrication requirements of our high revving (8000+ rpm) racing-derived engines.

That makes the TWS/EDGE 10w-60 synthetic motor oils unique, since no other 'alternate' motor oil brand can beat that kind of highly-specialized R&D.

While synthetic motor oils and lubricants are of course more expensive per liter (or quart)...

When you consider the protection factors and performance they provide for your $20,000 S65B40 4.0-liter V8 engine, (including the longer oil drain intervals), it's pretty clear to me that you would have to be nuts to go "off the reservation" and select a cheap substitute just to save a few bucks.

For my engine, it's Castrol 10w-60 TWS. Period.

[Trier Germany]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

They're essentially the same thing NOW, it's just that the EDGE's formulation has evolved over the years from a different synthetic formulation.

The two oils are generally sold in different world markets, so in many places you only have a choice of buying one or the other. In Europe you have the choice between TWS and EDGE, but here in the United States we only have TWS. (although in theory you could import the EDGE)

Licensing agreements are the reason these two oils even exist.


BTW: The TWS & EDGE 10w-60 are Group IV/V PAO-Ester based Fully synthetic motor oils. (with a specailly formulated additive package for high revving engines like the M3)


For those of you who don't quite understand why any of this is important...


Let me explain a few things about how oil products are made.


All motor oil products are comprised of two parts:

a) The base oil stock (Group III, Group IV, Group V, or a combination of those groups like the TWS & EDGE)

b) An additive package (anti-corrosion, anti-shear, anti-foaming, anti-sludge, friction modifiers, thickening or thinning agents, etc.)

The base oil comprises 80-90% of the oil by volume, and the additives the remaining 10-20%.

There are five groups of base oils on the market: Group I, II, III, IV and V.

As the group number increases, the overall quality, purity, and performance of the base oil improves. Using that criteria, Group V is theoretically the best. ('on paper' anyway)

Choosing a pure Ester-based Group V motor oil would seem like the easy (no-brainer) choice based on that methodology, but as with many things...it's not that simple. (as I will explain in a minute)

Group I, II, & III base stocks are refined from actual crude oil. (sour or sweet crude pumped out of the ground) This un-refined crude oil contains heavy tars, asphalts, waxes, aromatics and other nasty stuff that needs to be removed. These crude oil base stocks are 'cleaned up' by oil refineries to transform them into usable products that are fit for use in internal combustion engines. Oil refineries do their best to 'purify' these lower end oil base stocks through the use of proven oil industrial methods. (such as hydro-cracking, stripping, blending, and several filtering stages)

The group III base oils are of course the best of the first three base stock categories. However, even heavily refined Group III base stocks still contain variably-sized molecules and some contaminants that can result in sludge, varnish and other nasty deposits in your engine.

Also, the quality of any particular Group III base oil brand, will vary greatly due to differences in the feedstocks (sweet or sour crude) and the particular refining methods utilized at the major oil refineries today.

Shell Oil Co. refines their Group III oil products slightly different than Ashland Oil Co. (Valvoiline), or Exxon, or, Chevron, or BP, etc, etc, etc.

Side note: Some highly-refined Group III (crude-based) oil products do meet the 'technical' definition of word synthetic. But be advised these products are not equal to the performance of a true Group IV (PAO) or Group V (Ester) base stock synthetic oils.

Now true synthetic motor oil products are a different animal altogether...

Synthetic oils are manufactured using pure Group IV Polyalphaolefins (PAO) and Group V diesters and polyolesters (Ester) base oils. These synthetic oils are actually “man-made” by using chemical compounds that contian no conventional crude oil products. They have a synthesized uniform molecular structure, that significantly improves the efficiency and performance of synthetic oil products. (when compared to their petroleum crude-based motor oil competitors)

True man-made synthetic motor oils have lower coefficients of friction (less power robbing drag on the internal engine components), improved thermal (heat) capacity, a higher resistance to shearing and windage (to maintain protection factors at high engine speeds), the ability to cover a very wide oil viscosity range (10w-60), and a lower pour-point (for excellent cold weather anti-friction performance), are just a few of the properties that petroleum (crude based) motor oil products simply cannot match.

Finally, true synthetic oils have no waxes, tars, or other contaminants that will lead to a thick heavy sludge or varnish build-up inside your engine.

In addition to all that, the Castrol TWS & EDGE 10w-60 oils have a specially formulated (proprietary) synthetic oil additive package that was co-developed by BMW Motorsport engineers and Castrol engineers working together. (over the course of several years) Through the combined efforts of these two resources, the engineers were able to tailor the performance to the specific lubrication requirements of our high revving (8000+ rpm) racing-derived engines.

That makes the TWS/EDGE 10w-60 synthetic motor oils unique, since no other 'alternate' motor oil brand can beat that kind of highly-specialized R&D.

While synthetic motor oils and lubricants are of course more expensive per liter (or quart)...

When you consider the protection factors and performance they provide for your $20,000 S65B40 4.0-liter V8 engine, (including the longer oil drain intervals), it's pretty clear to me that you would have to be nuts to go "off the reservation" and select a cheap substitute just to save a few bucks.

For my engine, it's Castrol 10w-60 TWS. Period.

Lemans,

Well said. In Germany you can get TWS at the dealer and Castrol Formula RS 10-W60 at pretty much any shop that sells oil. They even come in 5 liter containers.

[Radiation Joe]

Redline does make a 10W-60.

Clicky

[Nawaaz]

Thread moved to appropriate section!

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

Redline does make a 10W-60.

Clicky

Here's why using the RED LINE 10w-60 oil is a bad idea...

While that oil appears to be a suitable replacement for the TWS (on the surface), the truth is that oil is not API approved.

While RED LINE does claim that it's "recommended" for API SM/SL/SJ/SH/SG/CF and ACEA A3/B4...RED LINE oils are not, and have never been API approved. (officially)

Why is that important?

Because an official API approval (within any particular oil weight class), will protect you if there are any S65B40 engine related issues within the BMW factory warranty period of 4yrs. or 50,000 miles.

So even if BMW 'catches' you using something other than TWS, you would still be able to retain your engine warranty.

This also applies to any extended factory engine warranty coverage(6yrs./100k), any CPO warranty coverage (6yrs,/100k), and any third-party extended warranty coverage (?yrs/???k) you may have purchased through a dealer network or in private.

But if you chose to use another brand of 10w-60 oil (instead of the factory approved TWS) and that oil was NOT API approved, you're toast.

RED LINE oils are very good, but to protect their industry secrets concerning the synthetic oil chemistry they use, they do not submit samples to the American Petroleum Institute (API) that hands out these oil quality approvals.

They also refuse to abide by the API's strict guidelines on the percentage of certain additives in their oil products. So therefore, RED LINE oil products will never be API approved for any car...under any circumstances.

This is a very important (yet largely unknown) fact that many RED LINE users are unaware of...

I found this out by accident more than 10 years ago, when I was using RED LINE fluids in my E36 M3.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

No, unfortunately they don't make 10w-60 synthetic motor oil.

In fact, they don't have anything that's even close...

It was news to me, but sure enough, they do: http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130&pcid=21

[signes]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

For those of you who don't quite understand why any of this is important...

For my engine, it's Castrol 10w-60 TWS. Period.

Learn something new everyday (or in this case a lot!) Thanks for the details. Agree, I see no reason to move off Castrol.

[Trier Germany]

After reading this post i feel allot better running the engine hard on the track!

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Here's why using the RED LINE 10w-60 oil is a bad idea...

While that oil appears to be a suitable replacement for the TWS (on the surface), the truth is that oil is not API approved.

While RED LINE does claim that it's "recommended" for API SM/SL/SJ/SH/SG/CF and ACEA A3/B4...RED LINE oils are not, and have never been API approved. (officially)

Why is that important?

Because an official API approval (within any particular oil weight class), will protect you if there are any S65B40 engine related issues within the BMW factory warranty period of 4yrs. or 50,000 miles.

So even if BMW 'catches' you using something other than TWS, you would still be able to retain your engine warranty.

This also applies to any extended factory engine warranty coverage(6yrs./100k), any CPO warranty coverage (6yrs,/100k), and any third-party extended warranty coverage (?yrs/???k) you may have purchased through a dealer network or in private.

But if you chose to use another brand of 10w-60 oil (instead of the factory approved TWS) and that oil was NOT API approved, you're toast.

RED LINE oils are very good, but to protect their industry secrets concerning the synthetic oil chemistry they use, they do not submit samples to the American Petroleum Institute (API) that hands out these oil quality approvals.

They also refuse to abide by the API's strict guidelines on the percentage of certain additives in their oil products. So therefore, RED LINE oil products will never be API approved for any car...under any circumstances.

This is a very important (yet largely unknown) fact that many RED LINE users are unaware of...

I found this out by accident more than 10 years ago, when I was using RED LINE fluids in my E36 M3.

That's a nice bit of information, but you know as well as I that MMWA precludes a warranty exclusion unless it can be shown that the oil contributed to the failure in the warranty claim. The testing and materials evaluations necessary to do that are more expensive than simply honoring the warranty claim. It would have to be a gross failure, clearly attributable to the oil for the denial of warranty to hold up.

By the way, I don't believe that race teams use street oil in race cars. I am certain that TWS is not used in BMW race cars. That's marketing hype, and that's why Redline produces race oils and street oils. The detergent levels in street oil is unnecessary in a race engine. Race oil doesn't have to last through 12 months of stop and go, repeated starts, condensation, and 15k mile oil change intervals.

[Nawaaz]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

That's a nice bit of information, but you know as well as I that MMWA precludes a warranty exclusion unless it can be shown that the oil contributed to the failure in the warranty claim. The testing and materials evaluations necessary to do that are more expensive than simply honoring the warranty claim. It would have to be a gross failure, clearly attributable to the oil for the denial of warranty to hold up.

By the way, I don't believe that race teams use street oil in race cars. I am certain that TWS is not used in BMW race cars. That's marketing hype, and that's why Redline produces race oils and street oils. The detergent levels in street oil is unnecessary in a race engine. Race oil doesn't have to last through 12 months of stop and go, repeated starts, condensation, and 15k mile oil change intervals.

I must say those are some very interesting points, Radiation.

[drvai]

Im afraid its likely fake. As mentioned before, you should just stick with the Castrol and play safe.

Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN

HERE ARE THE picture that I took with my phone! its bad quality

[2000gsr]

Doesn't the manual suggest that we can use a couple of other grades even though the 10w60 is recommended? Does anybody know what those grades are?

[BobsM3Coupe]

Originally Posted by 2000gsr

Doesn't the manual suggest that we can use a couple of other grades even though the 10w60 is recommended? Does anybody know what those grades are?

I'm looking in the owners manual supplement for my 2010 M3 and it says:

"If BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is not available, you can add small quantities of other synthetic oils in between oil changes. Only use oil with the following specifications:
Viscosity:
Preferred: SAE 10W-60;
alternative: SAE 10W-40, SAE 5W-50 or SAE 10W-50

Specification:
API SJ/CF, API SK/CF or higher


So for a regular oil change, you are suppossed to use the Castrol Synthetic
10W-60 oil that Castrol makes just for use in the BMW M vehicles. I thought there was a law somewhere that says if the manufacturer specifies only a certain oil can be used in their vehicle, then they have to provide the oil for free. But I'm sure BMW has an answer for that question. No doubt that they include the maintenance for 4 years, but what happens after 4 years?

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe

I thought there was a law somewhere that says if the manufacturer specifies only a certain oil can be used in their vehicle, then they have to provide the oil for free. But I'm sure BMW has an answer for that question. No doubt that they include the maintenance for 4 years, but what happens after 4 years?

That requirement, if it exists, would only apply to maintaining warranty. After 4 years the warranty expires, so you are free to use any oil you want, but it is not recommended.

[bobbyd1961]

i just had to add 3/4s of a liter at 13500 miles. i had oil changes at 1500 and 7500 miles. first time adding. is that normal? the dealer said its normal to add 1 liter per 1000 miles. i was shocked

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by bobbyd1961

i just had to add 3/4s of a liter at 13500 miles. i had oil changes at 1500 and 7500 miles. first time adding. is that normal? the dealer said its normal to add 1 liter per 1000 miles. i was shocked

If I follow you, 3/4 liter used in 6k miles is very good. A liter/1k is would be very high, but may still be considered in spec by BMW.

[bobbyd1961]

im only 1500 miles from my 15000 mile oil change. the unusual part about it was it appeared to drop suddenly from full to 1/2 to down 3/4s. but i went to bmw bought 10w 60 (2 liters) and added 3/4s. lets see if i need to add in a month.
i still think that 1 liter for a 1000 miles is excessive and i hope i never see that.